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| Panu... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:33 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 11:01 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 3:56 pm, Panu <craoibhi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:41 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar?
What you don't know is how to write his name correctly.
Myself, I am not too familiar with his work either, but some years ago
I read his "Tristes Tropiques" in a Finnish translation.
And the book you mention is, obviously, Malcolm Bradbury's "Rates of
Exchange", translated into Finnish as "Vaihtokurssit".-
He's not a linguistics professor, either ...
[/quote]
No, he isn't. And he hasn't even told me his address, so that I could
send him a copy of my Irish book. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:48 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 4:33 pm, Panu <craoibhi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 11:01 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Nov 5, 3:56 pm, Panu <craoibhi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:41 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar?
What you don't know is how to write his name correctly.
Myself, I am not too familiar with his work either, but some years ago
I read his "Tristes Tropiques" in a Finnish translation.
And the book you mention is, obviously, Malcolm Bradbury's "Rates of
Exchange", translated into Finnish as "Vaihtokurssit".-
He's not a linguistics professor, either ...
No, he isn't. And he hasn't even told me his address, so that I could
send him a copy of my Irish book.-
[/quote]
Why would Malcolm Bradbury (d. 2000) be interested in your Irish book? |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:30 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 5:48 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 4:33 pm, Panu <craoibhi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:01 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Nov 5, 3:56 pm, Panu <craoibhi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:41 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar?
What you don't know is how to write his name correctly.
Myself, I am not too familiar with his work either, but some years ago
I read his "Tristes Tropiques" in a Finnish translation.
And the book you mention is, obviously, Malcolm Bradbury's "Rates of
Exchange", translated into Finnish as "Vaihtokurssit".-
He's not a linguistics professor, either ...
No, he isn't. And he hasn't even told me his address, so that I could
send him a copy of my Irish book.-
Why would Malcolm Bradbury (d. 2000) be interested in your Irish book?
[/quote]
I thought you were referring to *Franz* being "not a linguistics
professor", becaise he wasn't able to write Lévi-Strauss's name
correctly. The fact that Franz had confused the protagonist and the
writer didn't dawn upon me until now, because I read his posting
sloppily. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:40 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 9:54 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
That doesn't sound like anything Claude Levi-Strauss would have
written. Are you maybe thinking of Levy-Bruhl?
[/quote]
If you don't know about exchange you don't know about CLS.
He understood society as a structure of exchange that is
mirrored in language. The book I read in 1965 was by him
and nobody else, he spoke of exchanging gifts and other
goods and especially women in tribal society, Brazil I must
assume. I admired his intellectual audacity but could never
really understand the parallel of exchange in society and
language. Yet his ideas about exchange may subconsciously
have paved the way for my later definition of language.
Needs and wishes make us exchange all kinds of goods
and actions. I don't grow wheat and don't ground grains
to flour and don't bake bread (did in earlier years, though),
so I go to a bakery and buy me a fine round and deliciously
smelling loaf of Swiss bread, not the pale Sponge Bob article
you are selling for bread, and I pay with money, whereupon
the baker family, with all the money they earn selling their
fine bread, can pay for other things they need and don't
produce themselves. Language prompts exchanges of all sorts,
preparing, accompanying and concluding them. I could enter
the bakery with a friendly smile, point to a bread, lay the accurate
sum of money on the counter, take the bread, nod, and leave
the bakery without any word, the whole transaction done with
body language alone. Or I could greet the baker woman, ask
for this or that loaf, she will tell me how much it costs and
give me the bread, I will thank her, she will thank for the money,
we will say good buy to each other, and I will leave the bakery.
This time the exchange is accompanied by word language.
[quote]One of David Lodge's "academic" trilogy? Small World, Changing Places,
and the third one?
[/quote]
Yes, David Lodge is the name. I will look in the university library
if I find the book I had read, so that I can quote the long passage
on exchange. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:50 pm |
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Guest
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On the exchange of women you may google for "alliance theory"
and look up the Wikipedia article for a begin. CLS wrote his
seminal work already in 1949, the year I was born.
On Nov 6, 9:40 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 9:54 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
That doesn't sound like anything Claude Levi-Strauss would have
written. Are you maybe thinking of Levy-Bruhl?
If you don't know about exchange you don't know about CLS.
He understood society as a structure of exchange that is
mirrored in language. The book I read in 1965 was by him
and nobody else, he spoke of exchanging gifts and other
goods and especially women in tribal society, Brazil I must
assume. I admired his intellectual audacity but could never
really understand the parallel of exchange in society and
language. Yet his ideas about exchange may subconsciously
have paved the way for my later definition of language.
