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| Poetic Justice... |
 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:31 pm |
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Hopefully true but they do have the past rep for not letting the facts
get in the way of World-wide publicity:). Regards, Walter
http://tinyurl.com/ybw9xet
Nero's rotating banquet hall unveiled in Rome By MARTA FALCONI (AP)
ROME — Archaeologists on Tuesday unveiled what they think are the
remains of Roman emperor Nero's extravagant banquet hall, a circular
space that rotated day and night to imitate the Earth's movement and
impress his guests.
The room, part of Nero's Golden Palace, a sprawling residence built in
the first century A.D., is thought to have been built to entertain
government officials and VIPs, said lead archaeologist Francoise
Villedieu.
The emperor, known for his lavish and depraved lifestyle, ruled from 37
A.D. to 68 A.D.
The dig so far has turned up the foundations of the room, the rotating
mechanism underneath and part of an attached space believed to be the
kitchens, she said.
"This cannot be compared to anything that we know of in ancient Roman
architecture," Villedieu told reporters during a tour of the
cordoned-off dig.
She said the location of the discovery atop the Palatine Hill, the
rotating structure and references to it in ancient biographies of Nero
make the attribution to the emperor most likely.
The partially excavated site is part of the sumptuous residence, also
known by its Latin name Domus Aurea, which rose over the ruins of a fire
that destroyed much of Rome in A.D. 64.
The purported main dining room, with a diameter of over 50 feet (16
meters), rested upon a 13-foot (4-meter) wide pillar and four spherical
mechanisms that, likely powered by a constant flow of water, rotated the
structure.
The discovery was made during routine maintenance of the fragile
Palatine area, officials said.
Latin biographer and historian Suetonius, who chronicled his times and
wrote the biographies of 12 Roman rulers, refers to a main dining room
that revolved "day and night, in time with the sky."
Angelo Bottini, the state's top official for archaeology in Rome, said
the ceiling of the rotating room might have been the one mentioned by
Suetonius, who wrote of ivory panels sliding back and forth to shower
flowers and perfumes on the guests below.
"The heart of every activity in ancient Rome was the banquet, together
with some form of entertainment," Bottini said at the dig.
"Nero was like the sun, and people were revolving around the emperor."
That part of the palace — which sprawled across nearly 200 acres (80
hectares) occupying parts of four out of Rome's seven ancient hills —
offered a panoramic view over the Roman Forum and a lake, later drained
by Nero's successors to build the Colosseum, Bottini said.
Described by Suetonius as one of Rome's most cruel, depraved and
megalomaniac rulers, Nero often indulged in orgies and, fancying himself
an artist, entertained guests with his own performances of poetry and
songs.
However, Nero did not enjoy the frescoed halls and gold-encrusted
ceilings of his Golden Palace for too long. It was completed in A.D. 68
— the year the unpopular emperor committed suicide amid a revolt. |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:56 am |
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Guest
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On Sep 29, 7:31 pm, paradisel... at (no spam) webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
[quote:b5b7cd1537] Hopefully true but they do have the past rep for not letting the facts
get in the way of World-wide publicity:). Regards, Walterhttp://tinyurl.com/ybw9xet
Nero's rotating banquet hall unveiled in Rome By MARTA FALCONI (AP)
ROME — Archaeologists on Tuesday unveiled what they think are the
remains of Roman emperor Nero's extravagant banquet hall, a circular
space that rotated day and night to imitate the Earth's movement and
impress his guests.
The room, part of Nero's Golden Palace, a sprawling residence built in
the first century A.D., is thought to have been built to entertain
government officials and VIPs, said lead archaeologist Francoise
Villedieu.
The emperor, known for his lavish and depraved lifestyle, ruled from 37
A.D. to 68 A.D.
The dig so far has turned up the foundations of the room, the rotating
mechanism underneath and part of an attached space believed to be the
kitchens, she said.
"This cannot be compared to anything that we know of in ancient Roman
architecture," Villedieu told reporters during a tour of the
cordoned-off dig.
She said the location of the discovery atop the Palatine Hill, the
rotating structure and references to it in ancient biographies of Nero
make the attribution to the emperor most likely.
The partially excavated site is part of the sumptuous residence, also
known by its Latin name Domus Aurea, which rose over the ruins of a fire
that destroyed much of Rome in A.D. 64.
The purported main dining room, with a diameter of over 50 feet (16
meters), rested upon a 13-foot (4-meter) wide pillar and four spherical
mechanisms that, likely powered by a constant flow of water, rotated the
structure.
The discovery was made during routine maintenance of the fragile
Palatine area, officials said.
Latin biographer and historian Suetonius, who chronicled his times and
wrote the biographies of 12 Roman rulers, refers to a main dining room
that revolved "day and night, in time with the sky."
Angelo Bottini, the state's top official for archaeology in Rome, said
the ceiling of the rotating room might have been the one mentioned by
Suetonius, who wrote of ivory panels sliding back and forth to shower
flowers and perfumes on the guests below.
"The heart of every activity in ancient Rome was the banquet, together
with some form of entertainment," Bottini said at the dig.
"Nero was like the sun, and people were revolving around the emperor."
That part of the palace — which sprawled across nearly 200 acres (80
hectares) occupying parts of four out of Rome's seven ancient hills —
offered a panoramic view over the Roman Forum and a lake, later drained
by Nero's successors to build the Colosseum, Bottini said.
Described by Suetonius as one of Rome's most cruel, depraved and
megalomaniac rulers, Nero often indulged in orgies and, fancying himself
an artist, entertained guests with his own performances of poetry and
songs.
