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| Peter T. Daniels... |
 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:47 am |
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On Nov 1, 5:51 am, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <math... at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
Bart> Such cases are quite rare. Generally one knows how to read a
Bart> word written in Japanese or one doesn't.
Now, tell PTD and me whether the Hiraganas in the sentence "日曜日に公園
へ行きました。" can tell you how to pronounce "日曜日". That's PTD's
claim. Tell him whether the Hiraganas in this sentence can tell you
which of the IDEOGRAPHIC character 日 represents the *morpheme* "nichi"
and which is "hi".
[/quote]
What a stupid question. There are no ideographic characters there. |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:47 am |
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[quote]"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
But those won't tell me which morphemes the two "日" in the word
"日曜日" refer to. Example sentence: 日曜日に公園へ行きました。
[/quote]
Peter> That would be because you don't know Japanese. I don't know
Peter> Japanese either, but I have a small Jpn-Eng dictionary
Peter> (Langenscheidt's Pocket Dictionary, in the series with the
Peter> yellow plastic cover) and I find an entry that looks like
Peter> that sequence of characters, and it is pronounced nichiyoobi
Peter> and means 'Sunday'. I look up other days of the week in the
Peter> Eng-Jpn section and find that the last two characters yoobi
Peter> seem to mean 'day' in that context,
No. Your dictionary sucks. A more accurate translation for 曜日(youbi)
is "day of week", not "day".
Peter> but 'day' by itself is the "sun" character pronounced
Peter> hi.
This "hi" is voicified to become "bi" in the compound 曜日.
Peter> 'Sun' is not written with the "sun" character alone,
It is!
Peter> but 'Moon' is written with the first character in 'Monday'
Peter> alone.
Yes.
So? Now, back to the original question.
Tell me how one can tell which 日 is pronounced "nichi" and "hi" ("bi")
in 日曜日 in the sentence: 日曜日に公園へ行きました。
You claimed before that the Hiragana's around that word in the sentence
can let YOU magically tell which is "nichi" and which is "hi". It is
your task to show me how that works.
[quote]Do you have any example sentence to show how what your claim
works?
[/quote]
Peter> Look at any Japanese textbook. I'm not going to copy a
Peter> discussion of _on_ and _kun_ readings for your benefit. Also
Peter> learn about _okurigana_.
You simply don't know what you're talking about!
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:51 am |
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[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <mathias at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
[/quote]
Bart> Such cases are quite rare. Generally one knows how to read a
Bart> word written in Japanese or one doesn't.
Now, tell PTD and me whether the Hiraganas in the sentence "日曜日に公園
へ行きました。" can tell you how to pronounce "日曜日". That's PTD's
claim. Tell him whether the Hiraganas in this sentence can tell you
which of the IDEOGRAPHIC character 日 represents the *morpheme* "nichi"
and which is "hi".
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:53 am |
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[quote]"Joachim" == Joachim Pense <snob at (no spam) pense-mainz.eu> writes:
[/quote]
Joachim> I found it interesting in US traffic signs (not the
Joachim> distance indicators but curve warnings, speed regulations
Joachim> and the like) that they rely primarily on texts,
Not surprisingly, given that only 1 language is dominant there.
Joachim> while in Europe, icons have been used for many decades,
Joachim> with texts only used as optional supplementary
Joachim> specifications below the iconic sign.
Again, this is expected, given the linguistic diversity and the freedom
of movement of people speaking (reading) differently languages.
--
Lee Sau Dan u ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| Joachim Pense... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:32 am |
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LEE Sau Dan (in sci.lang):
[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <mathias at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
Bart> Such cases are quite rare. Generally one knows how to read a
Bart> word written in Japanese or one doesn't.
Now, tell PTD and me whether the Hiraganas in the sentence "日曜日に公園
へ行きました。" can tell you how to pronounce "日曜日". That's PTD's
claim. Tell him whether the Hiraganas in this sentence can tell you
which of the IDEOGRAPHIC character 日 represents the *morpheme* "nichi"
and which is "hi".
[/quote]
In the case of 日曜日 Nichiyoobi it is not the hiragana but the Kanji that tell
by their order of appearance which 日 is nichi and which is hi.
Joachim |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:23 am |
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On Nov 1, 10:54 am, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
[quote]Then, why don't you read a textbook on Japanese to find out yourself
that the Hiraganas in the example Japanese sentence above do NOT at all
help you figure out the morphemes refered by character "日" in the word
"日曜日"?
[/quote]
Why the fuck should they "help you figure out the morphemes"?
That is how the word 'Monday' is written. Period.
Either you know the word "Monday" or you don't.
When you read a phonetically written language, you do not look at each
letter and decide its sound and put the sounds together and determine
what words sound like that.
When you read a logographically written language, you do not look at
each character and decide its morpheme and put the morphemes together
and determine what words have that meaning.
