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| Panu... |
 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:00 am |
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On Oct 31, 6:27 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 2:26 pm, analys... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
The Indians solved the problem by having multiple origin myths. One
story has creation arising from a cosmic egg, another by the sacrifice
of a primordial man (similar to the earlier Titans giving way to the
Olympian Gods in Greek mythology) and ther are probably others.
The linguistic part of your work in my judgement has clearly passed
the test of plausibility. Unifying the earliest myths, rituals and
spiritual practices of Eurasia, possibly into a few archetypal themes
is the work that awaits you.
You might want to use the analogy of dreams - you might have a mundane
experience involving a friend - and that night you have a dream
concerning that friend in a highly enriched setting with fantastic
events. The physical reality was the cycles of the Sun, Moon, stars,
birth, death, weather phenomena fearsome animals etc. - and the
language instinct must have woven the earliest myths from the real
world.
You describe it very well. And you can also imagine
them sitting around a fire by night, the flames going
down, only embers glowing, the stars shining brightly
overhead, and then the phantasy works and makes
out patterns among the stars and perceives all kinds
of constellations, a man here, a bear over there,
a story begins to unveal - the first cinema in the world,
and for free. Consider that we say movie _star_ ...
[/quote]
Franz, here is a link for you:
http://www.evertype.com/books/sciorrfhocail.html |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:41 pm |
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I use my Magdalenian thread for publishing my ideas,
which I often develop in discussions led in other threads.
These days I give the summary of my ideas regarding
the world as bull valley MUC DAL, and I dedicated
my message from yesterday to Claude Lévi-Strauss,
who, I heard on the Radio, had died at the proud age
of one hundred years, only a couple of weeks before
his 101st birthday. So I dedicated my message to him.
I estimate him very much, for he taught us that we can
look at the world in completely new and productive ways.
His idea was to apply language and the structural laws
of language to culture. He understood language as
exchange, and the same exchange, he says, happens
in culture, for example when families exchange women.
I never really understood this comparison, exchanging
words and exchanging women, and as far as I know,
structuralism, once the raving of academe, has been
more or less abandoned, given up in favor of new trends.
But I think Claude Lévi-Strauss was up to something,
and perhaps he would have liked my definition of
language from 1974/75: Language is the means of
getting help, support and understanding from those
we depend upon in one way or another, and every
means of getting help, support and understanding
may be called language, on whatever level of life
it occurs ... Claude Léevi-Strauss could easily have
wrapped my definition around his idea of exchange.
I can't do it myself, but perhaps a reader can?
Could Peter tell me more about Lévi-Strauss and
shed light on this one's ideas on exchange? |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:39 am |
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On Nov 5, 11:41 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]I my my I I I my I I I I I I my my I myself
[/quote]
That sums it up neatly. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:27 am |
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On Nov 5, 4:41 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]Claude Léevi-Strauss could easily have
wrapped my definition around his idea of exchange.
I can't do it myself, but perhaps a reader can?
Could Peter tell me more about Lévi-Strauss and
shed light on this one's ideas on exchange?
[/quote]
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp>
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.) |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:43 am |
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On Nov 5, 7:36 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Nov 5, 4:41 am, Franz Gnaedinger<f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
Claude Léevi-Strauss (...)
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career.<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
No one knows. But in this case, no, you don't. In doubt, transmit the
whole link (with no line breaks, if possible).
[/quote]
Well, it wasn't broken when I pasted it in!
If that were an undergraduate essay on structuralism, it would have
gotten an A+.
When the TLS reviewed the Pleiade edition (which is not everything he
wrote, but basically just the major books), I discovered it can't be
gotten in the US. (The price would have been ridiculous, but
still ...)
The NY Times udually does surprisingly well on linguistics obituaries
(and the headline always says "language scholar"); see those for
Jakobson and for Jim McCawley. It's pretty likely that Chomsky has
helped with his own! |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:46 am |
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On Nov 5, 8:01 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
When the TLS reviewed the Pleiade edition (which is not everything he
wrote, but basically just the major books), I discovered it can't be
gotten in the US. (The price would have been ridiculous, but
still ...)
Can't? Is this what you're referring to?http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-Claude-Lévi-Strauss/dp/2070118029/
[/quote]
amazon.fr isn't amazon.com!
[quote]If so, you apparently can get it (ridiculousness of price notwithstanding):http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=&lang=en&submit=Begin...
Though I have some misgivings about these behemoth editions.
[/quote]
Pleiades are anything but behemoth. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:34 am |
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On Nov 5, 10:22 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:01 am, António Marques<m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
When the TLS reviewed the Pleiade edition (which is not everything he
wrote, but basically just the major books), I discovered it can't be
gotten in the US. (The price would have been ridiculous, but
still ...)
Can't? Is this what you're referring to?http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-Claude-Lévi-Strauss/dp/2070118029/
amazon.fr isn't amazon.com!
They do deliver overseas (and maybe in that bookfinder page there's some
shipping-from-the-US deal). My problem is usually how to get US editions
shipping from Europe (much faster and guarranteed customs-free), but the
UKers, the BRDers or the CHers can often provide them.
If so, you apparently can get it (ridiculousness of price notwithstanding):http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=&lang=en&submit=Begin...
Though I have some misgivings about these behemoth editions.
Pleiades are anything but behemoth.
2128 pages? Well, my copy of the recherche for the temps perdu is
bigger, but it's not something I like to carry around.
[/quote]
At least according to the TLS review, it's two volumes. And Pleiades
are on very thin ("Bible") paper, and considerably smaller in height
and width than most books. The superb Encyclopedie volume *Le langage*
edited by Martinet is just over 1500 pages and is no thicker than a
conventional 300-page book. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:36 am |
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Guest
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 4:41 am, Franz Gnaedinger<f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
Claude Léevi-Strauss (...)
