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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
 Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:03 pm |
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Guest
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[quote]Now for India. Some link Mohenjo-Daro with Mahon
the All Beautiful, byname, epithet and avatar of Krishna,
who, according to another of his many bynames, also
was the son of Nandi, the sacred bull personifying
Shiva's creative powers. Krishna was raised among
cows. He was an avatar of Vishnu whose heavenly
abode I located in the Summer Triangle Deneb Vega
Atair, both the vulva of the fertility giver BRI GID and
the head of the bull or bull man, supreme leader, born
again in the sky by the goddess (Venus and bull drawn
on a stalactite in the rear hall of the Chauvet cave, to
be considered together with the inscription in the
Brunel chamber, a domino five with an additional dot
in upper position, reading PAS CA --- may the bull man
or supreme leader, born again in the sky by the goddess,
roam heavens in his next life as he roams the land in
this life ... Michael Janda, concluding from his thorough
studies of the Rig Veda, assumes a Paleolithic abode
somewhere along the Milky Way). - While we explain
life as a 'product' of nature, the ancient ones explained
the cosmos in terms of living beings. An early myth,
I claim, may have explained the world as creation
of a mighty bull: his horns are present in the eastern
mountains where the moon and stars and the sun rise,
and in the western mountains where they set and then
traverse the Underworld in order to rise again, while
his head and body account for the mass of the earth.
Now his sperm, Latin semen, is present in the soma
that makes the soil fertile and created all the plants
and animals and humans, soma and semen coming
from IE *sew- 'what is pressed out' and going back to
Magdalenian SOMm 'body', namely the essence of the
body present ïn the semen or sperm, able to generate
new life and generations. Also, the mysterious soma
inside the earth (my interpretation) can be extracted by
a variety of plants whose juices are combined with milk
and worked into vitalizing drinks called soma, while,
as a god, Soma was a bull and a bird and a lunar deity ...
All comes together once we have the right approach.
[/quote]
The sacred bull Nandi was an old symbol of the earth,
I read on the Web. There are even Nandi Hills, named
for a certain resemblance to the shape of a lying bull.
Reminds me of the western mountain of Thebes, Luxor,
Upper Egypt, house of the heavenly cow Hathor - with
a little phantasy you can see it as a lying cow, the
pyramidal Qoru above Deir-el-Bahari her head and horn.
Yesterday, on my daily health walk through the wood
on top of a hill above Zurich, Nandi on my mind, I tried
to imagine that I walked on the back or neck of a giant
bull, and for a moment I succeeded, perceiving the ground
I walked upon as a wrinkle in the skin of a cosmic bull,
and it made me walk differently, as with reference ...
Empathy paves the way to ancient reasoning. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:09 pm |
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Guest
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[quote]Now for India. Some link Mohenjo-Daro with Mahon
the All Beautiful, byname, epithet and avatar of Krishna,
who, according to another of his many bynames, also
was the son of Nandi, the sacred bull personifying
Shiva's creative powers. Krishna was raised among
cows. He was an avatar of Vishnu whose heavenly
abode I located in the Summer Triangle Deneb Vega
Atair, both the vulva of the fertility giver BRI GID and
the head of the bull or bull man, supreme leader, born
again in the sky by the goddess (Venus and bull drawn
on a stalactite in the rear hall of the Chauvet cave, to
be considered together with the inscription in the
Brunel chamber, a domino five with an additional dot
in upper position, reading PAS CA --- may the bull man
or supreme leader, born again in the sky by the goddess,
roam heavens in his next life as he roams the land in
this life ... Michael Janda, concluding from his thorough
studies of the Rig Veda, assumes a Paleolithic abode
somewhere along the Milky Way). - While we explain
life as a 'product' of nature, the ancient ones explained
the cosmos in terms of living beings. An early myth,
I claim, may have explained the world as creation
of a mighty bull: his horns are present in the eastern
mountains where the moon and stars and the sun rise,
and in the western mountains where they set and then
traverse the Underworld in order to rise again, while
his head and body account for the mass of the earth.
Now his sperm, Latin semen, is present in the soma
that makes the soil fertile and created all the plants
and animals and humans, soma and semen coming
from IE *sew- 'what is pressed out' and going back to
Magdalenian SOMm 'body', namely the essence of the
body present ïn the semen or sperm, able to generate
new life and generations. Also, the mysterious soma
inside the earth (my interpretation) can be extracted by
a variety of plants whose juices are combined with milk
and worked into vitalizing drinks called soma, while,
as a god, Soma was a bull and a bird and a lunar deity ...
All comes together once we have the right approach.
The sacred bull Nandi was an old symbol of the earth,
I read on the Web. There are even Nandi Hills, named
for a certain resemblance to the shape of a lying bull.
