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| Christopher Ingham... |
 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:50 pm |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:44 am |
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On 2009-10-11, Poetic Justice <paradiselost at (no spam) webtv.net> wrote:
[quote:cbba456901]"The main banquet hall was circular and
constantly revolved day and night, like the
heavens".
"The main dining- room was circular, and
its roof revolved day and night, in time
with the sky".
{{The friction at the pivot and at the stone
spheres caused by the weight of this floor
would need quite alot of force to keep this
in motion?}}
Whiskers wrote;
Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly,
particularly if they are polished and
greased.
 Yes, today they work unbelievable well but (and I am just assuming)
we are possibly talking stone ball-bearings slowly rolling within
something to hold it in position [O].
 With the rolling top sections supporting a rotating floor which would
need a strong track like iron or stone to prevent wear.
 I'm assuming because they ID'ed these as "stone spheres" vs "stone
balls" that they are quite large and supported alot of weight?
[/quote:cbba456901]
The implication of the report I've seen is that the "spherical mechanism"
is large.
[quote:cbba456901]Â The stone could have been polished to reduce friction but I think
grease/lubricant would only help reduce friction in what it was seated
within and then only the sides of the sphere as it rotated.
Because the weight on the top and bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?
[/quote:cbba456901]
The pressure at each contact point depends on how many 'ball bearings'
and other supports there were. It has been suggested here that the moving
floor may have floated on water, in which case the load would be evenly
distributed over the whole of the submerged area - and the moving floor
would not need to be self-supporting, so could be a lot simpler and
lighter - essentially, a basic raft. That arrangement would also make it
possible for a very simple flow of water around the chamber to carry the
floating floor with it.
High precision of time-keeping wouldn't be easy, but there were no
high-precision time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
The "spherical mechanism" then only needs to prevent the floating floor
from tilting too much - and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged, that
would provide some lubrication (and the water would support some of the
weight of the balls too, reducing pressure and wear).
But if the floor was floating, the need for large stone spheres is
difficult to understand. Three or four cart wheels attached to the moving
floor would serve to prevent 'capsize'.
[quote:cbba456901]
Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't
exactly fast, either, so noise and vibration
may not have been significant.
I put the 2 Suetonius translations in this thread at the top ('roof' is
wrong).
  If the rotation was "in time with the sky" vs "like the heavens" I
don't think dining and chatting guests would notice a 1.3in/min-6.5ft/hr
movement of the floor unless the circular room was immense.
  And why follow the sky inside a building even if it had windows
with a 360* view and an oculus?
 Would you really notice anything while occupied with dining and
chit-chat?
[/quote:cbba456901]
To display ingenuity and mastery of the heavens? Rotating restaurants are
not unknown in the present - 'novelty' seems to be an adequate impulse for
creating them (although often not enough to keep them moving, or
profitable).
[quote:cbba456901]Â Â I just think to make this rotating dining room a cool novelty ya
gotta go faster:).
  Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something cool on the circular
ceiling like a 360* sky with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall painting,
sculptures, etc.
 Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1 revolution per day but at
say 0.25 RPM it would likely be noticeable?
[/quote:cbba456901]
Until it all fell apart. Did Nero want an impressive toy to entertain his
guests in a cultured and gracious manner, or did he want to scare them on
a fairground ride?
[quote:cbba456901]
Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
would make things quieter, too.
With massive weight and they're saying it ran 24/7 they would wear-out
in no time.
[/quote:cbba456901]
<shrug> I don't think expense was a major concern - indeed, massive
expense was rather the point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
[...]
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Poetic Justice... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:29 pm |
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[quote:5175efbca9]{{Because the weight on the top and
bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?}}
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Whiskers wrote;
[quote:5175efbca9]The pressure at each contact point
depends on how many 'ball bearings' and
other supports there were.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Just focusing on the stone spheres; Yes more would distribute the weight
but I don't think they would help in cutting-down friction/resistance of
the floor's motion mainly because we're talking still about stone balls
and not a 20C hi-tech steel bearing.
[quote:5175efbca9]It has been suggested here that the
moving floor may have floated on water,
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Yes that was my guess:-).
[quote:5175efbca9]in which case the load would be evenly
distributed over the whole of the
submerged area
[/quote:5175efbca9]
True.
[quote:5175efbca9]- and the moving floor would not need to
be self-supporting, so could be a lot
simpler and lighter - essentially, a basic
raft.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
True.
