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Hydrogen Fuel Plant Run By Solar Power...

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bw...

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:32 pm

Guest

"Don Lancaster" <don at (no spam) tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:7hd6jpF2tth33U1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
[quote:fd8b5b6767]Bob Eld wrote:

A 1 Kilowatt peak noon power array typically produces 5 kilowatt hours per
day.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.asp

Converting to hydrogen at 100% efficiency would involve converting very
high value kilowatt hours into very low value kilowatt hours because of
exergy.

[/quote:fd8b5b6767]
5 kWh/day ONLY in the southwest. The annual average for USA is 4 kWh/day.
Thats NREL data, good for most areas up to 40 degrees North.
But you have to remember the weak link in the chain, which is that
December/January average will be just over 2 kWh/day. Adding trackers will
improve that to 3 kWh/day.

Don Lancaster...

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:10 pm

Guest

bw wrote:
[quote:ec4eb3af05]"Don Lancaster" <don at (no spam) tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:7hd6jpF2tth33U1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
Bob Eld wrote:

A 1 Kilowatt peak noon power array typically produces 5 kilowatt hours per
day.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.asp

Converting to hydrogen at 100% efficiency would involve converting very
high value kilowatt hours into very low value kilowatt hours because of
exergy.

5 kWh/day ONLY in the southwest. The annual average for USA is 4 kWh/day.
Thats NREL data, good for most areas up to 40 degrees North.
But you have to remember the weak link in the chain, which is that
December/January average will be just over 2 kWh/day. Adding trackers will
improve that to 3 kWh/day.

[/quote:ec4eb3af05]

The assumption was that the noontime capability was one kilowatt

In general, you get five kwh or less per day for each noon kilowatt.

<http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.pdf>

See <http://www.tep.com/Green/GreenWatts/SolarOutput.asp> for current
real numbers.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don at (no spam) tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

George Cornelius...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:32 pm

Guest

Bob Eld wrote:
[original poster wrote]:
[quote:2e923fbbca]Last Update: 9/15 5:43 pm
Reported by: Kirk Matthews

uploaded by: 2ajobguide.com (http://2ajobguide.com/
wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx)

Source of Article:
http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-Plant-R
un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx

Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the energy,
[/quote:2e923fbbca]
It's 810 panels if you go to the link today, and that works out to 146kw.

Either the original post had a typo or the original page had one.
[Current value for web page's last update: 9/16 11:17 am]

With Don's number - 5kwh/kw/day - this amounts to 730 kwh. At 10c/kwh
that is $73. Similar to your 600 kwh/day calculation.

George Cornelius

AZ Nomad...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:25 pm

Guest

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:32:53 -0500, George Cornelius <STXgcorneliusETX at (no spam) charter.net> wrote:
[quote:0170f103c8]Bob Eld wrote:
[original poster wrote]:
Last Update: 9/15 5:43 pm
Reported by: Kirk Matthews

uploaded by: 2ajobguide.com (http://2ajobguide.com/
wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx)

Source of Article:
http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-Plant-R
un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx

Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the energy,

It's 810 panels if you go to the link today, and that works out to 146kw.

Either the original post had a typo or the original page had one.
[Current value for web page's last update: 9/16 11:17 am]

With Don's number - 5kwh/kw/day - this amounts to 730 kwh. At 10c/kwh
that is $73. Similar to your 600 kwh/day calculation.
[/quote:0170f103c8]
Brilliant. Slightly over a half million dollar investment with a 26K/yr return,
about 4.5% return a year. Subtract from that maintenance, property, and power
transmission preparation and you might as well take the half million and burn
it. Would be a cheaper endeavor.

Don Lancaster...

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:03 am

Guest

AZ Nomad wrote:
[quote:3cfaae6752]On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:32:53 -0500, George Cornelius <STXgcorneliusETX at (no spam) charter.net> wrote:
Bob Eld wrote:
[original poster wrote]:
Last Update: 9/15 5:43 pm
Reported by: Kirk Matthews

uploaded by: 2ajobguide.com (http://2ajobguide.com/
wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx)

Source of Article:
http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-Plant-R
un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx
Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the energy,

It's 810 panels if you go to the link today, and that works out to 146kw.