However, Nero did not enjoy the frescoed halls and gold-encrusted
ceilings of his Golden Palace for too long. It was completed in A.D. 68
— the year the unpopular emperor committed suicide amid a revolt.
[/quote:b5b7cd1537]
It matches the description, and is in the right place -- from what I
gather from one of the photos. It has been generally supposed that the
octagonal room in the Esquiline wing of the Domus Aurea was the one
described by Suetonius ("The main dining- room was circular, and its
roof revolved day and night, in time with the sky" --_Nero_31),
although there was no evidence of any mechanisms which would have made
it rotate.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kDNobJFWygcC&pg=PA259&lpg=PA259&dq=domus+aurea+octagonal+hall+suetonius&source=bl&ots=AUZvq2ssUo&sig=HoLRyMvuBKi2TFr5FXpcwcmgr5E&hl=en&ei=05LDSq_nMY6XlAee39zbBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=domus%20aurea%20octagonal%20hall%20suetonius&f=false
The press reports don't specify exactly where on the Palatine the
discovery is. The palaces on this hill comprised the vast complex of
Nero's Golden House, which extended to the Esquiline, the Caelian, and
the valley of the (future) Colosseum. One of the photos appears to be
of structures on the northeast sector (Villa Barberini) of the hill;
and Françoise Villedieu, the quoted archaeologist, has been involved
with the École Française de Rome for the past 25 years or so in the
excavations in this area of the Palatine. So evidently the dining hall
overlooked the Colosseum valley, which at the time contained Nero's
large artificial lake (_stagnum_) surrounded by a landscaped park and
"buildings made to resemble cities" (Suet._Nero_31), these "cities"
comprising, e.g., the Palatine and Esquiline wings of the palace, the
atrrium to the palace on the site of the future Temple of Venus and
Roma, and the artificial hill with a nymphaeum which later served as
the platform of the Temple of the Deified Claudius.
Christopher Ingham |
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| Poetic Justice... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:16 pm |
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Christopher Ingham wrote;
[quote:4985541b5d]It has been generally supposed that the
octagonal room in the Esquiline wing of
the Domus Aurea was the one described
by Suetonius ("The main dining- room was
circular, and its roof revolved day and
night, in time with the sky" --_Nero_31),
although there was no evidence of any
mechanisms which would have made it
rotate.
[/quote:4985541b5d]
Plus today they don't even think it was a dining-room and IIRC no
evidence of kitchens or anything connected with food or dining
preparations exists anywhere in that section of the Domus Aurea.
The 2 theories are;
That room had luxurious furnishings where guests could recline, relax
and think.
OR
An exhibition space for art lighted by the oculus.
Also the dome ceiling was never finished, I've taken the tour twice and
you can still see the plank impressions in the concrete from when it was
poured.
Either this room was never finished or there was a false ceiling in
place?
Christopher you read Latin so I have a question for you if you don't
mind.
What *exactly* does Suetonius say about this rotating banquet hall?
I have this translated quote from the 'Lacus Curtius' website;
"The main banquet hall was circular and constantly revolved day and
night, like the heavens".
It doesn't say the 'roof' but does seem to imply it (man
stationary-heavens revolve).
Also is there an ancient source or sources that state that it was the
floor or room that actually revolved?
All the articles are quoting Suetonius who seems to be on the revolving
ceiling bandwagon while they are stating it was the floor/room that
revolved???
Plus "it was discovered during routine maintance", "it was discovered
during excavations", "the mechanism has been discovered", "4 stone
spheres with an unidentifed liquid inside has been discovered" but yet
the only photos I've seen have been of a 4m wide brick-faced pillar:-)
(unless I've missed them?).
It's just that their past archaeological claims have made me very leery
of any new finds.
[quote:4985541b5d]The press reports don't specify exactly
where on the Palatine the discovery is.
[snip] One of the photos appears to be of
structures on the northeast sector (Villa
Barberini) of the hill; and Françoise
Villedieu, the quoted archaeologist, has
been involved with the École Française de
Rome for the past 25 years or so in the
excavations in this area of the Palatine.
So evidently the dining hall overlooked the
Colosseum valley, which at the time
contained Nero's large artificial lake
(_stagnum_) surrounded by a landscaped
park and "buildings made to resemble
cities"
[/quote:4985541b5d]
Thanks for narrowing down the location, I was curious.
[quote:4985541b5d]...and the artificial hill with a nymphaeum
which later served as the platform of the
Temple of the Deified Claudius.
[/quote:4985541b5d]
Pity Nero never saw the completed temple, I guess he was just too
broken-up by his mother's untimely death to complete mom's building
project to her late husband/uncle who was Nero's
step-father/great-uncle:-).
A long section of the nymphaeum's brick-faced concrete survives today
on the Via Claudia, nothing of the temple though but a small corner of
the travertine platform's arcade was used as a partial base for a C12
belltower.
Regards, Walter |
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| rick++... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:08 am |
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The colleseums were supposed to of have various mechanical works
under the floors. Is there a collection of their descriptions
somewhere? |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:24 am |
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On 2009-10-03, Matt Giwer <jull43 at (no spam) tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
[quote:93decea8fb] Reading what has been posted here it is not clear whether the
entire room rotated or just the ceiling rotated. Anyone know or do I have
to look it up?
[/quote:93decea8fb]
Suetonius says the room rotated. Later commentators couldn't believe it
and assumed he meant that only the ceiling rotated. If this latest find
is being interpreted correctly, Suetonius got his description right. It's
clearly a massive and complex construction, quite in keeping with Nero's
megalomaniac reputation
<http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iQPJJbma8j1ft1YJbsTGFMJlyY_wD9B1A14O0>
The Greeks (before the Romans destroyed rather a lot) were pretty good at
designing marvellous machines; even the Romans didn't manage to destroy
that knowledge entirely. For example
<http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm>.