Needs and wishes make us exchange all kinds of goods
and actions. I don't grow wheat and don't ground grains
to flour and don't bake bread (did in earlier years, though),
so I go to a bakery and buy me a fine round and deliciously
smelling loaf of Swiss bread, not the pale Sponge Bob article
you are selling for bread, and I pay with money, whereupon
the baker family, with all the money they earn selling their
fine bread, can pay for other things they need and don't
produce themselves. Language prompts exchanges of all sorts,
preparing, accompanying and concluding them. I could enter
the bakery with a friendly smile, point to a bread, lay the accurate
sum of money on the counter, take the bread, nod, and leave
the bakery without any word, the whole transaction done with
body language alone. Or I could greet the baker woman, ask
for this or that loaf, she will tell me how much it costs and
give me the bread, I will thank her, she will thank for the money,
we will say good buy to each other, and I will leave the bakery.
This time the exchange is accompanied by word language.
One of David Lodge's "academic" trilogy? Small World, Changing Places,
and the third one?
Yes, David Lodge is the name. I will look in the university library
if I find the book I had read, so that I can quote the long passage
on exchange.[/quote] |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:21 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 3:50 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On the exchange of women you may google for "alliance theory"
and look up the Wikipedia article for a begin. CLS wrote his
seminal work already in 1949, the year I was born.
On Nov 6, 9:40 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 5, 9:54 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
That doesn't sound like anything Claude Levi-Strauss would have
written. Are you maybe thinking of Levy-Bruhl?
If you don't know about exchange you don't know about CLS.
He understood society as a structure of exchange that is
mirrored in language. The book I read in 1965 was by him
and nobody else, he spoke of exchanging gifts and other
goods and especially women in tribal society, Brazil I must
assume. I admired his intellectual audacity but could never
really understand the parallel of exchange in society and
language. Yet his ideas about exchange may subconsciously
have paved the way for my later definition of language.
Needs and wishes make us exchange all kinds of goods
and actions. I don't grow wheat and don't ground grains
to flour and don't bake bread (did in earlier years, though),
so I go to a bakery and buy me a fine round and deliciously
smelling loaf of Swiss bread, not the pale Sponge Bob article
you are selling for bread, and I pay with money, whereupon
the baker family, with all the money they earn selling their
fine bread, can pay for other things they need and don't
produce themselves. Language prompts exchanges of all sorts,
preparing, accompanying and concluding them. I could enter
the bakery with a friendly smile, point to a bread, lay the accurate
sum of money on the counter, take the bread, nod, and leave
the bakery without any word, the whole transaction done with
body language alone. Or I could greet the baker woman, ask
for this or that loaf, she will tell me how much it costs and
give me the bread, I will thank her, she will thank for the money,
we will say good buy to each other, and I will leave the bakery.
This time the exchange is accompanied by word language.
One of David Lodge's "academic" trilogy? Small World, Changing Places,
and the third one?
Yes, David Lodge is the name. I will look in the university library
if I find the book I had read, so that I can quote the long passage
on exchange.-
[/quote]
Yet you're still not able to name this book that he wrote in 1949 and
you read in 1965?
I'll give you a little help: it was *The Elementary Structures of
Kinship*.
A revised edition was published in 1967.
_If_ it deals with "exchange," that concept does not appear in his
later works, the ones for which he is known, beginning with *Tristes
Tropiques* and *The Savage Mind*, and culminating in the four volumes
of Mythologiques (starting with *The Raw and the Cooked*, whose title
encapsulates his entire worldview).
More likely, you have misremembered (as often) or misunderstood the
concept of "opposition." |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:36 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 1:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Yet you're still not able to name this book that he wrote in 1949 and
you read in 1965?
I'll give you a little help: it was *The Elementary Structures of
Kinship*.
A revised edition was published in 1967.
_If_ it deals with "exchange," that concept does not appear in his
later works, the ones for which he is known, beginning with *Tristes
Tropiques* and *The Savage Mind*, and culminating in the four volumes
of Mythologiques (starting with *The Raw and the Cooked*, whose title
encapsulates his entire worldview).
More likely, you have misremembered (as often) or misunderstood the
concept of "opposition."
[/quote]
I don't remember what book or paper by CLS I read
in the later 1960s, but I clearly remember that it was
about kinship and the exchange of women, exchange
being the big issue that links society and language.
I understood the exchange of women as consequence
of the incest taboo, but I did not understand how CLS
can link this exchange with language, so what I kept
in mind is that exchange as basic structure of society
is in some way related to language, even deeply related,
but how exactly? And this must have helped me arrive
at my definition of language from 1974/75: Language
is the means of getting help, support and understanding
from those we depend upon in one way or another, and
every means of getting help, support and understanding
may be called language, on whatever level of life it occurs ...