Either the original post had a typo or the original page had one.
[Current value for web page's last update: 9/16 11:17 am]

With Don's number - 5kwh/kw/day - this amounts to 730 kwh. At 10c/kwh
that is $73. Similar to your 600 kwh/day calculation.

Brilliant. Slightly over a half million dollar investment with a 26K/yr return,
about 4.5% return a year. Subtract from that maintenance, property, and power
transmission preparation and you might as well take the half million and burn
it. Would be a cheaper endeavor.
[/quote:3cfaae6752]
And the interest rate was.....???

At 4.5%, the investment would be utterly and totally pointless.
Above that, it is a gasoline destroying money sink rathole.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.asp

http://www.hsh.com/calc-amort.html

Also, with the imminicy of CIGS, there is no way in hell that existing
"eight track TTY" pv installations will still be in use even five years
from now. So ANY long term breakeven projections are worthless.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don at (no spam) tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Bob Eld...

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:35 am

Guest

"George Cornelius" <STXgcorneliusETX at (no spam) charter.net> wrote in message
news:4AB30D75.8030409 at (no spam) charter.net...
[quote:fce95435e0]Bob Eld wrote:
[original poster wrote]:
Last Update: 9/15 5:43 pm
Reported by: Kirk Matthews

uploaded by: 2ajobguide.com (http://2ajobguide.com/
wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx)

Source of Article:

http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-Plant-R
un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx

Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where
does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the
energy,

It's 810 panels if you go to the link today, and that works out to 146kw.

Either the original post had a typo or the original page had one.
[Current value for web page's last update: 9/16 11:17 am]

With Don's number - 5kwh/kw/day - this amounts to 730 kwh. At 10c/kwh
that is $73. Similar to your 600 kwh/day calculation.

George Cornelius
[/quote:fce95435e0]
My numbers were off hand and rounded. They were based on converting
electricity to fuel (hydrogen) at an absurd 100% efficiency (unobtainable
best case) and comparing it to the rough cost of gasoline, a fuel to fuel
comparison. In no way does a multi-hundred thousand dollar investment pay
off unless gasoline gets to about $20 a gallon. Or, as Don likes to say its
the equivalent of turning your dollars into pesos. My biggtest issue was not
the exact conversions values or even a typo but the fact that the original
post came from a TV report with the usual bimbos trying to talk technical.
They rarely get anything right.

Bolaleman...

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:07 am

Guest

On Sep 18, 1:35 pm, "Bob Eld" <nsmontas... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:0d2f613d3d]"George Cornelius" <STXgcornelius... at (no spam) charter.net> wrote in message

news:4AB30D75.8030409 at (no spam) charter.net...> Bob Eld wrote:
[original poster wrote]:
Last Update: 9/15 5:43 pm
Reported by: Kirk Matthews

uploaded by: 2ajobguide.com (http://2ajobguide.com/
wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx)

Source of Article:

http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-...

un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx

Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where
does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the
energy,

It's 810 panels if you go to the link today, and that works out to 146kw.

Either the original post had a typo or the original page had one.
[Current value for web page's last update: 9/16 11:17 am]

With Don's number - 5kwh/kw/day - this amounts to 730 kwh. At 10c/kwh
that is $73. Similar to your 600 kwh/day calculation.

George Cornelius

My numbers were off hand and rounded. They were based on converting
electricity to fuel (hydrogen) at an absurd 100% efficiency (unobtainable
best case) and comparing it to the rough cost of gasoline, a fuel to fuel
comparison. In no way does a multi-hundred thousand dollar investment pay
off unless gasoline gets to about $20 a gallon. Or, as Don likes to say its
the equivalent of turning your dollars into pesos. My biggtest issue was not
the exact conversions values or even a typo but the fact that the original
post came from a TV report with the usual bimbos trying to talk technical..
They rarely get anything right.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote:0d2f613d3d]
I wonder for how much they can sell their hydrogen produced in their
plant. According to an article about hydrogen price projections (even
though from 2004), the market price of this gas is about 100 $/kg plus
cylinder rental (http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_H2Price.pdf). I don't
think that this price dropped during the past years to a few dolars
per kilo.... This means that the business simply might be in selling
the hydrogen to this price which is much more than you can get just
selling the electricity.