You know the language, and you know that a certain combination of
symbols represents a certain word or phrase. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:27 am |
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On Nov 1, 1:36pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Sun, 1 Nov 2009 06:46:29 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
You claimed before that the Hiragana's around that word in the sentence
can let YOU magically tell which is "nichi" and which is "hi".. It is
your task to show me how that works.
READ A FUCKING TEXTBOOK, YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLE.
Peter T. Daniels would be more trustworthy if he'd just answer the
question or else admit he doesn't know it.
Unlike you, I know how to look things up in books.
So please do and tell us the results. No hurry, next week is OK too.
[/quote]
How many times do you answer your child's identical question until you
get exasperated?
LSD is not a child. LSD has something to do with computer engineering.
LSD ought therefore be able to understand that Japanese writing is not
ideographic.
But no matter how many times this is explained, LSD persists.
Is this not stupidity?
LSD proudly proclaims that he can get the sense of a Japanese text
even though he knows no Japanese. If LSD wants to read Japanese texts,
why doesn't he learn Japanese? |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:54 am |
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[quote]"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
No. Your dictionary sucks. A more accurate translation for 曜日
(youbi) is "day of week", not "day".
[/quote]
Peter> Now it turns out you really must be very, very stupid indeed.
Peter> "'day in this context'" means "day of the week."
That's because English doesn't have a convenient word for the concept of
"day of the week". So, when you use the word "day", you are ambiguous
with whether you're talking about a day of the week, or just a day.
Peter> but 'day' by itself is the "sun" character pronounced
Peter> hi.
[quote]This "hi" is voicified to become "bi" in the compound 曜日.
[/quote]
Peter> 'Sun' is not written with the "sun" character alone,
[quote]It is!
[/quote]
Peter> NOT IN THE DICTIONARY I HAVE,
That's why I said your dictionary sucks.
Peter> AND I WOULD BELIEVE A DICTIONARY PUBLISHED BY LANGENSCHEIDT
Peter> BEFORE I WOULD BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO DECLARES THAT HE DOES NOT
Peter> KNOW ANY JAPANESE (and doesn't even know what hiragana are
Peter> used for).
Shouting doesn't make your argument more rational. It only shows that
you're running out of valid arguments.
See this for yourself:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/曜日
The concept of "day of the week" is different from the concept of a
plain "day" in East Asian languages.
[quote]Tell me how one can tell which 日 is pronounced "nichi" and "hi"
("bi") in 日曜日 in the sentence: 日曜日に公園へ行きました。
[/quote]
Peter> YOU KNOW THE FUCKING JAPANESE LANGUAGE AND SO YOU KNOW THE
Peter> WORDS REPRESENTED BY THE SEQUENCE OF CHARACTERS.
You still haven't answered the question: how do the Hiraganas in the
example sentence above, as you claimed before, help a literate Japanese
know that the first "日" in "日曜日" represents the morpheme "nichi",
while the second one "hi"?
Don't pretend to be an expert on the Japanese script when you aren't.
Peter> JAPANESE IS NOT CHINESE. THERE IS NOT A 1-TO-1 CORRELATION OF
Peter> CHARACTERS WITH SYLLABLES.
Who has ever tried to claim so?
Peter> READ A FUCKING TEXTBOOK, YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLE. '
You should say this in front of a mirror. Say, not SHOUT.
[quote]You simply don't know what you're talking about!
[/quote]
Peter> Unlike you, I know how to look things up in books.
Then, why don't you read a textbook on Japanese to find out yourself
that the Hiraganas in the example Japanese sentence above do NOT at all
help you figure out the morphemes refered by character "日" in the word
"日曜日"?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:33 pm |
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Guest
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Sun, 1 Nov 2009 06:46:29 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]YOU KNOW THE FUCKING JAPANESE LANGUAGE AND
SO YOU KNOW THE WORDS REPRESENTED BY THE
SEQUENCE OF CHARACTERS.
[/quote]
Peter T. Daniels, showing he knows no manners. Regrettable sight.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:36 pm |
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Sun, 1 Nov 2009 06:46:29 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]You claimed before that the Hiragana's around that word in the sentence
can let YOU magically tell which is "nichi" and which is "hi". It is
your task to show me how that works.
READ A FUCKING TEXTBOOK, YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLE.
[/quote]
Peter T. Daniels would be more trustworthy if he'd just answer the
question or else admit he doesn't know it.
[quote]Unlike you, I know how to look things up in books.
[/quote]
So please do and tell us the results. No hurry, next week is OK too.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:16 pm |
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On Nov 1, 9:06 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
[quote]"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
> Then, why don't you read a textbook on Japanese to find out yourself
> that the Hiraganas in the example Japanese sentence above do NOT
> at all help you figure out the morphemes refered by character "日
> " in the word "日曜日"?
Peter> Why the fuck should they "help you figure out the morphemes"?
Peter> That is how the word 'Monday' is written. Period.
Read your textbook again. 日曜日 is Sunday, not Monday.
You score ZERO points for that elementary homework question!
Peter> Either you know the word "Monday" or you don't.