All that help, support and understanding can be seen and
could well be formulated in terms of exchange, so I carried
the work of CLS further. My interest is not in remembering
bibliographica but in distilling the basic ideas and carry
them on, developing them further. Don't you know by now? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:00 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 3:36 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 6, 1:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Yet you're still not able to name this book that he wrote in 1949 and
you read in 1965?
I'll give you a little help: it was *The Elementary Structures of
Kinship*.
A revised edition was published in 1967.
_If_ it deals with "exchange," that concept does not appear in his
later works, the ones for which he is known, beginning with *Tristes
Tropiques* and *The Savage Mind*, and culminating in the four volumes
of Mythologiques (starting with *The Raw and the Cooked*, whose title
encapsulates his entire worldview).
More likely, you have misremembered (as often) or misunderstood the
concept of "opposition."
I don't remember what book or paper by CLS I read
in the later 1960s, but I clearly remember that it was
[/quote]
You said it was published in 1949. Levi-Strauss published only one
book before 1955, and it was published in 1949, and it was *The
Elementary Structures of Kinship*.
[quote]about kinship and the exchange of women, exchange
being the big issue that links society and language.
I understood the exchange of women as consequence
of the incest taboo, but I did not understand how CLS
can link this exchange with language, so what I kept
in mind is that exchange as basic structure of society
is in some way related to language, even deeply related,
but how exactly? And this must have helped me arrive
at my definition of language from 1974/75: Language
is the means of getting help, support and understanding
from those we depend upon in one way or another, and
every means of getting help, support and understanding
may be called language, on whatever level of life it occurs ...
All that help, support and understanding can be seen and
could well be formulated in terms of exchange, so I carried
the work of CLS further. My interest is not in remembering
bibliographica but in distilling the basic ideas and carry
them on, developing them further. Don't you know by now?-
[/quote]
Actually, Levi-Strauss carried the work of Levi-Strauss further. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:30 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 2:00 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 7, 3:36 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 6, 1:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Yet you're still not able to name this book that he wrote in 1949 and
you read in 1965?
I'll give you a little help: it was *The Elementary Structures of
Kinship*.
A revised edition was published in 1967.
_If_ it deals with "exchange," that concept does not appear in his
later works, the ones for which he is known, beginning with *Tristes
Tropiques* and *The Savage Mind*, and culminating in the four volumes
of Mythologiques (starting with *The Raw and the Cooked*, whose title
encapsulates his entire worldview).
More likely, you have misremembered (as often) or misunderstood the
concept of "opposition."
I don't remember what book or paper by CLS I read
in the later 1960s, but I clearly remember that it was
You said it was published in 1949. Levi-Strauss published only one
book before 1955, and it was published in 1949, and it was *The
Elementary Structures of Kinship*.
[/quote]
I said he published his seminal work in 1949,
but then he published many more books, and
especially in the 1960s. I don't recall which
book I read, only that it was about kinship and
exchange of women. How many times must
I repeat myself? A good book is like a bird cage:
open it and the birds fly out ... I care for the birds,
not for the cage. For ideas, not bibliography.
[quote]Actually, Levi-Strauss carried the work of Levi-Strauss further.
[/quote]
So he did a bad job, when even y o u don't know
his ideas about exchange of gifts and goods and
especially women; they apparently did not catch on,
and when not even a bright chap such as me gets
the parallel between exchange of women and
language who else will? He was up to something
big, but I had to straighten him to make it really work.
Pas de quoi, you are welcome. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:27 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 11:30 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 7, 2:00 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Nov 7, 3:36 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 6, 1:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Yet you're still not able to name this book that he wrote in 1949 and
you read in 1965?
I'll give you a little help: it was *The Elementary Structures of
Kinship*.
A revised edition was published in 1967.
_If_ it deals with "exchange," that concept does not appear in his
later works, the ones for which he is known, beginning with *Tristes
Tropiques* and *The Savage Mind*, and culminating in the four volumes
of Mythologiques (starting with *The Raw and the Cooked*, whose title
encapsulates his entire worldview).
More likely, you have misremembered (as often) or misunderstood the
concept of "opposition."
I don't remember what book or paper by CLS I read
in the later 1960s, but I clearly remember that it was
You said it was published in 1949. Levi-Strauss published only one
book before 1955, and it was published in 1949, and it was *The
Elementary Structures of Kinship*.
I said he published his seminal work in 1949,
[/quote]
No, you did not. You said that in 1965 you read a book by him
published in 1949.