Reminds me of the western mountain of Thebes, Luxor,
Upper Egypt, house of the heavenly cow Hathor - with
a little phantasy you can see it as a lying cow, the
pyramidal Qoru above Deir-el-Bahari her head and horn.
Yesterday, on my daily health walk through the wood
on top of a hill above Zurich, Nandi on my mind, I tried
to imagine that I walked on the back or neck of a giant
bull, and for a moment I succeeded, perceiving the ground
I walked upon as a wrinkle in the skin of a cosmic bull,
and it made me walk differently, as with reference ...
Empathy paves the way to ancient reasoning.
[/quote]
Considering the flowing rivers, the Indus Valley is oriented
more or less in the North-South direction, and the Nile Valley
in the South-North direction, so that moon and stars and sun
emerge from the eastern hills and mountains and disappear
into the western ones. In the case of predynastic Egypt, this
was visualized by the star decorated head of a cow or bull,
and by the elegant female figurines from El-Mamaryia:
the horns of the cow or bull, ending in stars, are compared
to the raised arms of the goddess
www.seshat.ch/home/eg1a.gif
www.seshat.ch/home/eg1b.GIF
The lower body of the woman resembles a carrot and
symbolizes the fertile earth (the figurine must have stuck
in the ground, perhaps in a small mound on top of a grave),
her breasts symbolize the nourishment we find on the
surface of the earth, her raised arms the slopes of the
eastern and western hills and mountains, her hands
the stars that rise in the east and set in the west (a hand
has five fingers, an Egyptian star five rays), her bird head
the sky, and her eyes the sun and moon ... This gesture,
I believe, belonged to a rite of creation (and a new creation
in the case of the deceased, promise of a new life in a new
world), preformed by a priestess: hands on the womb,
hands on the breasts, hands together on the head,
closed arms raised above the head, arms opened,
hands opened and fingers spread ... May there have been
a similar rite of creation in India? a male version? involving
the Lotus position of Pashupati, his turning head, and the
raised arm of Brahma? |
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| ... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:16 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 23, 3:09 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]Now for India. Some link Mohenjo-Daro with Mahon
the All Beautiful, byname, epithet and avatar of Krishna,
who, according to another of his many bynames, also
was the son of Nandi, the sacred bull personifying
Shiva's creative powers. Krishna was raised among
cows. He was an avatar of Vishnu whose heavenly
abode I located in the Summer Triangle Deneb Vega
Atair, both the vulva of the fertility giver BRI GID and
the head of the bull or bull man, supreme leader, born
again in the sky by the goddess (Venus and bull drawn
on a stalactite in the rear hall of the Chauvet cave, to
be considered together with the inscription in the
Brunel chamber, a domino five with an additional dot
in upper position, reading PAS CA --- may the bull man
or supreme leader, born again in the sky by the goddess,
roam heavens in his next life as he roams the land in
this life ... Michael Janda, concluding from his thorough
studies of the Rig Veda, assumes a Paleolithic abode
somewhere along the Milky Way). - While we explain
life as a 'product' of nature, the ancient ones explained
the cosmos in terms of living beings. An early myth,
I claim, may have explained the world as creation
of a mighty bull: his horns are present in the eastern
mountains where the moon and stars and the sun rise,
and in the western mountains where they set and then
traverse the Underworld in order to rise again, while
his head and body account for the mass of the earth.
Now his sperm, Latin semen, is present in the soma
that makes the soil fertile and created all the plants
and animals and humans, soma and semen coming
from IE *sew- 'what is pressed out' and going back to
Magdalenian SOMm 'body', namely the essence of the
body present ïn the semen or sperm, able to generate
new life and generations. Also, the mysterious soma
inside the earth (my interpretation) can be extracted by
a variety of plants whose juices are combined with milk
and worked into vitalizing drinks called soma, while,
as a god, Soma was a bull and a bird and a lunar deity ...
All comes together once we have the right approach.
The sacred bull Nandi was an old symbol of the earth,
I read on the Web. There are even Nandi Hills, named
for a certain resemblance to the shape of a lying bull.
Reminds me of the western mountain of Thebes, Luxor,
Upper Egypt, house of the heavenly cow Hathor - with
a little phantasy you can see it as a lying cow, the
pyramidal Qoru above Deir-el-Bahari her head and horn.
Yesterday, on my daily health walk through the wood
on top of a hill above Zurich, Nandi on my mind, I tried
to imagine that I walked on the back or neck of a giant
bull, and for a moment I succeeded, perceiving the ground
I walked upon as a wrinkle in the skin of a cosmic bull,
and it made me walk differently, as with reference ...
Empathy paves the way to ancient reasoning.