[quote:5175efbca9]That arrangement would also make it
possible for a very simple flow of water
around the chamber to carry the floating
floor with it.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
True.
[quote:5175efbca9]High precision of time-keeping wouldn't
be easy, but there were no high-precision
time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
If it was to follow the Heavens 24hr cycle you'd want it in the ballpark
at least but yes it wouldn't need to be exact.
[quote:5175efbca9]The "spherical mechanism" then only
needs to prevent the floating floor from
tilting too much -
[/quote:5175efbca9]
That was my guess also.
[quote:5175efbca9]and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged,
that would provide some lubrication (and
the water would support some of the
weight of the balls too, reducing pressure
and wear).
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Plus contact would be light and occasional.
[quote:5175efbca9]But if the floor was floating, the need for
large stone spheres is difficult to
understand.
Three or four cart wheels attached to the
moving floor would serve to prevent
'capsize'.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
I thought of that also, so much easier, *alot* less resistance and
vibration & noise probably eliminated.
[quote:5175efbca9]{{And why follow the sky inside a building
even if it had windows with a 360* view
and an oculus?
Would you really notice anything while
occupied with dining and chit-chat?}}
To display ingenuity and mastery of the
heavens?
[/quote:5175efbca9]
But if you can't notice *anything* different at 1 revolution per day
during this social function, I don't see the point?
[quote:5175efbca9]Rotating restaurants are not unknown in
the present
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Yes and the diners *see* the rotation which is the novelty.
[quote:5175efbca9]- 'novelty' seems to be an adequate
impulse for creating them
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Agree.
[quote:5175efbca9]{{I just think to make this rotating dining
room a cool novelty ya gotta go faster:).
Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something
cool on the circular ceiling like a 360* sky
with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall
painting, sculptures, etc.
Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1
revolution per day but at say 0.25 RPM it
would likely be noticeable?}}
Until it all fell apart.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Why? at (no spam) 1 revolution every 4mins?
The speed is like walking 156ft in 4min which is extremely slow.
[quote:5175efbca9]Did Nero want an impressive toy to
entertain his guests in a cultured and
gracious manner,
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Hard to entertain them if they can't notice movement with the rotation at (no spam)
1 per 24hrs.
[quote:5175efbca9]or did he want to scare them on a
fairground ride?
[/quote:5175efbca9]
With 1 turn every 4mins, ya ain't gonna be selling tickets for that
ride:).
[quote:5175efbca9]Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
would make things quieter, too.
{{With massive weight and they're saying
it ran 24/7 they would wear-out in no
time.}}
[/quote:5175efbca9]
[quote:5175efbca9]shrug> I don't think expense was a major
concern
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Neither do I. It's the down time for no reason, *if* the stone balls
supported the massive weight and it ran 24/7 it might be a daily fix.
And Romans tended to build things to last.
Plus there might be a reason that it ran 24/7 (if that's true) and
shutting-down for maintainance might be a major hassle?
[quote:5175efbca9]- indeed, massive expense was rather the
point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
[/quote:5175efbca9]
Yes it was and somewhat typical.
I recall Julius Caesar built a villa I believe in the Naples area and
when it was finished or very close to being finished he had it torn
down.
And the reason was just to show-off his wealth.
Regards, Walter |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:11 pm |
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On 2009-10-12, Poetic Justice <paradiselost at (no spam) webtv.net> wrote:
[quote:7324aed147]{{Because the weight on the top and
bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?}}
Whiskers wrote;
The pressure at each contact point
depends on how many 'ball bearings' and
other supports there were.
Just focusing on the stone spheres; Yes more would distribute the weight
but I don't think they would help in cutting-down friction/resistance of
the floor's motion mainly because we're talking still about stone balls
and not a 20C hi-tech steel bearing.
[/quote:7324aed147]
Even so, the reduction in friction compared with a 'plain bearing' would
be very considerable.
[quote:7324aed147]It has been suggested here that the
moving floor may have floated on water,
  Yes that was my guess:-).
in which case the load would be evenly
distributed over the whole of the
submerged area
True.
- and the moving floor would not need to
be self-supporting, so could be a lot
simpler and lighter - essentially, a basic
raft.
True.
That arrangement would also make it
possible for a very simple flow of water
around the chamber to carry the floating
floor with it.
True.
High precision of time-keeping wouldn't
be easy, but there were no high-precision
time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
If it was to follow the Heavens 24hr cycle you'd want it in the ballpark
at least but yes it wouldn't need to be exact.