[quote]but then he published many more books, and
especially in the 1960s. I don't recall which
book I read, only that it was about kinship and
exchange of women. How many times must
I repeat myself? A good book is like a bird cage:
open it and the birds fly out ... I care for the birds,
not for the cage. For ideas, not bibliography.
Actually, Levi-Strauss carried the work of Levi-Strauss further.
So he did a bad job, when even y o u don't know
his ideas about exchange of gifts and goods and
especially women; they apparently did not catch on,
[/quote]
Or else you are misremembering and/or misinterpreting what you think
you read, which we know you often do.
[quote]and when not even a bright chap such as me gets
the parallel between exchange of women and
language who else will? He was up to something
big, but I had to straighten him to make it really work.
Pas de quoi, you are welcome.-[/quote] |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:51 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 6:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
No, you did not. You said that in 1965 you read a book by him
published in 1949.
Or else you are misremembering and/or misinterpreting what you think
you read, which we know you often do.
[/quote]
You are perpeterally nagging me about bibliographic
details! I do not remember which book I read, but
I clearly remember that exchange and especially
the exchange of women was the big issue. Claude
Lévi-Strauss understood the exchange of gifts and
goods and women as a form of communication
among social entities. Ergo there is a parallel to
language. But how exactly? I was intrigued by the
audacious reasoning, but I didn't really understand
the parallel between the exchange of women as
consequence of the incest taboo and language.
Now if you aspire to become my biobibliographer
you may compile a list of all his publications wherein
he developed his theory of exchange, and then muse
which of his books I might have bought in the locally
famous Bänziger bookstore in Einsiedeln, canton
Schwyz, in the 1960s? More rewarding in my opinion
would be to ponder another question: Why did the
theory of exchange, all the rage in the 1960s, not
really catch on but give way and succumb to a new
mega-trend, namely generative grammar? Perhaps
because the latter is more appealing in the Computer
Age than are the so-called primitive arts to which
Claude Lévi-Strauss had "un lien presque charnel"
according to one of the many obituaries in Le Monde?
Who studies primitive and early and cave art and all
that mythological mess when computer-compatible
generative diagrams provide a quick and easy access
to the workings of language? |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:52 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 8, 9:51 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 7, 6:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
No, you did not. You said that in 1965 you read a book by him
published in 1949.
Or else you are misremembering and/or misinterpreting what you think
you read, which we know you often do.
You are perpeterally nagging me about bibliographic
details!
[/quote]
You are complaining all the time about how you aren't taken seriously
as a "scientific" researcher. Well, here is another reason why. If you
want to be a scholar, you'll pay attention to bibliographic details.
That is very central and important. It is part of your professional
skills as a scholar.
It is OK to think outside the box. But unprofessional sloppiness is
not the same as thinking outside the box. It is unprofessional
sloppiness.
When you learn to pay attention to bibliographic detail, you'll be
taken considerably more seriously. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:05 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 8, 2:51 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 7, 6:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
No, you did not. You said that in 1965 you read a book by him
published in 1949.
Or else you are misremembering and/or misinterpreting what you think
you read, which we know you often do.
You are perpeterally nagging me about bibliographic
details! I do not remember which book I read, but
I clearly remember that exchange and especially
the exchange of women was the big issue. Claude
Lévi-Strauss understood the exchange of gifts and
goods and women as a form of communication
among social entities. Ergo there is a parallel to
language. \
[/quote]
So this is _your_ "ergo," and not his at all??
[quote]But how exactly? I was intrigued by the
audacious reasoning, but I didn't really understand
the parallel between the exchange of women as
consequence of the incest taboo and language.
Now if you aspire to become my biobibliographer
you may compile a list of all his publications wherein
he developed his theory of exchange, and then muse
[/quote]
Since I have never heard of "his theory of exchange," and it seems
unknown to the writers on structuralism in the 1960s and 1970s, when
structuralism was very much in vogue, I don't think that's possible.
[quote]which of his books I might have bought in the locally
famous Bänziger bookstore in Einsiedeln, canton
Schwyz, in the 1960s? More rewarding in my opinion
[/quote]
Why do you make me repeat it again and again? Elementary Structures of
Kinship, 1949; Tristes Tropiques, 1955; The Savage Mind, 1962.
[quote]would be to ponder another question: Why did the
theory of exchange, all the rage in the 1960s, not
really catch on but give way and succumb to a new
mega-trend, namely generative grammar? Perhaps
because the latter is more appealing in the Computer
[/quote]
So now you are claiming that "the theory of exchange" was "all the
rage" _in linguistics_?????