So, tell me whether the two instances of "日" in "日曜日" is one single
morpheme or two morphemes of diverse origins.
[/quote]
It is neither one morpheme nor two morphemes. It is one logogram (i.e.
"mrphogram") used twice.
[quote] Peter> When you read a phonetically written language, you do not
Peter> look at each letter and decide its sound and put the sounds
Peter> together and determine what words sound like that.
Peter> When you read a logographically written language, you do not
Peter> look at each character and decide its morpheme and put the
Peter> morphemes together and determine what words have that
Peter> meaning.
Peter> You know the language, and you know that a certain
Peter> combination of symbols represents a certain word or phrase.
When I read a logographic script, the mapping is directly from logograph
to idea. No need to (slowly) go through the the morpheme layer.
[/quote]
Let us know the next time you read a passage in Egyptian without
knowing any of the words the hieroglyphs stand for. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:19 pm |
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On Nov 1, 9:20 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <math... at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
Bart> I don't know what Peter based his comment on, but for sure it
Bart> is rare to use 日 alone for "sun" instead of "day" unless one
Bart> is writing about sunrise or sunset.
Is that relevant? We were talking about *morphemes*, not just free
morphemes. The same character "日" is used to write TWO different
morphemes, namely "nichi" and "hi", both meaning "sun", isn't it? Is
that ideographic?
[/quote]
The same shape "bow" is used in English for at least two different
morphemes. Does that mean "bow" is an ideogram? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:20 pm |
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On Nov 1, 11:52 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
[quote]LEE Sau Dan wrote:
"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
> Then, why don't you read a textbook on Japanese to find out yourself
> that the Hiraganas in the example Japanese sentence above do NOT
> at all help you figure out the morphemes refered by character "日
> " in the word "日曜日"?
Peter> Why the fuck should they "help you figure out the morphemes"?
Peter> That is how the word 'Monday' is written. Period.
Read your textbook again. 日曜日 is Sunday, not Monday.
You score ZERO points for that elementary homework question!
Peter> Either you know the word "Monday" or you don't.
So, tell me whether the two instances of "日" in "日曜日" is one single
morpheme or two morphemes of diverse origins.
Peter> When you read a phonetically written language, you do not
Peter> look at each letter and decide its sound and put the sounds
Peter> together and determine what words sound like that.
Peter> When you read a logographically written language, you do not
Peter> look at each character and decide its morpheme and put the
Peter> morphemes together and determine what words have that
Peter> meaning.
Peter> You know the language, and you know that a certain
Peter> combination of symbols represents a certain word or phrase.
When I read a logographic script, the mapping is directly from logograph
to idea. No need to (slowly) go through the the morpheme layer.
And that is contradicting what Peter said how?
[/quote]
Because it's simply wrong.
Being an adult, he is not aware of the processes his mind goes through
in reading. |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:51 pm |
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LEE Sau Dan wrote:
[quote]"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
But those won't tell me which morphemes the two "日" in the word
"日曜日" refer to. Example sentence: 日曜日に公園へ行きました。
Peter> That would be because you don't know Japanese. I don't know
Peter> Japanese either, but I have a small Jpn-Eng dictionary
Peter> (Langenscheidt's Pocket Dictionary, in the series with the
Peter> yellow plastic cover) and I find an entry that looks like
Peter> that sequence of characters, and it is pronounced nichiyoobi
Peter> and means 'Sunday'. I look up other days of the week in the
Peter> Eng-Jpn section and find that the last two characters yoobi
Peter> seem to mean 'day' in that context,
No. Your dictionary sucks. A more accurate translation for 曜日(youbi)
is "day of week", not "day".
[/quote]
Now you're getting a bit silly, just to attack Peter. The word 曜日
(youbi) indeed means "day of the week," but in the word 日曜日 it means
"day." Nobody says "Sun day of the week."
[quote]Peter> but 'day' by itself is the "sun" character pronounced
Peter> hi.
This "hi" is voicified to become "bi" in the compound 曜日.
[/quote]
I bet Peter hadn't even noticed the voicing! Kind of you to point it out!
[quote]Peter> 'Sun' is not written with the "sun" character alone,
It is!
[/quote]
I don't know what Peter based his comment on, but for sure it is rare to
use 日 alone for "sun" instead of "day" unless one is writing about
sunrise or sunset. I'd guess both 太陽 taiyoo and お日様 ohisama would
be more likely choices otherwise.
Bart |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:54 pm |
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LEE Sau Dan wrote:
[quote]"Bart" == Bart Mathias <mathias at (no spam) hawaii.edu> writes:
Bart> Such cases are quite rare. Generally one knows how to read a
Bart> word written in Japanese or one doesn't.
Now, tell PTD and me whether the Hiraganas in the sentence "日曜日に公園
へ行きました。" can tell you how to pronounce "日曜日".
[/quote]
Can't. As I hinted, you have to know the word.
I don't see any ideas in the word, though. I don't see how an idea can
be expressed, in writing or speech, with less than a full sentence.
Bart |
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