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| Peter T. Daniels... |
 Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:22 am |
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On Oct 30, 4:42 am, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 10:51 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
After the Revolution, some patriots tried to establish an "American"
language. Noah Webster was a prominent one, and his "spellers" were
very successful in the 1780s-1790s. In his dictionaries of 1806 and
1828 he tried to establish a regular orthography that was, in minor
ways, distinct from that of the Old World, mostly by picking and
choosing among proposals that had been around since Dr Johnson's
Dictionary (1755) had become the authority for English spelling. Many
of Webster's changes did indeed prevail in the US.
This is a good example... thanks for telling it. Of course, there have
always been lunatics who tried to fulfill their sick ideas/dreams. In
Noah's case normal people reacted normally and thus prevented the
barbarous act of a language thievery.
[/quote]
What the hell is "language thievery"?
What barbarians have ever engaged in "language thievery"? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:29 am |
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On Oct 30, 5:22 am, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 3:55 pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Du¹an Vukotiæ wrote:
Following your unusual logic, the Bosnian Muslims might have taken the
English language as their own and they could have called it the
Bosniac language. Why then the American English isn't called just
American?
What makes you think it won't be at some time in the future? At some
point various groups of people in Eastern Europe started calling their
languages Polish and Czech and Russian and Bulgarian instead of Polish
Slavic and Czech Slavic and Russian Slavic and Bulgarian Slavic, right?
And there aren't any modern languages that have been referred to as
Catalonian Latin or Romanian Latin or Italian Latin in at least a few
centuries, right?
And what do you suggest? Are you advocating for all of the hundreds of
European dialects to become recognized languages? Even today, one of
the main problem for a serious "unity" of EU is a "language based"
difficulty. Do you know how much money they are spending just to
translate their documents to all EU "official" languages? Would it not
be much easier and much cheaper if they would use a single language
(English for instance)?
[/quote]
What is a "recognized language"?
Are you advocating abandoning all languages but English for
international affairs?
So the UN should stop conducting business in French, Russian, Chinese,
Spanish, and Arabic? |
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| Helmut Wollmersdorfer... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:13 am |
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Dušan Vukotić wrote:
[quote]Can you be more specific; what did you mean by saying that "Slavic
languages did not setup a standard"?
[/quote]
I meant something like 'Pan-Slavic', 'Inter-Slavic' or whatever a name
would be. |
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| Dik T. Winter... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:22 am |
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In article <9075e055-4771-4c09-9b46-e2e73ae2c359 at (no spam) n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
[quote]On Oct 29, 10:05=A0am, Du=B9an Vukoti=E6 <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
....
Which one? All Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims are equally
acquainted with the Turkish loanwords. However, you cannot change the
name of the language by using more or less loanwords; loanwords are
loanwords and nothing more than that.
You can change the name of the language whenever you fucking want.
Gaining independence often provides the opportunity to do so.
[/quote]
Yes, ask any Norwegian whether they are still speaking Danish. (Of course
there have been separate developments since the independence.)
--
dik t. winter, cwi, science park 123, 1098 xg amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/ |
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| Dik T. Winter... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:30 am |
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In article <a688c266-6df4-4005-bacd-0009d39f5447 at (no spam) l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> =?UTF-8?B?RHXFoWFuIFZ1a290acSH?= <dusan.vukotic at (no spam) gmail.com> writes:
....
[quote]And so what? We are talking about the standard languages. Is your
"Viennese" recognized as a language of schools, press, medias,
government/parliament?
[/quote]
In the Netherlands there are two officially recognized languages plus (I
think) three officially recognized minority languages...
--
dik t. winter, cwi, science park 123, 1098 xg amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/ |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:51 am |
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On Oct 30, 4:06 am, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 6:55Â pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
 > I noticed the turkish loanwords as sounding
unfamiliar to a Serb.
Which one? All Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims are equally
I remember amud¾a meaning "(paternal?) uncle", from turkish
this may not have come out too well: amudz^a
Serb. amidža (uncle, father's brotherhttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amid%C5%BEa,
also Serb. stric, strikan 'uncle'); there is no one in Serbia who
doesn't know what/who amidža is.