[/quote:7324aed147]
A slave to regulate the water flow to keep the thing in step with the sun
or stars would be adequate.
[quote:7324aed147]
The "spherical mechanism" then only
needs to prevent the floating floor from
tilting too much -
That was my guess also.
and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged,
that would provide some lubrication (and
the water would support some of the
weight of the balls too, reducing pressure
and wear).
Plus contact would be light and occasional.
But if the floor was floating, the need for
large stone spheres is difficult to
understand.
Three or four cart wheels attached to the
moving floor would serve to prevent
'capsize'.
I thought of that also, so much easier, *alot* less resistance and
vibration & noise probably eliminated.
[/quote:7324aed147]
Perhaps the heavy stone spheres were there solely to make an impressive
noise?
[quote:7324aed147]{{And why follow the sky inside a building
even if it had windows with a 360* view
and an oculus?
Would you really notice anything while
occupied with dining and chit-chat?}}
To display ingenuity and mastery of the
heavens?
But if you can't notice *anything* different at 1 revolution per day
during this social function, I don't see the point?
[/quote:7324aed147]
This would be a Roman party, not a quick nip into a fast-food joint; the
guests would expect to be there for hours, if not days. I think that
making a whole room move in time with the sun and stars would be far more
impressive than just making something spin around.
Ancient Romans would have been familiar with the movements of the stars,
and would be able to see them very clearly most nights. A room that moved
so that a star or the sun rose and set in one window, and never moved
beyond that window, would be very notable, demonstrating not only great
wealth and engineering skill but also leading-edge astronomical and
mathematical knowledge.
[quote:7324aed147]Rotating restaurants are not unknown in
the present
 Yes and the diners *see* the rotation which is the novelty.
- 'novelty' seems to be an adequate
impulse for creating them
Agree.
{{I just think to make this rotating dining
room a cool novelty ya gotta go faster:).
Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something
cool on the circular ceiling like a 360* sky
with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall
painting, sculptures, etc.
Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1
revolution per day but at say 0.25 RPM it
would likely be noticeable?}}
Until it all fell apart.
Why? at (no spam) 1 revolution every 4mins?
The speed is like walking 156ft in 4min which is extremely slow.
[/quote:7324aed147]
But we have a very large mass of room and machine and people and furniture
and cups of drink and the 'driving-water', all seperately exhibiting the
phenomenon of 'momentum' (= inertia). The faster you make it move, the
harder it is to control and the greater the friction, vibration, and wear.
[quote:7324aed147]
Did Nero want an impressive toy to
entertain his guests in a cultured and
gracious manner,
Hard to entertain them if they can't notice movement with the rotation at (no spam)
1 per 24hrs.
[/quote:7324aed147]
I think they would have noticed that and been very impressed by it.
[quote:7324aed147]or did he want to scare them on a
fairground ride?
 With 1 turn every 4mins, ya ain't gonna be selling tickets for that
ride:).
[/quote:7324aed147]
But people are going to experience all sorts of weird effects. Not a
roller-coaster, certainly, but a very strange environment.
[quote:7324aed147]Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
would make things quieter, too.
{{With massive weight and they're saying
it ran 24/7 they would wear-out in no
time.}}
shrug> I don't think expense was a major
concern
Neither do I. It's the down time for no reason, *if* the stone balls
supported the massive weight and it ran 24/7 it might be a daily fix.
 And Romans tended to build things to last.
Plus there might be a reason that it ran 24/7 (if that's true) and
shutting-down for maintainance might be a major hassle?
[/quote:7324aed147]
Unless bouyancy water had to be drained for access, at one revolution per
day lengths of padding for the bearings could be replaced while the thing
was movinng.
[quote:7324aed147]
- indeed, massive expense was rather the
point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
Yes it was and somewhat typical.
I recall Julius Caesar built a villa I believe in the Naples area and
when it was finished or very close to being finished he had it torn
down.
 And the reason was just to show-off his wealth.
Regards, Walter
[/quote:7324aed147]
.... plus the likelyhood that Nero was more or less insane. While he was
mostly benevolent towards the plebians and had military success, he was
'eccentric' and it was dangerous to be close to him. His extravagance
eventually turned the ruling classes against him.
(He was also emperor when governor Paulinus massacred most of Britain's
Driuds and defeated the rebellion of Boudicca, which doesn't make him more
popular with me!)