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career.<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
[/quote]
No one knows. But in this case, no, you don't. In doubt, transmit the
whole link (with no line breaks, if possible). |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:01 am |
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Guest
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]When the TLS reviewed the Pleiade edition (which is not everything he
wrote, but basically just the major books), I discovered it can't be
gotten in the US. (The price would have been ridiculous, but
still ...)
[/quote]
Can't? Is this what you're referring to?
http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-Claude-Lévi-Strauss/dp/2070118029/
If so, you apparently can get it (ridiculousness of price notwithstanding):
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=&lang=en&submit=Begin+search&new_used=*&destination=us¤cy=USD&binding=*&isbn=2070118029&keywords=&minprice=&maxprice=&mode=advanced&st=sr&ac=qr
Though I have some misgivings about these behemoth editions. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:41 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
[/quote]
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar? |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:22 am |
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Guest
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 8:01 am, António Marques<m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
When the TLS reviewed the Pleiade edition (which is not everything he
wrote, but basically just the major books), I discovered it can't be
gotten in the US. (The price would have been ridiculous, but
still ...)
Can't? Is this what you're referring to?http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-Claude-Lévi-Strauss/dp/2070118029/
amazon.fr isn't amazon.com!
[/quote]
They do deliver overseas (and maybe in that bookfinder page there's some
shipping-from-the-US deal). My problem is usually how to get US editions
shipping from Europe (much faster and guarranteed customs-free), but the
UKers, the BRDers or the CHers can often provide them.
[quote]If so, you apparently can get it (ridiculousness of price notwithstanding):http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=&lang=en&submit=Begin...
Though I have some misgivings about these behemoth editions.
Pleiades are anything but behemoth.
[/quote]
2128 pages? Well, my copy of the recherche for the temps perdu is
bigger, but it's not something I like to carry around. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:54 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 1:41 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
[/quote]
studying
[quote]Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
[/quote]
Really? Like that article you insisted was by Eric Hamp, and
eventually discovered wasn't?
[quote]exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
[/quote]
That doesn't sound like anything Claude Levi-Strauss would have
written. Are you maybe thinking of Levy-Bruhl?
[quote]for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
[/quote]
One of David Lodge's "academic" trilogy? Small World, Changing Places,
and the third one?
Lodge is a professor not of linguistics, but of literary theory. In
his latest, Deaf Sentence, he gets several things about linguistics
subtly wrong, and the reader can't be sure whether they are the
author's mistakes, or mistakes he puts in the mouth of the professor-
narrator character to show that he's not as competent as he thinks
himself to be.
[quote]on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
[/quote]
You don't know how to spell his name, for instance.
[quote]tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar?
[/quote]
It was probably the idea of someone else entirely. |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:56 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 8:41 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar?
[/quote]
What you don't know is how to write his name correctly.
Myself, I am not too familiar with his work either, but some years ago
I read his "Tristes Tropiques" in a Finnish translation.
And the book you mention is, obviously, Malcolm Bradbury's "Rates of
Exchange", translated into Finnish as "Vaihtokurssit". |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:01 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 3:56 pm, Panu <craoibhi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 8:41 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Unless you're relying on some sort of mistranslation among French,
German, and English, I don't know where you're getting "exchange"
from. The basic concept in structuralism is "opposition." CL-S was
developing it in anthropology at the same time Roman Jakobson was
developing it in linguistics, and indeed they collaborated at least
once, on a piece of literary analysis. They worked side by side in New
York during the War; Jakobson moved on to Harvard, and Levi-Strauss to
Paris.
Edward Rothstein's obituary in the New York Times did an excellent job
of summarizing his career. <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/
europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
Thank you for the link, I will read that paper tomorrow.
I first heard of Claude Lévy-Strauss when in Paris
at age sixteen, learning French at the Académie
Française with a schollfriend of mine, for a month
in our summer holidays. Back home in the monastery
school I read a book or paper by him, and it was about
exchange, language as exchange compared with
families who exchange women. I admired the author
for the audacity of his reasoning, but never really got
his meaning. A couple of years ago I read a hilarious
novel by an American (or British?) linguistics professor
relying mainly on Lévy-Strauss, and again elaborating
on exchange. A pity I didn't keep that book. Perhaps
someone else read it? The phrase that made me laugh
was: ... in a chair in the air on the way to Plopov ...
Some professor flew to an eastern European country
resembling Bulgaria, and he was really seated in
a chair in the air, but to imagine this, a professor
in a chair in the air ... Does it ring a bell with a reader?
And yesterday evening a Swiss radio station rung
up Mario Erdheim, an ethno-psychoanalyst, asking
him for a few words about Lévy-Strauss. He said
that L-S applied language to the working of society
and made previously unthinkalbe things accessible
to reasoning - but then a patient was at the door,
and he couldn't speak no longer. So that is what
I know about Lévy-Strauss, mainly. Can anyone
tell me what that is about language as exchange
in comparison with exchange in society, especially
exchanging women? Or was this only a fleeting idea
of the relatively young scholar?
What you don't know is how to write his name correctly.
Myself, I am not too familiar with his work either, but some years ago
I read his "Tristes Tropiques" in a Finnish translation.
And the book you mention is, obviously, Malcolm Bradbury's "Rates of
Exchange", translated into Finnish as "Vaihtokurssit".-
[/quote]
He's not a linguistics professor, either ... |
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| John Dunlop... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:06 am |
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Peter T. Daniels:
[quote]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/europe/04levistrauss.html?_r=1&hp
(Do you need the characters after "html"? This is the form in which it
was circulated on an ancient history list.)
[/quote]
No, you don't need them. Under the heading "share" in the "article tools"
section is the "permalink":
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/europe/04levistrauss.html
--
John |
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