You'll probably be particularly pleased with the gadgets 'to open the
temple doors when a fire is lit on the alter' and such marvels <WEG>
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:59 am |
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On Oct 3, 7:24 am, Whiskers <catwhee... at (no spam) operamail.com> wrote:
[quote:60553bc610]The Greeks (before the Romans destroyed rather a lot) were pretty good at
designing marvellous machines; even the Romans didn't manage to destroy
that knowledge entirely. For example
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm>.
[/quote:60553bc610]
What do you mean by "the Romans destroyed rather a lot," and " even
the Romans didn't manage to destroy that knowledge [of marvelous
machinery] entirely"?
The Roman influence on the Greek world was emphatically benign. In
fact, a cultural Hellenic renascence was ongoing at the time Heron
lived, fostered by Roman rule.
Christopher Ingham |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:40 pm |
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On 2009-10-03, Christopher Ingham <christopheringham at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[quote:9d60fccbd9]On Oct 3, 7:24Â am, Whiskers <catwheezel at (no spam) operamail.com> wrote:
The Greeks (before the Romans destroyed rather a lot) were pretty good at
designing marvellous machines; even the Romans didn't manage to destroy
that knowledge entirely. Â For example
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm>.
What do you mean by "the Romans destroyed rather a lot," and " even
the Romans didn't manage to destroy that knowledge [of marvelous
machinery] entirely"?
[/quote:9d60fccbd9]
The most striking example of what vanished under the Roman military
machine, is the astonishment that surrounded "the Antikythera device" when
it's nature was realised. Nothing comparable was made again until at least
the 17th century.
The Romans were very good at exploiting technology developed by others,
when it suited their own need for impressive structures or more efficient
food production and distribution (eg the Etruscan arch, Carthaginian
concrete and shipbuilding, Greek surveying and writing and
represantational art, "Celtic" metalwork) but their own innovations were
generally restricted to developing and expanding the ideas they got from
others. They were not much interested in 'natural philosophy' or what we
would call 'science' or 'mathematics' for their own sake. The Roman
attitude to such matters persisted until Islamic scholars began to take an
interest in what they found in the remains of the Greek libraries, and
spread that knowledge into Europe once again.
I feel that this Roman legacy held back science and technology and
philosophy for about a millenium. Which I suppose is an accomplishment of
a sort.
[quote:9d60fccbd9]The Roman influence on the Greek world was emphatically benign.
[/quote:9d60fccbd9]
The Romans were greeted with garlands and sweet-meats and willingly given
all the property and slaves they asked for, and were frequently begged to
stay and never go nor let the natives own or run anything?
<http://www.scribd.com/doc/13971710/The-Greek-World-Under-Roman-Sway-From-Polybius-to-Plutarch>
(horrible site; requires "Flash" to display a 19th century book somewhat
ineptly scanned my Microsoft). That may be an old book, but it's not
pre-Roman (or particularly pro-Roman).
[quote:9d60fccbd9]In
fact, a cultural Hellenic renascence was ongoing at the time Heron
lived, fostered by Roman rule.
Christopher Ingham
[/quote:9d60fccbd9]
I'll grant that Heron wasn't actually suppressed - but his work is more a
compilation of knowledge gleaned from pre-Roman sources found in the
(Graeco-Egyptian) Library of Alexandria, than a reflection of research and
development taking place in his own lifetime. There would have been no
need for a renaiscence either in 1st century Egypt or 14th century Italy
if the scientific culture of the Greeks hadn't been suppressed and stifled
in the first place.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Poetic Justice... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:19 pm |
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[I'm using my 'Domus Aurea' guidebook put out by the 'Soprintendenza
Archeological di Roma' 1999 which I assume contains updated info and
theories based on current info.]
Christopher Ingham wrote;
[quote:29cffa2a98]The functions of any of the rooms of the
Oppian wing are not known.
[/quote:29cffa2a98]
Well they are fairly certain the western wing and what they have
discovered of the eastern wing wasn't residential (no door hinges on
rooms, all main rooms freely open to the southern facade, no latrines,
kitchens or heating systems) so any of those functions are off the list.
<quote> In fact, what we have is a "dynamic" pavilion, inside which the
Emperor and his guests could walk, enjoying the space of the complex,
its works of art, fountains, the panoramas looking over the park and
valley and stopping in the main halls (Octagonal Room is one listed)
given over to moments of repose".
100+ small accessible rooms in a maze-like lay-out have been excavated,
they seem to be part of the art (frescos, decorations, architecture and
perhaps sculptures)?
[quote:29cffa2a98]The octagonal room, however, in its
architectural disposition has the
characteristics of an_oecus_, a chamber
centrally-located in relation to surrounding
rooms with usually a strategic view onto a
landscape or courtyard.
[/quote:29cffa2a98]
In the guidebook they define 'oecus' as a 'living room' which also
fits one of the theories for the Octagonal Room.
[quote:29cffa2a98]The typical well-appointed Roman house
or villa contained several_oeci_, which
most frequently served as dining halls, the
most popular and important venues for
social interactions. It was not essential
that kitchens be in the vicinity of the
dining room -- or even in the same
building.
[/quote:29cffa2a98]
But you would think that if the Octagonal Room's main purpose was for
dining that the kitchens would be nearby, they do have plenty of space.
It is one of the things mentioned in the new discovery as possible proof
for the rotating hall.
And you would think for such an elaborate room a hypoclaust
heating system would have been installed so it could be used year-round?
Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:).
Plus with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's
connecting rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and
all you need are the seats:).
[quote:29cffa2a98]The Oppian wing was not completed at
Nero's death.
[/quote:29cffa2a98]
Probably not but it did survive intact for 35 more years until the 104AD
Fire.
And we know Otho gave 50m Sesterces to complete the Palace and
Vitellius possibly keep it on-going to keep his complaining wife
happy:).
Granted both short-term reigns and what part of the Palace did they
actually keep constructing?
Could the Flavians have added some unrecorded finishing touches?
The rooms I visited are only those listed in the guidebook but they
were all completed from what I understand.
Besides the expensive gold leaf, gems, marbles, ivory, etc., the
marble facing, floor materials and anything that could be reused was
also stripped-away after the Fire so the Baths of Trajan could be built.
[I want to add this to my previous post] The Octagonal Room was
elaborately finished, the vault or dome was still rough possibly because
it was covered by a wood and decorative fabric false ceiling (2 rings
around the oculus and a lower ring on the vault might have held a wooden
frame).
Also they seem to have *wanted* the Octagonal Room to be Nero's
rotating dining room since it was discovered, so it will always be
assocated with a dining room and perhaps it was.
[quote:29cffa2a98]Suetonius is the only source, and he is
clear that the dining room itself rotated.
Later commentators, evidently on the
basis of remains of clearly stationary
circular rooms, assumed that the rotating
apparatus must have been in the ceiling.
[/quote:29cffa2a98]
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me, google sites were giving me
a rotating floor, room or ceiling translations:).
Now Suetonius never saw this room but had recent records and/or
possible 1st hand accounts I assume?
If not, couldn't this room have been exaggerated over the decades?
I'm wondering because he also states that the baths in the Domus Aurea
were supplied by 'sea water' and 'sulphurous water' (if this is a good
translation)?
Sea water could only be brought in by hand from the sea and
sulphurous water also by hand unless they built an aqueduct just for
that purpose?
Possible but sounds like an urban legend?
[quote:29cffa2a98]The finds seem conclusive, though: the
large pillar was the pivot, and the
spherical devices located at right angles
to one another at the edges of the circle
were the ball bearings.
[/quote:29cffa2a98]
This 4m pillar I've noticed by looking at photos has at least seperate 2
floors of concrete supporting arches surrounding it and then it extends
into the excavation trench which I assume is the level of the dining
room?
If this pillar was a pivot it was built to support a massive
amount of weight.
So they're talking of a possible 50ft diameter wooden floor with
furnishings, people, etc rotating on a pivot area.
"Spherical devices" are the several stone balls that have been
found.
The friction at the pivot and at the stone spheres caused by the weight
of this floor would need quite alot of force to keep this in motion?
If the water from the aqueduct powered it, I would guess that it
required all or most of the water to be channeled to this device which
of course is still clean and can be used again?
Plus friction=noise & vibration and they seem to imply it rotated
24/7, this would cause alot of wear and tear on the parts.
But if the wooden floor was floated in a circular tank built into
the actual floor, the pivot point would just keep it centered and the
stone balls would only come into play if the floor tipped due to people
off-centering it.
With alot less friction it would be easy to keep it in motion with
the force of water.
Anyway I just wish they would elaborate more on the mechanics of
the find, a wide pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague.
I'd like to know where the stone balls were found, if in the
dining room that's pretty conclusive but if 2 or more floors below it's
not.
I mention that because I saw a large marble ball (large beach ball
size) on a stone track IIRC beneath the arena in Capua it was in a wide
trench that ran the axis of the amphitheater. This trench seems to be
for drainage and I assume the ball was possibly used to block (or
possibly allow) the flow of water somewhere?
Also one the size of a small bowling ball that I assume an
archaeologist put on a wall during an excavation of the Forum of Nerva.
I don't know what those were but could stone spheres in buildings have
an everyday practial purpose also?
Regards, Walter |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:41 am |
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On Oct 5, 8:25 am, Whiskers <catwhee... at (no spam) operamail.com> wrote:
[quote:a579f83f72]On 2009-10-05, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
On Oct 4, 6:19 pm, paradisel... at (no spam) webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
[...]
Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:). Plus
with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's connecting
rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and all you need
are the seats:).
You can be sure that they were nearby.
[...]
Unless the mad Emperor thought it would be amusing to oblige his 'guests'
to eat and drink a lot without the neccessary facilities to hand  )
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
[/quote:a579f83f72]
Did this palacxe have the traditional vomitorium? |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:25 am |
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On 2009-10-05, Christopher Ingham <christopheringham at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[quote:3c8095e2f1]On Oct 4, 6:19 pm, paradisel... at (no spam) webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
[/quote:3c8095e2f1]
[...]
[quote:3c8095e2f1]Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:). Plus
with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's connecting
rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and all you need
are the seats:).
You can be sure that they were nearby.
[/quote:3c8095e2f1]
[...]
Unless the mad Emperor thought it would be amusing to oblige his 'guests'
to eat and drink a lot without the neccessary facilities to hand )
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:27 am |
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On 2009-10-04, Poetic Justice <paradiselost at (no spam) webtv.net> wrote:
[quote:4f32262f50][I'm using my 'Domus Aurea' guidebook put out by the 'Soprintendenza
Archeological di Roma' 1999 which I assume contains updated info and
theories based on current info.]
Christopher Ingham wrote;
[/quote:4f32262f50]
[...]
[quote:4f32262f50]The finds seem conclusive, though: the
large pillar was the pivot, and the
spherical devices located at right angles
to one another at the edges of the circle
were the ball bearings.