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Odysseus... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:37 pm |
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In article <slrnhd73c0.bp2.catwheezel at (no spam) ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel at (no spam) operamail.com> wrote:
<snip>
[quote:5cb88a3d5e]This would be a Roman party, not a quick nip into a fast-food joint; the
guests would expect to be there for hours, if not days. I think that
making a whole room move in time with the sun and stars would be far more
impressive than just making something spin around.
Ancient Romans would have been familiar with the movements of the stars,
and would be able to see them very clearly most nights. A room that moved
so that a star or the sun rose and set in one window, and never moved
beyond that window, would be very notable, demonstrating not only great
wealth and engineering skill but also leading-edge astronomical and
mathematical knowledge.
[/quote:5cb88a3d5e]
More practically, for a banquet that started in the afternoon, one
wouldn't have to adjust the blinds (or whatever), or shift one's
position, to get in or out of the sun: shadows would lengthen but keep
their orientation throughout the event.
--
Odysseus |
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| deowll... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:49 pm |
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"Poetic Justice" <paradiselost at (no spam) webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12521-4AD375A5-4241 at (no spam) storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
[quote:f84c017c41]{{Because the weight on the top and
bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?}}
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Whiskers wrote;
[quote:f84c017c41]The pressure at each contact point
depends on how many 'ball bearings' and
other supports there were.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Just focusing on the stone spheres; Yes more would distribute the weight
but I don't think they would help in cutting-down friction/resistance of
the floor's motion mainly because we're talking still about stone balls
and not a 20C hi-tech steel bearing.
[quote:f84c017c41]It has been suggested here that the
moving floor may have floated on water,
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Yes that was my guess:-).
_____________________________________________________
Nero had the wealth to have floated in on a pool of olive oil. This would
have reduced the friction. Bronze or granite balls running in grooves would
have taken care of any tendency to tilt or even a wooden wheel with a steel
rim or six. He could have had slaves turn it and they could have largely
done it by eyeballing the sky at night and using a very primitive sun dial
during the day. You don't have to get all that complex here. Any good Roman
military engineer should have been able to pull this off.
________________________________________________-
[quote:f84c017c41]in which case the load would be evenly
distributed over the whole of the
submerged area
[/quote:f84c017c41]
True.
[quote:f84c017c41]- and the moving floor would not need to
be self-supporting, so could be a lot
simpler and lighter - essentially, a basic
raft.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
True.
[quote:f84c017c41]That arrangement would also make it
possible for a very simple flow of water
around the chamber to carry the floating
floor with it.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
True.
[quote:f84c017c41]High precision of time-keeping wouldn't
be easy, but there were no high-precision
time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
If it was to follow the Heavens 24hr cycle you'd want it in the ballpark
at least but yes it wouldn't need to be exact.
[quote:f84c017c41]The "spherical mechanism" then only
needs to prevent the floating floor from
tilting too much -
[/quote:f84c017c41]
That was my guess also.
[quote:f84c017c41]and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged,
that would provide some lubrication (and
the water would support some of the
weight of the balls too, reducing pressure
and wear).
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Plus contact would be light and occasional.
[quote:f84c017c41]But if the floor was floating, the need for
large stone spheres is difficult to
understand.
Three or four cart wheels attached to the
moving floor would serve to prevent
'capsize'.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
I thought of that also, so much easier, *alot* less resistance and
vibration & noise probably eliminated.
[quote:f84c017c41]{{And why follow the sky inside a building
even if it had windows with a 360* view
and an oculus?
Would you really notice anything while
occupied with dining and chit-chat?}}
To display ingenuity and mastery of the
heavens?
[/quote:f84c017c41]
But if you can't notice *anything* different at 1 revolution per day
during this social function, I don't see the point?
[quote:f84c017c41]Rotating restaurants are not unknown in
the present
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Yes and the diners *see* the rotation which is the novelty.
[quote:f84c017c41]- 'novelty' seems to be an adequate
impulse for creating them
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Agree.
[quote:f84c017c41]{{I just think to make this rotating dining
room a cool novelty ya gotta go faster:).
Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something
cool on the circular ceiling like a 360* sky
with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall
painting, sculptures, etc.
Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1
revolution per day but at say 0.25 RPM it
would likely be noticeable?}}
Until it all fell apart.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Why? at (no spam) 1 revolution every 4mins?