[/quote]
OK. it's amidža (it has been a very long time since I saw the film),
and
it is indeed "paternal uncle" as in turkish. but the same link says
that
it is non standard in Serbian and Croatian and is more typically a
regionalism for Bosnia (where it now apears to have become standard).
all languages have regionalisms and those that know the language
well usually get to know them as well. I do agree that it is
unfortunate
that now differences are being emphasized, but aside from expressing
a personal opinion (that usually depends on political and social
outlook
as well) there is nothing we can do about it. linguistics does not
have
much say in it, other than going along with current usage. it's more
of socio-linguistic problem or a matter of sociology or politics.
[quote]
amca (pronounced am*dj*a) "paternal uncle", from arabic
3amm + the dimunitive ending -ca . incidentally without that
ending it would have sounded in turkish like am , refering to the
external female genitalia!
May it somehow be related to Latin amicus? :-)
acquainted with the Turkish loanwords. However, you cannot change the
name of the language by using more or less loanwords; loanwords are
loanwords and nothing more than that.
well, the difference between "dialect" and "language" is frequently
political or social. there is the example of Hindi and Urdu which
differ in loanwords and script, but for everyday conversation are
mutually intelligible. the common name is Hindustani, or as some
Hindus prefer Hindusthani (-stha:n is the inidc cognate of iranian
 -sta:n), which refers to the everyday speach free from the
deliberately
persifying policy of Pakistan and the deliberatley sanskritizing
policy of India.
again, I personally prefer that people find what is in common,
rather than what differentiates them.
Finally, Abdulah ©kaljiæ recorded all the Turkish loanwords in Serbo-
Croatian (not in the Bosniak or Montenegrin). Abdulah Skaljic (1985).
Turcizmi u srpskohrvatskom-hrvatskosrpskom jeziku, Sarajevo/The
Turkish Loanwords in Serbo-Croatian.
yes, I saw that work referenced elsewhere. but it is not unreasonable
that there more of them in the dialect of Muslims, particularly
Bosnian
ones.
The problem is that there never was any "dialect of Muslim" in Bosnia.
Before the last Bosnian war (1992-95) the Bosnian population was
hardly mixed and they all spoke the same Serbo-Croatian (Ijekavian)
language (there were no dialects at all, neither Muslim nor Serbian
nor Croatian).
In addition (I think I've told it before), until the 1968 (when the
schizophrenic Communist regime introduced the new "ethnical" name
Muslims) more than 90% of the Muslim population in Bosnia declared
themselves as Serbs, while a few of them (about 10%) considered
themselves to be either Yugoslavs or Croats. The most famous Muslim
writers like Meša Selimović, Skender Kulenović, Omer–beg Sulejmanpašić-
Despotović, Avdo Karabegović Hasanbegov, Osman Äikić, Smajo Ćemalović,
Nuridin Ibnul-Hadžer, Aliverić Tuzlak, Omer Skopljaković and many
others declared themselves as "the Serbs of Islamic faith".
One of the greatest (above-mentioned) European film-makers of the
modern era, Emir Kusturica, is a Serb too.
[/quote]
yes, and he apparently considers hinslef a serb, and apparently has
converted and changed his first name, acc. to Wikipedia.
[quote]
DV[/quote] |
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| Trond Engen... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:30 am |
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Dik T. Winter:
[quote]In article
9075e055-4771-4c09-9b46-e2e73ae2c359 at (no spam) n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
On Oct 29, 10:05=A0am, Du=B9an Vukoti=E6 <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
Which one? All Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims are equally
acquainted with the Turkish loanwords. However, you cannot change
the name of the language by using more or less loanwords; loanwords
are loanwords and nothing more than that.
You can change the name of the language whenever you fucking want.
Gaining independence often provides the opportunity to do so.
Yes, ask any Norwegian whether they are still speaking Danish.
[/quote]
There's a significant minority who'd answer that they don't but many
others do.
[quote](Of course there have been separate developments since the
independence.)
[/quote]
There has, but independence was no watershed. Separate developments
started when Dano-Norwegian lost its contact with spoken Danish, but
that happened gradually and took most of the 19th century. I think the
real watershed was the independence from Sweden in 1905. Until then the
cultural and linguistic community with Denmark was felt as a guarantee
for relative independence, while the Eastern Norwegian dialects that
might have formed a new standard were uncomfortably close to Swedish.
That's why Nynorsk had to lean towards the Western dialects.
And the Dano-Norwegian ideal has held and even strengthened its position
ever since, so that spoken Norwegian still converges to (a transplanted
form of) Danish.