Considering the flowing rivers, the Indus Valley is oriented
more or less in the North-South direction, and the Nile Valley
in the South-North direction, so that moon and stars and sun
emerge from the eastern hills and mountains and disappear
into the western ones. In the case of predynastic Egypt, this
was visualized by the star decorated head of a cow or bull,
and by the elegant female figurines from El-Mamaryia:
the horns of the cow or bull, ending in stars, are compared
to the raised arms of the goddesswww.seshat.ch/home/eg1a.gifwww.seshat.ch/home/eg1b.GIF
The lower body of the woman resembles a carrot and
symbolizes the fertile earth (the figurine must have stuck
in the ground, perhaps in a small mound on top of a grave),
her breasts symbolize the nourishment we find on the
surface of the earth, her raised arms the slopes of the
eastern and western hills and mountains, her hands
the stars that rise in the east and set in the west (a hand
has five fingers, an Egyptian star five rays), her bird head
the sky, and her eyes the sun and moon ... This gesture,
I believe, belonged to a rite of creation (and a new creation
in the case of the deceased, promise of a new life in a new
world), preformed by a priestess: hands on the womb,
hands on the breasts, hands together on the head,
closed arms raised above the head, arms opened,
hands opened and fingers spread ... May there have been
a similar rite of creation in India? a male version? involving
the Lotus position of Pashupati, his turning head, and the
raised arm of Brahma?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Well, the rituals of Tantra are supposed to be known only to initiates
- but I am sure there is enough material out in the public domain.
Perhaps you might find a Tantric ritual that matches what you have
conjectured. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:30 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 24, 1:16 am, analys... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
[quote]
Well, the rituals of Tantra are supposed to be known only to initiates
- but I am sure there is enough material out in the public domain.
Perhaps you might find a Tantric ritual that matches what you have
conjectured.
[/quote]
Thank you for this hint. I will follow your advice
in my way, not forcing things but keeping my eyes
open.
Over the weekend I found possible evidence for
an early understanding of the world in terms of
a bull, a divine bull, a cosmic bull. Most hymns
in the Rig Veda are dedicated to Indra, Agni,
and Soma. As a god, Soma was a bull and a bird
and a lunar deity, while soma as a plant, and as
juice pressed out of that plant, or perhaps a variety
of plants, may be the semen of the divine bull whose
body accounts for the mass of the earth while his
horns are present in the eastern mountains, where
the moon rises, and in the western mountains,
where the moon sets in order to traverse the
Underworld and emerge from an eastern mountain
again, and this semen is the essence of the body
SOMm of the cosmic bull, able to generate life
in various forms, extracted from the ground by
a variety of plants, which, pressed out, provide
a juice, that, mixed with milk, serve as a vitalizing
drink ... Now for Agni, the god of fire and light.
In his name I recognize GNE for the nine days of
the Magdalenian full moon. The permutations of
the three letters yield the names for the Magdalenian
lunar phases defined by ideograms acompanying
the magnificient white bulls in the rotunda of Lascaux.
For example GEN denotes the three days of the young
moon, and inverse NEG the three days of the dying
moon. So Agni could originally have been the word
for the full moon, a bright fire in the black sky in olden
times when there was no light pollution dimming
the lunar disc. What about Indra? I would associate it
with Mycenaean atoroqo (Linear B) that I read as
AD TOR OC CO, toward AD bull in motion TOR
with open eyes OC and a focused mind CO, whence
Greek anthropos, and, I believe, also the genitive
and accusative af anaer 'man', namely andros andra,
denoting the man or generally human being confronting
fate. Consider the origin of Homer's Odyssey: Andra
moi ennepe, Mousa, polytropon, hos mala polla /
plagchthae ... |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:31 pm |
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Guest
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Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
[quote]On Oct 11, 11:22 pm, "Peter T. Daniels"<gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net
wrote:
No -- I taught (or, as he would say, "learned") him a long time
ago that he means "intensive," not "comparative," but he continues
to use the misleading term. He's simply uneducable.
Yes, I am unlearnable,
[/quote]
You really are unlearnable, in that no one can be taught to reproduce
your method (since it isn't one). I ask again, since analys likes you so
much, why can't you teach him (?), so that the two of you can solve the
same problem independently and arrive at coherent answers? |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:04 pm |
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On Oct 26, 8:31 pm, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]
You really are unlearnable, in that no one can be taught to reproduce
your method (since it isn't one). I ask again, since analys likes you so
much, why can't you teach him (?), so that the two of you can solve the
same problem independently and arrive at coherent answers?
[/quote]
So far nobody studied my method, although it is
rather simple: I mined words using my four laws,
and now I use the words I mined in interpreting
words of recent languages. Everybody can look up
my permutation groups, I developed them here,
mainly in 2006, and published them on my website.