This 4m pillar I've noticed by looking at photos has at least seperate 2
floors of concrete supporting arches surrounding it and then it extends
into the excavation trench which I assume is the level of the dining
room?
  If this pillar was a pivot it was built to support a massive
amount of weight.
  So they're talking of a possible 50ft diameter wooden floor with
furnishings, people, etc rotating on a pivot area.
  "Spherical devices" are the several stone balls that have been
found.
The friction at the pivot and at the stone spheres caused by the weight
of this floor would need quite alot of force to keep this in motion?
[/quote:4f32262f50]
Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly, particularly if they are
polished and greased. Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't exactly
fast, either, so noise and vibration may not have been significant. Cloth
or leather padding on the 'rails' would make things quieter, too.
At a radius of 25 feet, the rim would move (25×2×pi)÷24 = 6.5 feet per
hour or (25×2×pi)÷24÷60×12 = 1.3 inches per minute.
[quote:4f32262f50]If the water from the aqueduct powered it, I would guess that it
required all or most of the water to be channeled to this device which
of course is still clean and can be used again?
[/quote:4f32262f50]
One would think so. The volume of water required may not have been all
that great, particularly if the movement was in fact intermittant (like a
mechanical clock). Muscle-power may have been involved too.
[quote:4f32262f50]Â Â Plus friction=noise & vibration and they seem to imply it rotated
24/7, this would cause alot of wear and tear on the parts.
[/quote:4f32262f50]
I wonder how often it actually moved?
[quote:4f32262f50]Â Â But if the wooden floor was floated in a circular tank built into
the actual floor, the pivot point would just keep it centered and the
stone balls would only come into play if the floor tipped due to people
off-centering it.
  With alot less friction it would be easy to keep it in motion with
the force of water.
[/quote:4f32262f50]
That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.
[quote:4f32262f50]Â Â Anyway I just wish they would elaborate more on the mechanics of
the find, a wide pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague.
[/quote:4f32262f50]
They don't mention any likely mechanical or hydraulic mechanisms. It's
probable that timber, lead, and other re-usable parts would have been
removed long ago.
[quote:4f32262f50]Â Â I'd like to know where the stone balls were found, if in the
dining room that's pretty conclusive but if 2 or more floors below it's
not.
  I mention that because I saw a large marble ball (large beach ball
size) on a stone track IIRC beneath the arena in Capua it was in a wide
trench that ran the axis of the amphitheater. This trench seems to be
for drainage and I assume the ball was possibly used to block (or
possibly allow) the flow of water somewhere?
[/quote:4f32262f50]
Pictures? I think there are records of the Roman Colosseum having been
flooded for 'sea battles'; they also had all sorts of theatrical machines
for 'special effects'.
[quote:4f32262f50]Â Â Also one the size of a small bowling ball that I assume an
archaeologist put on a wall during an excavation of the Forum of Nerva.
I don't know what those were but could stone spheres in buildings have
an everyday practial purpose also?
Regards, Walter
[/quote:4f32262f50]
Stone spheres seem to have been used for decoration, apart from anything
else. I gather from various web sites that the arena in Capua has largely
been stripped of its fancy stonework but that fragments are scattered
about.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:10 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 6, 6:15 pm, paradisel... at (no spam) webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
[quote:c4805fcb9f]
My big question about this site is the purpose for a maze of *alot*
of small elaborate rooms?
I think the rooms were part of the art
that Nero & Co would see as they leasurely strolled by?
The quirky maze-like lay-out would make the stroll interesting with so
many different twists & turns each walk would follow a different route.
I find it hard to accept Amanda Claridge's theory that they are small
seperate dining rooms?
A banquet where the guests are all isolated into small groups in
small rooms?
[/quote:c4805fcb9f]
Doubtless the many works of art displayed in the Oppian wing and
elsewhere in the other buildings and of the Domus Aurea gave the place
a museum-like quality. Pliny (_HN_34.84) says, "Of all the works [of
over 200 artists and sculptors] I have enumerated the most famous are
to be found in Rome today, dedicated by the emperor Vespasian in the
Temple of Peace and his other buildings. They were brought to Rome by
Nero as plunder and were displayed throughout the 'sitting
rooms' [_sellaria_] of the Golden House." (Katherine Welch, in_The
Roman Amphitheatre_, 2007, 158, suspects that most of this "plunder"
refers to works taken from the many confiscated estates of elite
families after the Pisonian conspiracy in 65 CE, rather than directly
from Greece.) Still, while the purposes of the rooms in the Oppian
wing are not determined, it is the opinion of a preponderance of
commentators that many of them were for dining. (The significance of
the banqueting rituals of Nero has been the subject of much scholarly
discussion discussion recently; see, e.g., the pertinent sections in
E. Champlin, _Nero_, 2003.) And, as was customary in most elite houses
and villas, sculptures and paintings in the dining and other rooms of
the palace would have been displayed as parts of thematically-arranged
programs intended to stimulate learned discussions among the guests.
The design of the eastern sector of the building itself was radically
innovative. It directly influenced much subsequent Roman architectural
development, as evidenced in such constructions as Domitian's Domus
Augustana on the Palatine and Hadrian's Villa at Tibur. The following
quotation typifies assessments of its significance:
"Few discoveries have made more impact on the history of Roman
architecture than that of the octagonal hall of Nero's Golden House
[ ... which has] assumed the privileged position as the embodiment of
a fundamental breakthrough in design and aesthetics. For many it
represents an abandonment of rectilinear planning and post-and -lintel
construction in favour of a much less inhibited handling of interior
space[....] So unexpected is the design that it has been declared a
'revolution' in architecture"
-- D. Hemsoll, "Reconstructing the Octagonal Dining Room of Nero's
Golden House,"
_Architectural History_32 (1989): 1
[quote:c4805fcb9f]There are some Othonian remnants in the
Oppian wing,
Thanks for that info, I guess he thought he's be around awhile to enjoy
it:).