--
Trond Engen |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:53 pm |
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On Oct 30, 3:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]And why not? The Serbs always were (and still are) an open-minded
people/society. For instance, there are members of my family who
prefer to write one or another script: my mother writes using the
Latin letters, father Cyrillic (both 79 years old). In fact, no one
pays any attention to it, because everyone in Serbia (illiterate
excluded) can read and write both of these two alphabets equally.
From which we deduce that your mother is Catholic and your father is
Orthodox.
[/quote]
We have discussed this before, but you forgot it, as usual.
DV |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:23 pm |
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On Oct 30, 3:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]The problem is that there never was any "dialect of Muslim" in Bosnia.
Before the last Bosnian war (1992-95) the Bosnian population was
hardly mixed and they all spoke the same Serbo-Croatian (Ijekavian)
language (there were no dialects at all, neither Muslim nor Serbian
nor Croatian).
Of course there were dialects. They were, however, geographically
based, not politically based.
Isoglosses paid no attention to boundaries.
[/quote]
You know nothing about Bosnia and stop pretending to be a smart ass
about things you don't know.
DV |
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| Du¹an Vukotiæ... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:35 pm |
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On Oct 30, 3:29 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 5:22 am, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 29, 3:55 pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Du¹an Vukotiæ wrote:
Following your unusual logic, the Bosnian Muslims might have taken the
English language as their own and they could have called it the
Bosniac language. Why then the American English isn't called just
American?
What makes you think it won't be at some time in the future? At some
point various groups of people in Eastern Europe started calling their
languages Polish and Czech and Russian and Bulgarian instead of Polish
Slavic and Czech Slavic and Russian Slavic and Bulgarian Slavic, right?
And there aren't any modern languages that have been referred to as
Catalonian Latin or Romanian Latin or Italian Latin in at least a few
centuries, right?
And what do you suggest? Are you advocating for all of the hundreds of
European dialects to become recognized languages? Even today, one of
the main problem for a serious "unity" of EU is a "language based"
difficulty. Do you know how much money they are spending just to
translate their documents to all EU "official" languages? Would it not
be much easier and much cheaper if they would use a single language
(English for instance)?
What is a "recognized language"?
Are you advocating abandoning all languages but English for
international affairs?
So the UN should stop conducting business in French, Russian, Chinese,
Spanish, and Arabic?
[/quote]
What are you advocating? Anarchy? Americans will continue to speak
English, while the Europe is going to "embrace" a few hundreds of "new
standardized languages".
DV |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:37 pm |
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On Oct 30, 7:53 pm, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 3:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
And why not? The Serbs always were (and still are) an open-minded
people/society. For instance, there are members of my family who
prefer to write one or another script: my mother writes using the
Latin letters, father Cyrillic (both 79 years old). In fact, no one
pays any attention to it, because everyone in Serbia (illiterate
excluded) can read and write both of these two alphabets equally.
From which we deduce that your mother is Catholic and your father is
Orthodox.
We have discussed this before, but you forgot it, as usual.
[/quote]
_I_ have discussed no such thing. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:39 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 8:35 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 3:29Â pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 30, 5:22 am, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 29, 3:55Â pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Du¹an Vukotiæ wrote:
Following your unusual logic, the Bosnian Muslims might have taken the
English language as their own and they could have called it the
Bosniac language. Why then the American English isn't called just
American?
What makes you think it won't be at some time in the future? At some
point various groups of people in Eastern Europe started calling their
languages Polish and Czech and Russian and Bulgarian instead of Polish
Slavic and Czech Slavic and Russian Slavic and Bulgarian Slavic, right?
And there aren't any modern languages that have been referred to as
Catalonian Latin or Romanian Latin or Italian Latin in at least a few
centuries, right?
And what do you suggest? Are you advocating for all of the hundreds of
European dialects to become recognized languages? Even today, one of
the main problem for a serious "unity" of EU is a "language based"
difficulty. Do you know how much money they are spending just to
translate their documents to all EU "official" languages? Would it not
be much easier and much cheaper if they would use a single language
(English for instance)?
What is a "recognized language"?
Are you advocating abandoning all languages but English for
international affairs?
So the UN should stop conducting business in French, Russian, Chinese,
Spanish, and Arabic?
What are you advocating? Anarchy? Americans will continue to speak
English, while the Europe is going to "embrace" a few hundreds of "new
standardized languages".
[/quote]
_I_ am not advocating anything. I am asking what _you_ are advocating.