Analyst ain't obliged to study and use my method,
but his contributions are precious to me as he tells
me how a variety of Sanskrit words fit my approach.
I based my work mainly on the languages I learned,
Latin (ten lessons per week for six years, plus all
the homework), ancient Greek, French, Italian,
English, some Spanish (allows me to also read
Catalan and Portuguese), and then of course my
mother language Swiss that keeps many very old
words like for example Mocke for something big
and round - the late opera singer Luciano Pavarotti
was a classical Mocke, but you can use the word
also as pet name for a toddler, miin chliine süesse
Mocke 'my little sweet round and chubby thing',
the candy we bought as children at the kiosk of
the bath in the lake were called Föifermocke
because they were round and big for a candy and
costed only five cents, Mocke is also used for some
animals, etc. -, and guided me in my reconstruction
of MUC for bull (in a discussion I had with Douglas
G. Kilday). I did the permutations, mainly using Greek,
for ancient Greek has a relatively small vocabulary,
now others can look whether the words I mined using
my four laws are useful also in the etymology of other
languages I did not consider, for example Sanskrit.
When my reconstructions prove to be helpful in better
explaining the Rig Veda, my approach has stood a test.
Nobody must work out again my permutation groups,
that labor is done, now the task is to use the words
for etymological purposes. I am very proud of my
explanation of Indra in my message from yesterday,
one more evidence for the common origin of Greek
and Sanskrit in Eurasia of the Ice Age, an ancient
formula for the very conditio humana, no less. |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:03 am |
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Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
[quote]On Oct 26, 8:31 pm, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
You really are unlearnable, in that no one can be taught to reproduce
your method (since it isn't one). I ask again, since analys likes you so
much, why can't you teach him (?), so that the two of you can solve the
same problem independently and arrive at coherent answers?
So far nobody studied my method, although it is
rather simple: I mined words using my four laws,
[/quote]
.... which you made up. That isn't a *method*.
[quote]and now I use the words I mined in interpreting
words of recent languages.
[/quote]
.... every case of which involves you making things up, which isn't a
*method*. In addition to not understanding the meaning of "science" and
"evidence", you don't understand the meaning of "method". |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:02 am |
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Guest
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Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
[quote]On Oct 26, 8:31 pm, António Marques<m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
You really are unlearnable, in that no one can be taught to
reproduce your method (since it isn't one). I ask again, since
analys likes you so much, why can't you teach him (?), so that the
two of you can solve the same problem independently and arrive at
coherent answers?
So far nobody studied my method, although it is rather simple: I
mined words using my four laws, and now I use the words I mined in
interpreting words of recent languages. Everybody can look up my
permutation groups, I developed them here, mainly in 2006, and
published them on my website. Analyst ain't obliged to study and use
my method (...)
[/quote]
Look, I'm saying you have no method <=> no one can reproduce your
results. Take it as a hypothesis to be discredit. Prove it wrong. Find
someone willing to learn it (I suggested analys just to call his (?)
bluff), take the time you will, and then come back and show thw world
that the two of you can independently arrive at similar enough results
from the same data. That's a test that *any* method can pass. Don't make
excuses. Maybe when you realise no one can learn it then you'll see
what's wrong with it. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:01 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 27, 1:02 pm, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]
Look, I'm saying you have no method <=> no one can reproduce your
results. Take it as a hypothesis to be discredit. Prove it wrong. Find
someone willing to learn it (I suggested analys just to call his (?)
bluff), take the time you will, and then come back and show thw world
that the two of you can independently arrive at similar enough results
from the same data. That's a test that *any* method can pass. Don't make
excuses. Maybe when you realise no one can learn it then you'll see
what's wrong with it.
[/quote]
Magdalenian is not a language you can learn,
I am only making a begin, it was a direct language,
spoken from face to face, embedded in gestures.
Analyst very recently posted a link to a fine and funny
little video where a monkey on a chain begs a little
girl that passes by to scratch its head, she obliges,
then stops, the monkey takes her hand, scratches
its head, and she obliges for another while, then
stops, and the same again. You can say a lot with
mere gestures! And then by adding humming.
You have to try out all this. And then you can
punctuate your gestures and facial expressions
with an occasional word, then you can give a
related meaning to the inverse form, and further
meanings around the same meme to the remaining
permutations. If someone wishes to repeat my
method he or she may take the letters P A D and
and apply my four laws of Magdalenian and look
what he or she finds, and then compare it with my
permutation groups of six and six words, the latter
being the comparative forms (instead of D an S),
all in all a dozen words, and judge whether my or
his or her result is better and more convincing.
I say again that the bulk of the work is done.