The speed is like walking 156ft in 4min which is extremely slow.
[quote:f84c017c41]Did Nero want an impressive toy to
entertain his guests in a cultured and
gracious manner,
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Hard to entertain them if they can't notice movement with the rotation at (no spam)
1 per 24hrs.
[quote:f84c017c41]or did he want to scare them on a
fairground ride?
[/quote:f84c017c41]
With 1 turn every 4mins, ya ain't gonna be selling tickets for that
ride:).
[quote:f84c017c41]Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
would make things quieter, too.
{{With massive weight and they're saying
it ran 24/7 they would wear-out in no
time.}}
[/quote:f84c017c41]
[quote:f84c017c41]shrug> I don't think expense was a major
concern
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Neither do I. It's the down time for no reason, *if* the stone balls
supported the massive weight and it ran 24/7 it might be a daily fix.
And Romans tended to build things to last.
Plus there might be a reason that it ran 24/7 (if that's true) and
shutting-down for maintainance might be a major hassle?
[quote:f84c017c41]- indeed, massive expense was rather the
point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
[/quote:f84c017c41]
Yes it was and somewhat typical.
I recall Julius Caesar built a villa I believe in the Naples area and
when it was finished or very close to being finished he had it torn
down.
And the reason was just to show-off his wealth.
Regards, Walter |
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| Anders... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:24 pm |
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Guest
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Before we get too far into theorising about the speed of revolution, I would
like to bring the following to your attention: Walter (Poetic Justice) asked
about the translation in alt.language.latin 3 days ago and got this answer
from Ed Cryer:
"Praecipua cenationum rotunda, quae perpetuo diebus ac noctibus vice mundi
circumageretur."
It seems that the translation "in time with the sky" stems from Robert
Graves' 1957 version of Suetonius' The Twelve Caesars, Penguin 1957. I'll
give his translation here. You'll find the exact wording repeated all over
the Net. "The main dining-room was circular, and its roof revolved slowly,
day and night, in time with the sky."
Unless Graves had a different Latin text there are two mistakes here;
translations of "vice mundi" and "perpetuo". I'd add a third; "mundi" should
be "world". I suspect Graves slipped up because he didn't know that anybody
in Suetonius' age knew about our planet revolving. He'd not heard of
Aristarchus of Samos. Here's my translation; "The main dining room was
circular, and it rotated constantly day and night like the world."
Ed
Translation word-by-word: "The circular main dining room, which perpetually
days and nights went round like the world." - The meaning is the same.
Personally I think that it doesn't matter, whether the earth or the universe
revolves; the outcome to Suetonius would be the same. But Graves - like many
others - obviously didn't believe that Suetonius' description was accurate,
hence the 'interpretation' instead of an exact translation.
Pertaining the exact speed, I Googled "revolving restaurant" and found a
little info: most modern revolving restaurants take ~1 turn per hour. They
are a good deal larger in diameter than Nero's, but the speed sounds
reasonable. I don't think it was ever intended as a merry-go-round, mainly
because it would cause dishes and other tableware to slide off the tables.
If the floor was floating, I think Suetonius would have mentioned it, even
if it was drained in his days; on the other hand the 'perpetual movement'
indicates that there was some kind of non-human force turning it, which
would be noteworthy too; maybe we'll just have to settle with that Suetonius
wrote a biography and not a book of engineering. If the stone spheres were
running in a grooved rail of very hard wood, e.g. Golden-Chain (Laburnum),
and the groove was kept well-oiled, it would have reduced the friction
considerably, so the wear would be minimal - maybe an annual replacement of
the rails would suffice.
Just my two cents,
Anders. |
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| Anders... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:49 pm |
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Hi all,
Can anyone provide a link to a plan of the entire Domus Aurea (afa it is
known)?
So far I have only been able to find plans of the Oppian wing; there must be
more out there...
Best regards
Anders. |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:26 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 26, 4:49 pm, "Anders" <HotRod at (no spam) HotSpot> wrote:
[quote]Hi all,
Can anyone provide a link to a plan of the entire Domus Aurea (afa it is
known)?
So far I have only been able to find plans of the Oppian wing; there must be
more out there...
