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| LEE Sau Dan... |
 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:51 am |
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[quote]"Joachim" == Joachim Pense <snob at (no spam) pense-mainz.eu> writes:
[/quote]
Joachim> So you do have in fact a concept of "verb" and "noun" in
Joachim> Chinese?
Yes and No.
No, if you take a word completely out of context.
Yes, if you put the word back into a sentence and ask whether it
functions as a verb or noun in that sentence.
Isn't that like infinitives in German? They can be used as nouns, with
a neuter gender, capitalized when written. Like the first Essen in
"Essen ist alles, was wir beim Tagesausflug nach Essen gemacht haben."
(But Mandarin has a tendency to use some words exclusive as nouns and
other exclusively as verbs/adjectives. Cantonese less so.)
Joachim> Do you use sentence melody as (compulsory or optional)
Joachim> topic marker?
Basically no. This would conflict with the tone system, which is so
crucial to identifying the words. (Your question is like asking whether
vowels would be shifted in English to mark certain words for whatever
purposes.)
As short pause may be used. Loudness may also occasionally be used.
I've also observed that in Mandarin, the tone-sandhi rule (#3, #3 -> #2,
#3) doesn't apply across the topic-comment boundary. But this can only
be identified when the boundary is between 2 syllables of the tone #3
(before sandhi-ing). (We've talked about this years ago in sci.lang.)
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:18 pm |
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On Oct 27, 12:51 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
[quote]"Joachim" == Joachim Pense <s... at (no spam) pense-mainz.eu> writes:
Joachim> So you do have in fact a concept of "verb" and "noun" in
Joachim> Chinese?
Yes and No.
No, if you take a word completely out of context.
Yes, if you put the word back into a sentence and ask whether it
functions as a verb or noun in that sentence.
Isn't that like infinitives in German? They can be used as nouns, with
a neuter gender, capitalized when written. Like the first Essen in
"Essen ist alles, was wir beim Tagesausflug nach Essen gemacht haben."
(But Mandarin has a tendency to use some words exclusive as nouns and
other exclusively as verbs/adjectives. Cantonese less so.)
Joachim> Do you use sentence melody as (compulsory or optional)
Joachim> topic marker?
Basically no. This would conflict with the tone system, which is so
crucial to identifying the words. (Your question is like asking whether
vowels would be shifted in English to mark certain words for whatever
purposes.)
[/quote]
As, of course, they are: sing sang sung song
[quote]As short pause may be used. Loudness may also occasionally be used.
I've also observed that in Mandarin, the tone-sandhi rule (#3, #3 -> #2,
#3) doesn't apply across the topic-comment boundary. But this can only
be identified when the boundary is between 2 syllables of the tone #3
(before sandhi-ing). (We've talked about this years ago in sci.lang.)[/quote] |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:47 pm |
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Joachim Pense wrote:
[quote]Bart Mathias (in sci.lang):
Joachim Pense wrote:
[...]
At least Japanese is a fairly typical OV language.
BTW, can the verb also be a topic? I guess it can't, and if you want to
say "as for learning, I'm doing it" would be something like
"narau-koto-wa, watashi suru".
If you don't put a "-wa" (contrastive) after "watasi" that sounds to me
more like "narau koto-wa watasi(ga) suru" 'As for learning, I (am the
one who) will do it."
Yes.
(A bit silly either way. How about "narau koto-wa ii koto-da")?
Well, but what I wanted to discuss is not substantivation of a verb, but
topicalisation. Can you say: "Learn I do."? Something like this.
[/quote]
I'm not sure that there is Japanese that can quite do that. This raises
the question in my mind whether "learn" in "I learn" and "I do learn"
are exactly the same "part of speech." The former is clearly finite, but
is the latter?
"Narau koto-wa (watsi-wa) suru" comes out as you first suggested, "(As
for) learn*ing*, I do it," clearly substantivized and no longer any kind
of verb, finite or otherwise.
There is also "Narai-wa suru" = "I do (emphasized with falling pitch)
learn (emphasized with dipping pitch)" or "Learn, I do (same enunciation
each word)." Maybe this is, then, your "Learn I do," and that "narai" is
arguably still a verb, although there is a homonymous noun, but the
sense seems to me to be more contrast than simple topic.
Arguments like this were often tagged with a "BIANANS" in sci.lang.japan.
Bart Mathias |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:54 pm |
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LEE Sau Dan wrote:
[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <mathias at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
Bart> Joachim Pense wrote:
[...] At least Japanese is a fairly typical OV language.
BTW, can the verb also be a topic? I guess it can't, and if you
want to say "as for learning, I'm doing it" would be something
like "narau-koto-wa, watashi suru".
Bart> If you don't put a "-wa" (contrastive) after "watasi" that
Bart> sounds to me more like "narau koto-wa watasi(ga) suru" 'As for
Bart> learning, I (am the one who) will do it."
Well... why not drop the "watashi-ga" altogether?
Bart> (A bit silly either way. How about "narau koto-wa ii
Bart> koto-da")?
Why not "narau koto-wa ii?" (informal)
or "narau koto-wa ii desu-ka?" (formal) ?
(I'm not sure if these are good Japanese questions, though.)
[/quote]
Why not indeed? Only depends on whether you want to say something like
"Learning is a good thing" (mine) or something like "Is learning good?"
(yourn). (Many native speakers will say your formal version is bad
Japanese, and they would not say it, on the grounds that it puts a
"copula" after a tensed adjective. Then they will use the form
themselves apparently without noticing it. Of course "desu" so used
cannot be a "copula"--it's merely a politeness indicator.) |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:40 am |
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[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <mathias at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
[/quote]
Bart> (A bit silly either way. How about "narau koto-wa ii
Bart> koto-da")?
[quote]
Why not "narau koto-wa ii?" (informal) or "narau koto-wa ii
desu-ka?" (formal) ?
(I'm not sure if these are good Japanese questions, though.)
[/quote]
Bart> Why not indeed? Only depends on whether you want to say
Bart> something like "Learning is a good thing" (mine) or something
Bart> like "Is learning good?" (yourn).
Although "ii" literally means "good", asking someone whether something
is "ii desuka" can mean "don't you think it's a good idea to..." or
"would you not mind if I ...", etc. It's not asking for opinion, but
for permission.
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 pm |
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LEE Sau Dan wrote:
[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <mathias at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
Bart> (A bit silly either way. How about "narau koto-wa ii
Bart> koto-da")?
Why not "narau koto-wa ii?" (informal) or "narau koto-wa ii
desu-ka?" (formal) ?
(I'm not sure if these are good Japanese questions, though.)
Bart> Why not indeed? Only depends on whether you want to say
Bart> something like "Learning is a good thing" (mine) or something
Bart> like "Is learning good?" (yourn).
LSD Although "ii" literally means "good", asking someone whether something
LSD is "ii desuka" can mean "don't you think it's a good idea to..." or
LSD "would you not mind if I ...", etc. It's not asking for opinion, but
LSD for permission.
[/quote]
True, but I don't see the point in the current context.
Who would understand "narau koto-wa ii-desu-ka?" as "naratte-mo
ii-desu-ka?" Dare-mo, I bet.
Bart Mathias |
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