Maybe someone will find a few more permutation
groups I missed, for example I failed in the case
of M - Vowel - R and would welcome if someone
else succeeded with those letters. Let me make
a comparison. Once the calculus was discovered
by Newton and Leibniz people didn't have to invent
it again, over and over again, they could just check
the new methods proposed by Newton and Leibniz
and then make use of them. Now somebody may
check my permutation groups and then use the
words I mined. Analyst used some of my words
and showed me that they also apply in Sanskrit,
which is a real help for me. Especially he showed
that I don't need to make the complicated explanation
of Old English fell German Fell French file 'thread'
and English wool via PIS as a lateral association
to PAS but can derive them directly from BIR,
also Latin vir 'man', hence the one clad in fur, and
he showed me that MUC for bull could also have
derivatives in Sanskrit. This is the way may work
must proceed: proving helpful in matters of
etymology, also in languages I did not use for
mining my words. And much to my pleasure it
proves helpful in a way I could hardly have hoped
for, Indra for once, an ancient formula for the
conditio humana, as the first word of Homer's
Odyssey: Andra ... |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 pm |
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Guest
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[quote]Magdalenian is not a language you can learn,
I am only making a begin, it was a direct language,
spoken from face to face, embedded in gestures.
Analyst very recently posted a link to a fine and funny
little video where a monkey on a chain begs a little
girl that passes by to scratch its head, she obliges,
then stops, the monkey takes her hand, scratches
its head, and she obliges for another while, then
stops, and the same again. You can say a lot with
mere gestures! And then by adding humming.
You have to try out all this. And then you can
punctuate your gestures and facial expressions
with an occasional word, then you can give a
related meaning to the inverse form, and further
meanings around the same meme to the remaining
permutations. If someone wishes to repeat my
method he or she may take the letters P A D and
and apply my four laws of Magdalenian and look
what he or she finds, and then compare it with my
permutation groups of six and six words, the latter
being the comparative forms (instead of D an S),
all in all a dozen words, and judge whether my or
his or her result is better and more convincing.
I say again that the bulk of the work is done.
Maybe someone will find a few more permutation
groups I missed, for example I failed in the case
of M - Vowel - R and would welcome if someone
else succeeded with those letters. Let me make
a comparison. Once the calculus was discovered
by Newton and Leibniz people didn't have to invent
it again, over and over again, they could just check
the new methods proposed by Newton and Leibniz
and then make use of them. Now somebody may
check my permutation groups and then use the
words I mined. Analyst used some of my words
and showed me that they also apply in Sanskrit,
which is a real help for me. Especially he showed
that I don't need to make the complicated explanation
of Old English fell German Fell French file 'thread'
and English wool via PIS as a lateral association
to PAS but can derive them directly from BIR,
also Latin vir 'man', hence the one clad in fur, and
he showed me that MUC for bull could also have
derivatives in Sanskrit. This is the way may work
must proceed: proving helpful in matters of
etymology, also in languages I did not use for
mining my words. And much to my pleasure it
proves helpful in a way I could hardly have hoped
for, Indra for once, an ancient formula for the
conditio humana, as the first word of Homer's
Odyssey: Andra ...
[/quote]
One epithet of Indra was that of a bull, consider for example
this quote from the RigVeda, Book 3, Hymn XXX in the
translation by Griffith: "Fair cheeks has Indra, Maghavan,
the Victor, Lord of a great host, Stormer, strong in action.
What once thou didst in might when mortals vexed thee,
where now, O Bull, are those thy hero exploits?" Having only
this quote I don't understand the context but see enough to
sketch a provisional history of Indra.
The Ice Age hunters of Eurasia must have been embedded
in a shamanistic system of beliefs that made them maintain
the cosmic order in that the life of an animal that was killed
in order to secure the survival of the people returned to the
cosmic animal, the life of a hunted bison to the moon bull,
and the life of a hunted horse to the sun horse, and this
must have been the reason why lances are sticking to the
moon bulls and the sun horse in the rotunda of Lascaux.
Confronting a running bull required experience and knowledge
and an intuitive understanding of a bull and a lot of courage,
so that this act became a formula for the conditio humana,
AD TOR OC CO, toward AD the bull in motion TOR with open
eyes OC and a focused mind CO, wherefrom Mycenaean
atoroqo, Greek anthropos andros andra, and Vedic Indra,
while MUC for bull is present in Myc-enae, probably the
stronghold of the Zeus bull, and Vedic Maghavan 'the Victor'.
One drawing in the cave Le Gabillou, Dordogne, shows a man
wearing the horns and hide of a bull, under the attack of lances.