[/quote]
Most commentators infer from the vague descriptions in Suetonius,
Tacitus, and Martial concerning the all-encompassing extent of the
Golden House that it was a series of contiguous properties comprised
of all the imperial domus on the Palatine, the valley of the (future)
Colosseum and adjacent hillsides, and the Gardens of Maecenas on the
Esquiline.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/artandarchitecture/nero%27s.jpg
In this reconstruction looking east the NE Palatine is shown in the
upper right. Immediately to the left is seen the porticoed Neronian
monumentalization of the Sacra Via leading to the atrium of the Golden
House, where stands the Colossus of Nero. The stagnum is seen in the
extreme upper right (though it was probably rectangular).
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indiana.edu/~class2/c102/net_id/images/L139.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.indiana.edu/~class2/c102/&usg=__vC2lhPzPpYo_bxf5R1s6fw8fw6w=&h=400&w=554&sz=134&hl=en&start=1&sig2=CS3dyyC5wBU9PW_9QH4XnA&um=1&tbnid=dFztCUPOZMy_VM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnero%2Bgolden%2Bhouse%2Batrium%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4HPIB_en___US216%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=J6XsSoPtGYykMOX79YMM
Edward Champlin, however, in two extended essays ("God and Man in the
Golden House," in M. Cima and E. La Rocca, eds.,_Horti romani: Atti
del Convegno Internazionale Roma, 4-6 maggio 1995_, Rome, 1998,
333-44; and_Nero_, Cambridge, MA, 2003, 178-209) argues that the
extent of the Domus Aurea has been "greatly exaggerated," and should
include only the Oppian (a spur of the Esquiline) wing and the valley
of the Colosseum, where was located Nero's artificial lake (_stagnum_)
and surrounding parks, all of which the Oppian palace, at a precise
east-west orientation, looked down upon. He builds his case based on a
careful contextualizing of events in Nero's reign and especially of
the solar ideology which preoccupied Nero in his final years; also,
the only details about the Domus Aurea which Suetonius provides
concern topographical features exclusive to this precise location.
http://books.google.com/books?id=30Wa-l9B5IoC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=One+House++As+in+private+relationships+the+closest+ties+were+the+strongest,&source=bl&ots=nw0ibhWZqx&sig=HTPoUUJpE4ZP9I2_VNS1rDShC_I&hl=en&ei=gqHsSoLtMZD0NdWDwf0B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=One%20House%20%20As%20in%20private%20relationships%20the%20closest%20ties%20were%20the%20strongest%2C&f=false
Regardless of whether the Domus Aurea was totally humongous or just
large, the properties in the putative humongous version were
nevertheless all still part of the imperial estate. These components
have all been investigated to varying degrees in many separate
studies, most of which unfortunately are not available online. The
most informed (reasonably up-to-date, in Italian) with extensive
bibliographies are to be found in the various subsections of the entry
"Domus Aurea," in_Lexicon Topographicum Urbis Romae_, vol.2, 1995,
("Domus Aurea," "vestibulum," "area dello stagnum," "porticus
triplices miliariae," "il palazzo sull'Esquilino," "complesso del
Palatino"), 49-64, by Alessandro Cassatella, Stefania Panella,
Emanuele Papi, and Laura Fabbrini (also addenda to the subsections on
the Palatine and triple portico in vol. 5, 1999, 244). See also the
entry "Domus Tiberiana," 89-93, in the same volume, by Clemens Krause.
Among more extensive studies, I'll just mention Maura Medri, "Suet.,
Nero, 31.1: Elementi e proposte per la ricostruzione del progetto
della Domus Aurea" (in C. Panella, ed.,_Meta Sudans I: Un'area sacra
in Palatio e la valle del Colosseo prima e dopo Nerone_, Rome, 1996,
165-8 , and Clemens Krause et al., in R. Locher and B. Sigel,
eds.,_Domus Tiberiana: Nuove ricerche -- Studi di restauro_(Zurich,
1985).
Much research of course is ongoing. In 2004, for example, the
Università degli Studi di Roma “La Sapienza” investigated a porticoed
road at the NE sector of the Palatine which led to the atrium of the
Domus Aurea on the Velian and continued south to a terrace supported
by vaulted corridors.
Christopher Ingham |
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| Anders... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:47 pm |
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Guest
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Hi Christopher,
Thank you for the detailed answer and the links; they were very
enlightening. Champlin has many interesting thoughts about Nero’s public
life, but if they really have found the revolving dining room on the
Palatine, the Domus Aurea was apparently ‘totally humongous’.
I hope you’ll keep us informed when more details become available.
Anders. |
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| Poetic Justice... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:53 pm |
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