Cheers,
Bolaleman
-------------------------------------------------
Renewable Energy Job Bank:
http://2ajobguide.com/wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx

Bolaleman...

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:44 am

Guest

On Sep 22, 12:07 pm, Bolaleman <hull... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote:cbb5d6bc85]On Sep 18, 1:35 pm, "Bob Eld" <nsmontas... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

"George Cornelius" <STXgcornelius... at (no spam) charter.net> wrote in message

news:4AB30D75.8030409 at (no spam) charter.net...> Bob Eld wrote:
[original poster wrote]:
Last Update: 9/15 5:43 pm
Reported by: Kirk Matthews

uploaded by: 2ajobguide.com (http://2ajobguide.com/
wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx)

Source of Article:

http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-...

un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx

Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where
does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the
energy,

It's 810 panels if you go to the link today, and that works out to 146kw.

Either the original post had a typo or the original page had one.
[Current value for web page's last update: 9/16 11:17 am]

With Don's number - 5kwh/kw/day - this amounts to 730 kwh. At 10c/kwh
that is $73. Similar to your 600 kwh/day calculation.

George Cornelius

My numbers were off hand and rounded. They were based on converting
electricity to fuel (hydrogen) at an absurd 100% efficiency (unobtainable
best case) and comparing it to the rough cost of gasoline, a fuel to fuel
comparison. In no way does a multi-hundred thousand dollar investment pay
off unless gasoline gets to about $20 a gallon. Or, as Don likes to say its
the equivalent of turning your dollars into pesos. My biggtest issue was not
the exact conversions values or even a typo but the fact that the original
post came from a TV report with the usual bimbos trying to talk technical.
They rarely get anything right.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I wonder for how much they can sell their hydrogen produced in their
plant. According to an article about hydrogen price projections (even
though from 2004), the market price of this gas is about 100 $/kg plus
cylinder rental (http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_H2Price.pdf). I don't
think that this price dropped during the past years to a few dolars
per kilo.... This means that the business simply might be in selling
the hydrogen to this price which is much more than you can get just
selling the electricity.

Cheers,
Bolaleman
-------------------------------------------------
Renewable Energy Job Bank:http://2ajobguide.com/wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote:cbb5d6bc85]
I think I misinterpreted this publication and in particular the
hydrogen price. Reading it again, the cost of $100/kg of hydrogen is
too high for being used as fuel in cars and the real cost of technical
grade hydrogen is rather in the range of $3/kg. As far as I know, most
of the hydrogen today is produced by thermolytic methane reforming and
electrolysis cannot (or could not in the past) compete with this
process. The production of hydrogen by electrolysis consumes in the
range of 65 kWh/kg (http://www.evnut.com/docs/acp_fc_pollution.pdf)
which means that with a 146 kW solar pannel it should be possible to
produce about 2.24 kg of hydrogen per hour or 22 kg per day
(considering 10 hours production per day). Let's say the 22 kg of
hydrogen could be sold for a price of $3/kg, the profit would be $66
per day. This is almost the same conclusion Bob got comparing the
energy of the produced hydrogen with the corresponding gasoline price.
There really seems no way to save $43,000 per year..... Or we are all
wrong Smile

Eeyore...

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:32 pm

Guest

Bolaleman wrote:
[quote:630229070f]This photovoltaic solar panel array was created by Sunetric. It is
powerful."It's 146 kilowatts. It's made up of about 210 180 watt
panels. It's enough to power about 30 to 35 homes,” said Sean Mullen
of Sunetric.
[/quote:630229070f]
Solar PV panels are HOPELESSLY inefficient.