I interpret it as the master bull hunter teaching boys how to
hunt a bull and carry out the all deciding first blow. In order
to teach the boys (not present in the drawing) he behaves
as a bull, showing the boys have a real bull would react in
this or that situation. So the bull hunter becomes the bull
himself. The master bull hunter who can take it up with every
bull becomes the bull man in the above shamanistic belief,
and is shown awaiting his apotheosis on a stalactite in the
rear hall of the Chauvet cave, over 30,000 years old: he will
be born again by the goddess - visible her legs and big vulva -
in the sky, presumably in the region of the Summer Triangle
Deneb Vega Atair. The bull hunter becomes the bull himself
and then the divine bull, the cosmic bull ...
This transition would also have occurred in the case of Indra.
He was the prototype of the Ice Age bull hunter, but then he
became the bull, the divine bull, the cosmic bull, and the
helper of the cosmic bull at the same time. His fair cheeks
refer to the white arcs of the moon. He drank soma, which
made him strong in action, and then, as the cosmic bull,
he made the earth fecund with his seed, the soma which
is the rain, and thus he became the rain god, in combination
with the thundering hooves of a bull the thunder god, and at
the same time his own helper who made the blocked rivers
flow ... Indra is entangled in a complicated mythological web
that nevertheless offers a glimpse of his origin, the bull hunter
of Ice Age Eurasia embedded in a shamanistic system of
beliefs that made him maintain the cosmic order and allowed
his apotheosis from the bull hunter to the cosmic bull himself. |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:49 pm |
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On Oct 30, 4:30 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]Magdalenian is not a language you can learn,
I am only making a begin, it was a direct language,
spoken from face to face, embedded in gestures.
Analyst very recently posted a link to a fine and funny
little video where a monkey on a chain begs a little
girl that passes by to scratch its head, she obliges,
then stops, the monkey takes her hand, scratches
its head, and she obliges for another while, then
stops, and the same again. You can say a lot with
mere gestures! And then by adding humming.
You have to try out all this. And then you can
punctuate your gestures and facial expressions
with an occasional word, then you can give a
related meaning to the inverse form, and further
meanings around the same meme to the remaining
permutations. If someone wishes to repeat my
method he or she may take the letters P A D and
and apply my four laws of Magdalenian and look
what he or she finds, and then compare it with my
permutation groups of six and six words, the latter
being the comparative forms (instead of D an S),
all in all a dozen words, and judge whether my or
his or her result is better and more convincing.
I say again that the bulk of the work is done.
Maybe someone will find a few more permutation
groups I missed, for example I failed in the case
of M - Vowel - R and would welcome if someone
else succeeded with those letters. Let me make
a comparison. Once the calculus was discovered
by Newton and Leibniz people didn't have to invent
it again, over and over again, they could just check
the new methods proposed by Newton and Leibniz
and then make use of them. Now somebody may
check my permutation groups and then use the
words I mined. Analyst used some of my words
and showed me that they also apply in Sanskrit,
which is a real help for me. Especially he showed
that I don't need to make the complicated explanation
of Old English fell German Fell French file 'thread'
and English wool via PIS as a lateral association
to PAS but can derive them directly from BIR,
also Latin vir 'man', hence the one clad in fur, and
he showed me that MUC for bull could also have
derivatives in Sanskrit. This is the way may work
must proceed: proving helpful in matters of
etymology, also in languages I did not use for
mining my words. And much to my pleasure it
proves helpful in a way I could hardly have hoped
for, Indra for once, an ancient formula for the
conditio humana, as the first word of Homer's
Odyssey: Andra ...
One epithet of Indra was that of a bull, consider for example
this quote from the RigVeda, Book 3, Hymn XXX in the
translation by Griffith: "Fair cheeks has Indra, Maghavan,
the Victor, Lord of a great host, Stormer, strong in action.
What once thou didst in might when mortals vexed thee,
where now, O Bull, are those thy hero exploits?" Having only
this quote I don't understand the context but see enough to
sketch a provisional history of Indra.
The Ice Age hunters of Eurasia must have been embedded
in a shamanistic system of beliefs that made them maintain
the cosmic order in that the life of an animal that was killed
in order to secure the survival of the people returned to the
cosmic animal, the life of a hunted bison to the moon bull,
and the life of a hunted horse to the sun horse, and this
must have been the reason why lances are sticking to the
moon bulls and the sun horse in the rotunda of Lascaux.
Confronting a running bull required experience and knowledge
and an intuitive understanding of a bull and a lot of courage,
so that this act became a formula for the conditio humana,
AD TOR OC CO, toward AD the bull in motion TOR with open
eyes OC and a focused mind CO, wherefrom Mycenaean
atoroqo, Greek anthropos andros andra, and Vedic Indra,
while MUC for bull is present in Myc-enae, probably the
stronghold of the Zeus bull, and Vedic Maghavan 'the Victor'.