Now I _know_ you are misremembering and mistranslating _something_,
and it must be the notion of the opposition of distinctive features
(which was, of course, incorporated wholesale into phonology by Roman
Jakobson and Morris Halle).
[quote]Age than are the so-called primitive arts to which
Claude Lévi-Strauss had "un lien presque charnel"
according to one of the many obituaries in Le Monde?
Who studies primitive and early and cave art and all
that mythological mess when computer-compatible
generative diagrams provide a quick and easy access
to the workings of language?
[/quote]
"Primitive and early and cave art and all that mythological mess" have
nothing to tell either us or CL-S about "the workings of language."
The concept of _binary opposition_, which he did not develop from
"primitive and early and cave art," tells us and CL-S about the
workings of the human mind. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:25 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 8, 3:05 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Since I have never heard of "his theory of exchange," and it seems
unknown to the writers on structuralism in the 1960s and 1970s, when
structuralism was very much in vogue, I don't think that's possible.
Why do you make me repeat it again and again? Elementary Structures of
Kinship, 1949; Tristes Tropiques, 1955; The Savage Mind, 1962.
So now you are claiming that "the theory of exchange" was "all the
rage" _in linguistics_?????
Now I _know_ you are misremembering and mistranslating _something_,
and it must be the notion of the opposition of distinctive features
(which was, of course, incorporated wholesale into phonology by Roman
Jakobson and Morris Halle).
"Primitive and early and cave art and all that mythological mess" have
nothing to tell either us or CL-S about "the workings of language."
The concept of _binary opposition_, which he did not develop from
"primitive and early and cave art," tells us and CL-S about the
workings of the human mind.
[/quote]
Claude Lévi-Strauss believed that language and marriage
rules (exchange of women) and primitive art are manifestations
of the same workings of the mind, he published this in his book
La pensée sauvage in 1962, and it may well be that I read this
book in 1965. Many consider it his major work. The English
translation The Savage Mind is incorrect, the original title
can't really be translated. I see now that I am deeply indebted
to Claude Lévi-Strauss, for I connect cave art with early language,
manifestations of the same workings of the human mind. The
book I read in 1965, probably La Pensée sauvage, must have
exerted a deep influence on me, although rather subconsciously.
Nice to realize that now, more that forty years later. Thank you,
Claude Lévi-Strauss. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:59 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 9, 4:25 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 8, 3:05 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Since I have never heard of "his theory of exchange," and it seems
unknown to the writers on structuralism in the 1960s and 1970s, when
structuralism was very much in vogue, I don't think that's possible.
Why do you make me repeat it again and again? Elementary Structures of
Kinship, 1949; Tristes Tropiques, 1955; The Savage Mind, 1962.
So now you are claiming that "the theory of exchange" was "all the
rage" _in linguistics_?????
Now I _know_ you are misremembering and mistranslating _something_,
and it must be the notion of the opposition of distinctive features
(which was, of course, incorporated wholesale into phonology by Roman
Jakobson and Morris Halle).
"Primitive and early and cave art and all that mythological mess" have
nothing to tell either us or CL-S about "the workings of language."
The concept of _binary opposition_, which he did not develop from
"primitive and early and cave art," tells us and CL-S about the
workings of the human mind.
Claude Lévi-Strauss believed that language and marriage
rules (exchange of women) and primitive art are manifestations
of the same workings of the mind, he published this in his book
La pensée sauvage in 1962, and it may well be that I read this
book in 1965. Many consider it his major work. The English
translation The Savage Mind is incorrect, the original title
can't really be translated. I see now that I am deeply indebted
to Claude Lévi-Strauss, for I connect cave art with early language,
manifestations of the same workings of the human mind. The
book I read in 1965, probably La Pensée sauvage, must have
exerted a deep influence on me, although rather subconsciously.
Nice to realize that now, more that forty years later. Thank you,
Claude Lévi-Strauss.-
[/quote]
The index of *The Savage Mind* has no entry for "exchange." The
chapter on exogamy and endogamy (ch. 3) begins with a sentence
summarizing the previous chapter, which deals with "differentiaton,"
which is the key concept underlying the binary oppositions illustrated
in that chapter. Is that perhaps what you are (misleadingly) rendering
as "exchange"? What is the French word?
(I see from amazon.fr that the Pleiade ed. of CL-S costs a bit over
$100 -- E67 -- which is considerably less than the individual volumes
would be, purchased separately, if it were any more possible to get
them here. And in looking for a US source, I discovered that the
Librairie de France, the last remaining original retail tenant of
Rockefeller Center, has been forced to close because its rent was more
than tripled to $1million a year.) |
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