He is my favorite of the 3 short-termers.
[/quote:c4805fcb9f]
Vitellius, another of the "3 short-termers," evidently resided on the
Palatine, in the part of Nero's palace which shortly later was
transformed into the Domus Tiberiana (Suet._Vit. 15.3).
[quote:c4805fcb9f]From the sparse info that's been provided,
the rotating platform was quite light.
If so, it wouldn't need a 4m wide pillar with a number of supporting
arches to hold it up as they seem to be claiming:-).
I'm more mechanically inclined that intellectually inclined (I'm
sure you've noticed:).
With the materials the Romans had and the strength needed to support
a horizonal rotating 50ft disc along with people and furnishing (beds,
tables, etc).
I'd have to go with very heavy.
Bare minimum of 4 25ft strong wooden beams connected to a very strong
hub, at the other end of the beams and underneath somekind of circular
track O (curved wood with an iron surface?) for the stone spheres to
contact with (unless the spheres were located at the hub) and whatever
was used for the disc's flooring which is *alot* of area to cover.
Plus add-on whatever was needed to rotate the disc, possible
cross-bracing between the beams, nails/fastenings, etc.
(I'm going with wooden beams because that seems to be the only sturdy
material they could use to span a horizonal distance of 25ft
unsupported).
You're probably aware that Gaius
Scribonius Curio in the first century BCE
built two temporary wooden theaters in
Rome which turned on pivots to form an
amphitheater (Pliny,_NH_36.15.117-20)?
Yes I am and it was pretty cool but 'apples and oranges' .
They could have used a 100(s) slaves pulling on ropes, teams of oxen or
a few of those man-powered cranes with multiple pulleys minus the boom
to open & close that structure.
But what we have with this 50ft rotating dining disc is alot of
weight (esp the beams, hub and floor) with a good amount of
friction/resistance which they believe was powered by water.
Could the force of water from an aqueduct power this horizonal
disc?
Water power is strong and steady but it does have a physical
limit, you could push a 'Smart Car' down a level smooth road with the
water from a firehose but not a truck.
[/quote:c4805fcb9f]
The means of engineering these rotating constructions has not yet been
adduced, and I'm not qualified to hazard a guess. F. E. Winter
(_Studies in Hellenistic Architecture_,,191) speculates that the
theaters of Curio may have been "a gigantic version of the intricate
gearing discovered in the astronomical calculator recovered from the
Antiythera wreck."
http://books.google.com/books?id=03UNLhtEP1oC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=scribonius+curio+theater+engineering&source=bl&ots=gs9Sj7PrnO&sig=abSkbSU9iHqrlIqPDmKt9z6x-4k&hl=en&ei=RszMSr-VNYySMdjmjTo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false
[quote:c4805fcb9f]I'd expect to see a field report
in_BullCom_soon.
Thanks I'm interested, what is it (website, journal, magazine)?
[/quote:c4805fcb9f]
The_Bullettino della Commissione Archeologica del Comune di Roma_is
perhaps the foremost journal on archaeology in Rome. Its annual
volumes are released in several parts throughout the year, requiring
almost daily consultation in order to keep abreast of new discoveries.
Conventionalized abbreviations for journals in classical studies, btw,
are in "Editorial Policy, Instructions for Contributors, and
Abbreviations,"_American Journal of Archaeology_111 (2007):14-34, also
online:
: http://www.ajaonline.org/index.php?ptype=page&pid=8
_L'Année philologique_is followed for journals not listed in_AJA_:
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ARTH/lannee.html
Christopher Ingham |
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| Whiskers... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:09 pm |
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Guest
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On 2009-10-07, Christopher Ingham <christopheringham at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
[quote:f0033c4863]Â Â Water power is strong and steady but it does have a physical
limit, you could push a 'Smart Car' down a level smooth road with the
water from a firehose but not a truck.
The means of engineering these rotating constructions has not yet been
adduced, and I'm not qualified to hazard a guess. F. E. Winter
(_Studies in Hellenistic Architecture_,,191) speculates that the
theaters of Curio may have been "a gigantic version of the intricate
gearing discovered in the astronomical calculator recovered from the
Antiythera wreck."
http://books.google.com/books?id=03UNLhtEP1oC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=scribonius+curio+theater+engineering&source=bl&ots=gs9Sj7PrnO&sig=abSkbSU9iHqrlIqPDmKt9z6x-4k&hl=en&ei=RszMSr-VNYySMdjmjTo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false
[/quote:f0033c4863]
[...]
Most of the easily accessible information about Roman machines, is about
weapons.
By Nero's time the Romans certainly knew how to extract power from water,
using a variety of 'water-mill' designs for grinding grain, cutting stone,
and driving trip-hammers for metal-work and fulling cloth. Ctesibius and
Vitruvius recorded fairly reliable mechanical water-clocks centuries
earlier. A water-clock on the scale of a large water-mill isn't
inconceivable.
Muscle power was relatively cheap, so it's not impossible that the rotating
room was simply pushed or pulled by main force, at a rate regulated by
reference to water-clocks and sundials. But it would be nice to find a
big water-wheel, or battery of water-wheels, and a mechanical transmission
geared to the rotating room.
As I pointed out earlier, the room would only need to move by an inch or
so a minute at the outer edge (assuming a diameter of 50 feet). That's
not an impossible target - consider the feats of single strong-men and
teams at pulling several tons of lorry a good few yards in a few minutes.