One drawing in the cave Le Gabillou, Dordogne, shows a man
wearing the horns and hide of a bull, under the attack of lances.
I interpret it as the master bull hunter teaching boys how to
hunt a bull and carry out the all deciding first blow. In order
to teach the boys (not present in the drawing) he behaves
as a bull, showing the boys have a real bull would react in
this or that situation. So the bull hunter becomes the bull
himself. The master bull hunter who can take it up with every
bull becomes the bull man in the above shamanistic belief,
and is shown awaiting his apotheosis on a stalactite in the
rear hall of the Chauvet cave, over 30,000 years old: he will
be born again by the goddess - visible her legs and big vulva -
in the sky, presumably in the region of the Summer Triangle
Deneb Vega Atair. The bull hunter becomes the bull himself
and then the divine bull, the cosmic bull ...
This transition would also have occurred in the case of Indra.
He was the prototype of the Ice Age bull hunter, but then he
became the bull, the divine bull, the cosmic bull, and the
helper of the cosmic bull at the same time. His fair cheeks
refer to the white arcs of the moon. He drank soma, which
made him strong in action, and then, as the cosmic bull,
he made the earth fecund with his seed, the soma which
is the rain, and thus he became the rain god, in combination
with the thundering hooves of a bull the thunder god, and at
the same time his own helper who made the blocked rivers
flow ... Indra is entangled in a complicated mythological web
that nevertheless offers a glimpse of his origin, the bull hunter
of Ice Age Eurasia embedded in a shamanistic system of
beliefs that made him maintain the cosmic order and allowed
his apotheosis from the bull hunter to the cosmic bull himself.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
By the time of the Vedas, cattle had been domesticated. AFAIK, the
Indus valley seals also show bulls as domesticated animals.
MaghavAn is from magha (wealth and related meanings) and vAn
(posesssor) .
Now you should mine MUC = Bull = wealth, prosperity, plenitude etc.
the IE pecu = cattle apparently underlies pecuniary, impecunious etc. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:08 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 10:49 am, analys... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
[quote]
By the time of the Vedas, cattle had been domesticated. AFAIK, the
Indus valley seals also show bulls as domesticated animals.
MaghavAn is from magha (wealth and related meanings) and vAn
(posesssor) .
Now you should mine MUC = Bull = wealth, prosperity, plenitude etc.
[/quote]
Of course a bull meant wealth, whether one successfully
hunted a bull in the Ice Age, bringing home plenty of meat,
a big hide, sinews for sewing, bones and horns for
making tools and art works and pretty things to adorn
yourself or your loved one, or then in the Neolithic when
the possession of a herd meant wealth.
[quote]the IE pecu = cattle apparently underlies pecuniary, impecunious etc.
[/quote]
I reconstructed PAC for horse and PEC for game,
the latter present in ibex, I claim, but also used for
cattle, wherefrom pecunia 'money', a silver or a copper
ingot having had the value of a cow, while PAC would also
have been used for catttle, not only for horses, considering
Italian vacca 'cow'. - I speak of Roman ingots. Some
copper ingots from Crete actually have the shape of cow
hides. Then there is the mythical Golden Fleece, perhaps
indicating gold ingots in the shape of a vleece, a sheep
hide that is.
Thank you for the many hints, I find them very helpful,
especially your suggestion that I go for the Ice Age
myth of the bull hunter. This evening I shall consult the
Odyssey again, for it begins with the word Andra
which I derive from AD TOR OC CO, as Indra. Are
there connections between Odysseus and the bull,
beyond his sturdy posture? |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:51 pm |
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Guest
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[quote]Thank you for the many hints, I find them very helpful,
especially your suggestion that I go for the Ice Age
myth of the bull hunter. This evening I shall consult the
Odyssey again, for it begins with the word Andra
which I derive from AD TOR OC CO, as Indra. Are
there connections between Odysseus and the bull,
beyond his sturdy posture?
[/quote]
Homer's Odyssey begins with the word Andra in which
I see an ancient formula for the conditio humana,
AD TOR OC CO, toward AD the bull in motion TOR
with open eyes OC and a focused mind CO, man
meeting his fate, Mycenaean atoroqo, Greek anthropos,
also andros andra. Odysseus is meeting his fate in
Homer's epic. But does this fate have anything to do
with a bull? Not directly, Odysseus is fighting with his
arch enemy Poseidon, builder and defendor of Troy.
He is mentioned as early as in line 25 of book 1. And
what is said about him? He stays in Ethiopa, where
people sacrifice hekatombs of bulls and rams to
Poseidon. Bulls occur eight times in the epic, seven
times of which as sacrifices to Poseidon, and always
many bulls, hekatombs. Hundreds of bulls are offered
to this powerful god. So Odysseus, in order to cope
with mighty Poseidon, has not only to confront one
single bull, he has to overcome hundreds of bulls,
so that he can offer them to his arch enemy and hope
to get around him --- which goes to say that leading
a war is hundred times harder than just meeting a bull.