Anyone thinking they are our saviour are ignorant non-scientific IDIOTS.

Graham

DanB...

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:45 pm

Guest

Eeyore wrote:
[quote:c76771bd02]Bolaleman wrote:
This photovoltaic solar panel array was created by Sunetric. It is
powerful."It's 146 kilowatts. It's made up of about 210 180 watt
panels. It's enough to power about 30 to 35 homes,” said Sean Mullen
of Sunetric.

Solar PV panels are HOPELESSLY inefficient.

Anyone thinking they are our saviour are ignorant non-scientific IDIOTS.

Graham
[/quote:c76771bd02]
Wow Graham,
You are suddenly back!! Good to see you. Can't stay away from the pub, ey?

Dan.

DanB...

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:19 pm

Guest

hhc314 wrote:
[quote:c048c333ec]On Sep 16, 10:07 am, "Bob Eld" <nsmontas... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Just as free advice, whenever you are tempted to invest your
money in a scheme that sounds too good to be true, find an engineer or
scientist that you can trust, and have his show you how to look at the
'details' and run the numbers.

Harry C.
[/quote:c048c333ec]
Bob Eld looking at the numbers?! That would be novel...

Eeyore...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:41 pm

Guest

Bob Eld wrote:
[quote]"Bolaleman" <hulle06 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote

Source of Article:
http://www.khon2.com/content/begreen2/story/Be-Green-2-Hydrogen-Fuel-Plant-R
un-By-Solar-Power/c_bA8ktWMUCKLJpN4yS7Xw.cspx

Well let's see: 210, 180 Watt panels is 37.8kW? Not 146kW. So, where does
that number come from? But, even using that high 146kW number the energy,
at best, is equal to about 600kWhr each day or 24 hour period. If that
could be converted to hydrogen at 100% efficiency which isn't possible, it
would equal the energy of 17 gal of gasoline! Wow! That's about $50 per day
yield! But these clowns claim $43,000 per year savings??? So why does none
of this add up? As usual, its all hype and bull shit not based in reality,
generated by a marketing department or worse, a local TV station by people
who don't know a watt from a cheeseburger.

Is it possible that the 146kW number is supposed to be 146kWhrs, the total
amount of energy collected in one day? If so, the prolific yield would equal
abut four gallons of gasoline per day. Now I'm really impressed, that's
about $12 a day. What an investment! Checking numbers is important!
[/quote]
Don't confuse the gullible with FACTS, never mind SCIENCE or MATHEMATICS !

One thing for sure, there will never be a hydrogen economy. It's a
clever ruse to get 'research grants' though.

Graham

Eeyore...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:47 pm

Guest

Bolaleman wrote:
[quote]
They don't anything about the voltage that comes out of this system.
[/quote]
Entirely irrelevant. Only the power ( rate of energy ) or total energy
counts.

[quote]Isn't it possible that the voltage is that low that they prefer to use
it for feeding an electrolysis cell to produce hydrogen?
[/quote]
Never heard of an inverter ?

[quote]Maybe this question is stupid but I am not really a photovoltaic
expert.
[/quote]
Yes, the question IS stupid and you are indeed no photovoltaic expert.
Not to mention the huge losses in electrolysing water to hydrogen and
the problems in storing and distribution of hydrogen. Try reading up the
FACTS on it before posting idiotic nonsense.

Graham

Eeyore...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:51 pm

Guest

Sam West wrote:
[quote]
For example, William Mook, in conjunction with Boeing's Spectrolab and
MokEnergy, claims that he produces solar energy using equipment that
costs as little as $50 per peak kilowatt!
[/quote]
You pay for energy by the kilowatt hour not by the kilowatt !

As ever someone who hasn't a clue about scientific units.

Graham

Eeyore...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:53 pm

Guest

Sam West wrote:
[quote]
The hydrogen may also be burned any time energy its needed.
[/quote]
How do you plan to store it for later use ?

Graham

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