Winches and pulleys were known in Nero's time, and would provide a useful
mechanical advantage whether the motive power were muscle or water.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:44 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 11, 2:45 pm, paradisel... at (no spam) webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
[quote:348ce73e9c]"The main banquet hall was circular and
constantly revolved day and night, like the
heavens".
"The main dining- room was circular, and
its roof revolved day and night, in time
with the sky".
{{The friction at the pivot and at the stone
spheres caused by the weight of this floor
would need quite alot of force to keep this
in motion?}}
Whiskers wrote;
Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly,
particularly if they are polished and
greased.
Yes, today they work unbelievable well but (and I am just assuming)
we are possibly talking stone ball-bearings slowly rolling within
something to hold it in position [O].
With the rolling top sections supporting a rotating floor which would
need a strong track like iron or stone to prevent wear.
I'm assuming because they ID'ed these as "stone spheres" vs "stone
balls" that they are quite large and supported alot of weight?
The stone could have been polished to reduce friction but I think
grease/lubricant would only help reduce friction in what it was seated
within and then only the sides of the sphere as it rotated.
Because the weight on the top and bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?
Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't
exactly fast, either, so noise and vibration
may not have been significant.
If the rotation was "in time with the sky" vs "like the heavens" I
don't think dining and chatting guests would notice a 1.3in/min-6.5ft/hr
movement of the floor unless the circular room was immense.
[/quote:348ce73e9c]
I'm just speculating here -- and we don't know what remains to be
discovered -- but perhaps the mechanism was similar to a water mill
with overshot wheel, with the floor substituting for what in a water
mill would be the revolving stone:
http://books.google.com/books?http://books.google.com/books?id=Q4aVmw1llwYC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=Where+the+water+supply+was+too+small+for+anything&source=bl&ots=OiMN0AnXEE&sig=QgWSsJ0j-4h1bBwyAscJmHvFY-U&hl=en&ei=KDfSSrGhEIuGMpvRtZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Where%20the%20water%20supply%20was%20too%20small%20for%20anything&f=false
[quote:348ce73e9c] And why follow the sky inside a building even if it had windows
with a 360* view and an oculus?
Would you really notice anything while occupied with dining and
chit-chat?
Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something cool on the circular
ceiling like a 360* sky with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall painting,
sculptures, etc.
[/quote:348ce73e9c]
It was probably one of the innumerable calculated effects of the Domus
Aurea intended to emphasize the the place as the abode of the Sun God;
specifically in this instance a display of a Neronian variety of Sol-
Helios ideology analogous perhaps to what Nero on one occasion
exhibited in the Theater of Pompey:
"On the notorious Golden Day in 66, a sensation was created in the
Theatre of Pompey when, according to Dio, 'the awnings stretched
overhead to keep off the sun were purple and in the centre of them was
an embroidered figure of Nero driving a chariot, with golden stars
gleaming all around him' -- an image preserved on a fragmentary relief
showing Nero's head radiate against a background of stars. When the
audience squinted up at the sun, they saw instead Nero himself, and
the stars around him that his chariot was a heavenly one" (E.
Champlin, "God and Man in the Golden House," in M. Cima and E. La
Rocca, eds.,_Horti romani_, 1998, 337).
[quote:348ce73e9c]snip
I think there are records of the Roman
Colosseum having been flooded for 'sea
battles';
Yes, but there is a pro & con camp.
The official Colosseum tour I took said "No" but they are just human
audioguides who don't like questions or explaining things in their 45min
boring tour.
Also not mentioned in the official guidebook.
When Titus opened the Colosseum for the Games the cellar (I forget
the correct term) wasn't dug-out yet.
The Colosseum was supplied water from a branch of an aqueduct so
it has the water.
And if they blocked-off the 2 main gates plus a smaller doorway or
2 they could likely flood it?
I've read I think on the 'Lacus Curtius' website that an
archaeologist(?) claims the water could reach the depth of almost 1
meter which would be plenty for small flat-bottomed ships.
Good drainage in and around the structure so I doubt draining a
meter of water would be a problem at the end of the event.
[/quote:348ce73e9c]
Titus supposedly staged a mock naval battle as part of the 100-day
inauguration festivities of the Colosseum (Mart._Spect._34), erected
on the site of the lake (_stagnum_) of Nero's Golden House, which was
supplied by the Neronian branch of the Aqua Claudia. Whether any naval
shows actually were ever staged there is questionable, since there is
no clear evidence of the possibility of such use in the wall
structures or interior hydraulic system; more likely Titus' show was
staged in the Naumachia Augusti in the Transtiberim region of the city
(K. Welch,_The Roman Amphitheatre_, 2007, 318n.66; L. Lombardi, "The
Water System of the Colosseum," in A. Gabucci, ed.,_The Colosseum_,
2001, 236). Domitian's construction of the hypogeum of the
amphitheater a short time later, as you note, would have brought a
permanent end to any further (purported) flooding of the arena.
[quote:348ce73e9c]snip
Stone spheres seem to have been used
for decoration, apart from anything else.
The large one in Capua amphitheater's cellar and in a long narrow pit
on a track IIRC definitely had a practical purpose (sorry no picture:).
[/quote:348ce73e9c]
The stone spheres discovered on the Palatine probably served primarily
to stabilize the floor of the banquet hall, if my conjecture that
there was a modified water mill mechanism is correct
Christopher Ingham |
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| Poetic Justice... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:45 pm |
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[quote:0475130ba1]"The main banquet hall was circular and
constantly revolved day and night, like the
heavens".