What is a "(new) standardized language"? What is a "recognized
language"? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:40 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 8:23 pm, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 3:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
The problem is that there never was any "dialect of Muslim" in Bosnia..
Before the last Bosnian war (1992-95) the Bosnian population was
hardly mixed and they all spoke the same Serbo-Croatian (Ijekavian)
language (there were no dialects at all, neither Muslim nor Serbian
nor Croatian).
Of course there were dialects. They were, however, geographically
based, not politically based.
Isoglosses paid no attention to boundaries.
You know nothing about Bosnia and stop pretending to be a smart ass
about things you don't know.
[/quote]
It has nothing to do with Bosnia specifically.
But I happen to have been told by Slavicists that there are (of
course) dialects within Serbo-Croatian, and they do not coincide with
political boundaries.
What about Herzegovina? |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:37 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 3:39Â am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 8:35 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 30, 3:29Â pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 30, 5:22 am, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail..com> wrote:
On Oct 29, 3:55Â pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Du¹an Vukotiæ wrote:
Following your unusual logic, the Bosnian Muslims might have taken the
English language as their own and they could have called it the
Bosniac language. Why then the American English isn't called just
American?
What makes you think it won't be at some time in the future? At some
point various groups of people in Eastern Europe started calling their
languages Polish and Czech and Russian and Bulgarian instead of Polish
Slavic and Czech Slavic and Russian Slavic and Bulgarian Slavic, right?
And there aren't any modern languages that have been referred to as
Catalonian Latin or Romanian Latin or Italian Latin in at least a few
centuries, right?
And what do you suggest? Are you advocating for all of the hundreds of
European dialects to become recognized languages? Even today, one of
the main problem for a serious "unity" of EU is a "language based"
difficulty. Do you know how much money they are spending just to
translate their documents to all EU "official" languages? Would it not
be much easier and much cheaper if they would use a single language
(English for instance)?
What is a "recognized language"?
Are you advocating abandoning all languages but English for
international affairs?
So the UN should stop conducting business in French, Russian, Chinese,
Spanish, and Arabic?
What are you advocating? Anarchy? Americans will continue to speak
English, while the Europe is going to "embrace" a few hundreds of "new
standardized languages".
_I_ am not advocating anything. I am asking what _you_ are advocating.
What is a "(new) standardized language"? What is a "recognized
language"?
[/quote]
Officially recognized languages! What is officially recognized
language in Germany - Standard German? What would have happened in
case if Germany had recognized all its dialects to be the official
languages? Are you really so leaden?
DV |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:43 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 1:37 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 3:39Â am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 30, 8:35 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 30, 3:29Â pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 30, 5:22 am, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 29, 3:55Â pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Du¹an Vukotiæ wrote:
Following your unusual logic, the Bosnian Muslims might have taken the
English language as their own and they could have called it the
Bosniac language. Why then the American English isn't called just
American?
What makes you think it won't be at some time in the future? At some
point various groups of people in Eastern Europe started calling their
languages Polish and Czech and Russian and Bulgarian instead of Polish
Slavic and Czech Slavic and Russian Slavic and Bulgarian Slavic, right?
And there aren't any modern languages that have been referred to as
Catalonian Latin or Romanian Latin or Italian Latin in at least a few
centuries, right?
And what do you suggest? Are you advocating for all of the hundreds of
European dialects to become recognized languages? Even today, one of
the main problem for a serious "unity" of EU is a "language based"
difficulty. Do you know how much money they are spending just to
translate their documents to all EU "official" languages? Would it not
be much easier and much cheaper if they would use a single language
(English for instance)?
What is a "recognized language"?
Are you advocating abandoning all languages but English for
international affairs?
So the UN should stop conducting business in French, Russian, Chinese,
Spanish, and Arabic?
What are you advocating? Anarchy? Americans will continue to speak
English, while the Europe is going to "embrace" a few hundreds of "new
standardized languages".
_I_ am not advocating anything. I am asking what _you_ are advocating.
What is a "(new) standardized language"? What is a "recognized
language"?
Officially recognized languages! What is officially recognized
language in Germany - Standard German? What would have happened in
case if Germany had recognized all its dialects to be the official
languages? Are you really so leaden?
[/quote]
Is the United States at any sort of disadvantage because it has NO
official language?
Now you've answered one of the three questions. Try for the other two:
What are you advocating?
What is a "(new) standardized language"? |
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