Only once a bull is mentioned in a peaceful setting:
when Penelope opens the chest where the bow of her
husband Odysseus is kept, the wooden doors give way
with the groan of a bull grazing on the meadow - not so
very peaceful after all, as if the bull could sense that the
bow is being fetched, a bow that could cost his life.
I found no other mention of bulls, the symbolism,
underlying but apparently well beknown to the early
audience, is consistent throughout the epic: waging war
is hundred times a bigger challenge than bull hunting,
the deeds of Odysseus are way above any challenge
met by a hero in early songs by long forgotten bards. |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:26 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 3:51 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]Thank you for the many hints, I find them very helpful,
especially your suggestion that I go for the Ice Age
myth of the bull hunter. This evening I shall consult the
Odyssey again, for it begins with the word Andra
which I derive from AD TOR OC CO, as Indra. Are
there connections between Odysseus and the bull,
beyond his sturdy posture?
Homer's Odyssey begins with the word Andra in which
I see an ancient formula for the conditio humana,
AD TOR OC CO, toward AD the bull in motion TOR
with open eyes OC and a focused mind CO, man
meeting his fate, Mycenaean atoroqo, Greek anthropos,
also andros andra. Odysseus is meeting his fate in
Homer's epic. But does this fate have anything to do
with a bull? Not directly, Odysseus is fighting with his
arch enemy Poseidon, builder and defendor of Troy.
He is mentioned as early as in line 25 of book 1. And
what is said about him? He stays in Ethiopa, where
people sacrifice hekatombs of bulls and rams to
Poseidon. Bulls occur eight times in the epic, seven
times of which as sacrifices to Poseidon, and always
many bulls, hekatombs. Hundreds of bulls are offered
to this powerful god. So Odysseus, in order to cope
with mighty Poseidon, has not only to confront one
single bull, he has to overcome hundreds of bulls,
so that he can offer them to his arch enemy and hope
to get around him --- which goes to say that leading
a war is hundred times harder than just meeting a bull.
Only once a bull is mentioned in a peaceful setting:
when Penelope opens the chest where the bow of her
husband Odysseus is kept, the wooden doors give way
with the groan of a bull grazing on the meadow - not so
very peaceful after all, as if the bull could sense that the
bow is being fetched, a bow that could cost his life.
I found no other mention of bulls, the symbolism,
underlying but apparently well beknown to the early
audience, is consistent throughout the epic: waging war
is hundred times a bigger challenge than bull hunting,
the deeds of Odysseus are way above any challenge
met by a hero in early songs by long forgotten bards.
[/quote]
The Indians solved the problem by having multiple origin myths. One
story has creation arising from a cosmic egg, another by the sacrifice
of a primordial man (similar to the earlier Titans giving way to the
Olympian Gods in Greek mythology) and ther are probably others.
The linguistic part of your work in my judgement has clearly passed
the test of plausibility. Unifying the earliest myths, rituals and
spiritual practices of Eurasia, possibly into a few archetypal themes
is the work that awaits you.
You might want to use the analogy of dreams - you might have a mundane
experience involving a friend - and that night you have a dream
concerning that friend in a highly enriched setting with fantastic
events. The physical reality was the cycles of the Sun, Moon, stars,
birth, death, weather phenomena fearsome animals etc. - and the
language instinct must have woven the earliest myths from the real
world. |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:27 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 2:26 pm, analys... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
[quote]
The Indians solved the problem by having multiple origin myths. One
story has creation arising from a cosmic egg, another by the sacrifice
of a primordial man (similar to the earlier Titans giving way to the
Olympian Gods in Greek mythology) and ther are probably others.
The linguistic part of your work in my judgement has clearly passed
the test of plausibility. Unifying the earliest myths, rituals and
spiritual practices of Eurasia, possibly into a few archetypal themes
is the work that awaits you.
You might want to use the analogy of dreams - you might have a mundane
experience involving a friend - and that night you have a dream
concerning that friend in a highly enriched setting with fantastic
events. The physical reality was the cycles of the Sun, Moon, stars,
birth, death, weather phenomena fearsome animals etc. - and the
language instinct must have woven the earliest myths from the real
world.
[/quote]
You describe it very well. And you can also imagine
them sitting around a fire by night, the flames going
down, only embers glowing, the stars shining brightly
overhead, and then the phantasy works and makes
out patterns among the stars and perceives all kinds
of constellations, a man here, a bear over there,
a story begins to unveal - the first cinema in the world,
and for free. Consider that we say movie _star_ ... |
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