"The main dining- room was circular, and
its roof revolved day and night, in time
with the sky".
[/quote:0475130ba1]
[quote:0475130ba1]{{The friction at the pivot and at the stone
spheres caused by the weight of this floor
would need quite alot of force to keep this
in motion?}}
[/quote:0475130ba1]
Whiskers wrote;
[quote:0475130ba1]Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly,
particularly if they are polished and
greased.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
Yes, today they work unbelievable well but (and I am just assuming)
we are possibly talking stone ball-bearings slowly rolling within
something to hold it in position [O].
With the rolling top sections supporting a rotating floor which would
need a strong track like iron or stone to prevent wear.
I'm assuming because they ID'ed these as "stone spheres" vs "stone
balls" that they are quite large and supported alot of weight?
The stone could have been polished to reduce friction but I think
grease/lubricant would only help reduce friction in what it was seated
within and then only the sides of the sphere as it rotated.
Because the weight on the top and bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?
[quote:0475130ba1]Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't
exactly fast, either, so noise and vibration
may not have been significant.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
I put the 2 Suetonius translations in this thread at the top ('roof' is
wrong).
If the rotation was "in time with the sky" vs "like the heavens" I
don't think dining and chatting guests would notice a 1.3in/min-6.5ft/hr
movement of the floor unless the circular room was immense.
And why follow the sky inside a building even if it had windows
with a 360* view and an oculus?
Would you really notice anything while occupied with dining and
chit-chat?
I just think to make this rotating dining room a cool novelty ya
gotta go faster:).
Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something cool on the circular
ceiling like a 360* sky with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall painting,
sculptures, etc.
Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1 revolution per day but at
say 0.25 RPM it would likely be noticeable?
[quote:0475130ba1]Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
would make things quieter, too.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
With massive weight and they're saying it ran 24/7 they would wear-out
in no time.
[quote:0475130ba1]{{If the water from the aqueduct powered
it, I would guess that it required all or
most of the water to be channeled to this
device which of course is still clean and
can be used again?}}
[/quote:0475130ba1]
[quote:0475130ba1]One would think so. The volume of water
required may not have been all that great,
particularly if the movement was in fact
intermittant (like a mechanical clock).
[/quote:0475130ba1]
I thought of something like that for a 24hr rotation, like an extremely
slow water-wheel using the slowly accumulating water for its torque.
But I think it would either have too be very huge or smaller, faster
and geared-down.
I don't think it would have been technically possible for them to
gear-down something to 1 revolution per day.
Even if faster like .25 RPM could the wooden gears the Romans used be
strong enough for the weight?
[quote:0475130ba1]Muscle-power may have been involved
too.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
Slave-power sounds like a great idea to be used when they were
dining but the rotating claim 24/7 seems to point to an aqueduct water
power source.
[quote:0475130ba1]{{Anyway I just wish they would elaborate
more on the mechanics of the find, a wide
pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague.}}
[/quote:0475130ba1]
[quote:0475130ba1]They don't mention any likely mechanical
or hydraulic mechanisms. It's probable
that timber, lead, and other re-usable
parts would have been removed long ago.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
I should have said "evidence of the mechanics" like; Water channels,
wear & tear marks, holes in the top of the pillar where it pivoted, etc.
[quote:0475130ba1]I think there are records of the Roman
Colosseum having been flooded for 'sea
battles';
[/quote:0475130ba1]
Yes, but there is a pro & con camp.
The official Colosseum tour I took said "No" but they are just human
audioguides who don't like questions or explaining things in their 45min
boring tour.
Also not mentioned in the official guidebook.
When Titus opened the Colosseum for the Games the cellar (I forget
the correct term) wasn't dug-out yet.
The Colosseum was supplied water from a branch of an aqueduct so
it has the water.
And if they blocked-off the 2 main gates plus a smaller doorway or
2 they could likely flood it?
I've read I think on the 'Lacus Curtius' website that an
archaeologist(?) claims the water could reach the depth of almost 1
meter which would be plenty for small flat-bottomed ships.
Good drainage in and around the structure so I doubt draining a
meter of water would be a problem at the end of the event.
[quote:0475130ba1]..they also had all sorts of theatrical
machines for 'special effects'.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
That seemed to be one of the big crowd pleasers:).
The elevators to the (32?) trapdoors in the arena's floor were powered
by counterweights which were lifted by the many man-powered winches in
the cellar. The marble blocks with a center hole to support the bottom
of the wooden turning posts are all around the cellar's floor.
Plus I believe they had a couple? of large long ramps which were
lowered into the cellar also.
And there is also evidence for a major hydraulic lifting mechanism at
both ends of the cellar.
[quote:0475130ba1]Stone spheres seem to have been used
for decoration, apart from anything else.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
The large one in Capua amphitheater's cellar and in a long narrow pit
on a track IIRC definitely had a practical purpose (sorry no picture:).
[quote:0475130ba1]I gather from various web sites that the
arena in Capua has largely been stripped
of its fancy stonework but that fragments
are scattered about.
[/quote:0475130ba1]
Yes, the main attractions of this site are the arena which you can
walk around (reconstructed floor with the trapdoor openings) and the
arena's cellar.
It has a modern museum on site but it is mostly geared for school
children.
With a combo-ticket the city also includes a very nice Mithraeum
and a very interesting museum.
The tourist draw to the amphitheater is of course Sparticus but
this structure was built during Augustus' reign.
And the Gladiator School where the revolt started is a few/many Km
outside the city. But of course there is a History Channel-like
documentary that shows the Gladiator School in the ruins right in front
of the amphitheater:-).
Regards, Walter |
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