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| Science Forum Index » Energy - Hydrogen Forum » 60-Watt Crystalline Solar Panel - Sunforce 37015... |
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| jolly... |
 Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:20 am |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:48 am |
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On Sep 6, 3:20 am, jolly <freedatingsi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:08517e712d]60-Watt Crystalline Solar Panel - Sunforce 37015http://www.solarenergyvillage.co.cc/2009/09/60-watt-crystalline-solar...
[/quote:08517e712d]
Note that there is no actual photograph of the product, nor the price,
on the links that you posted. This, in addition to it incredible
claimed output, makes it appear to be simply the figment of someone's
imagination.
Note that similar products, with far lower outputs, have been sold
your the past 10 years.
Harry C. |
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| George Cornelius... |
| Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:00 am |
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hhc314 wrote:
[quote:e62515c49e]On Sep 6, 3:20 am, jolly <freedatingsi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
60-Watt Crystalline Solar Panel - Sunforce 37015
http://www.solarenergyvillage.co.cc/2009/09/60-watt-crystalline-solar...
Note that there is no actual photograph of the product, nor the price,
on the links that you posted. This, in addition to it incredible
claimed output, makes it appear to be simply the figment of someone's
imagination.
[/quote:e62515c49e]
Available on Amazon at $7/watt (list = $9/watt).
I'm not sure if it could be called incredible output if you don't know the
size of the panel. Let's say the size is 0.5 m^2 . Then if you assume
500 W ambient flux at 1 sol, 60 W output would be 12% efficiency.
They claim monocrystalline silicon and therefore high efficiency.
[quote:e62515c49e]Note that similar products, with far lower outputs, have been sold
your the past 10 years.
[/quote:e62515c49e]
Irrelevant, of course.
George Cornelius
> Harry C. |
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| Don Lancaster... |
| Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:56 am |
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George Cornelius wrote:
[quote:4bdf1770dd]hhc314 wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:20 am, jolly <freedatingsi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
60-Watt Crystalline Solar Panel - Sunforce 37015
http://www.solarenergyvillage.co.cc/2009/09/60-watt-crystalline-solar...
Note that there is no actual photograph of the product, nor the price,
on the links that you posted. This, in addition to it incredible
claimed output, makes it appear to be simply the figment of someone's
imagination.
Available on Amazon at $7/watt (list = $9/watt).
I'm not sure if it could be called incredible output if you don't know the
size of the panel. Let's say the size is 0.5 m^2 . Then if you assume
500 W ambient flux at 1 sol, 60 W output would be 12% efficiency.
They claim monocrystalline silicon and therefore high efficiency.
Note that similar products, with far lower outputs, have been sold
your the past 10 years.
Irrelevant, of course.
George Cornelius
Harry C.
[/quote:4bdf1770dd]
The only tiny problem is that 25 cents per peak watt is required for net
energy. Even then, it will take many years to pay for the previous scams
and stupidities.
The system is thus a gasoline destroying net energy sink.
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.pdf
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don at (no spam) tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com |
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| George Cornelius... |
| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:24 am |
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Don Lancaster wrote:
[quote:871fcd90c6]George Cornelius wrote:
Available on Amazon at $7/watt (list = $9/watt).
I'm not sure if it could be called incredible output if you don't know
the size of the panel. Let's say the size is 0.5 m^2 . Then if you
assume 500 W ambient flux at 1 sol, 60 W output would be 12% efficiency.
The only tiny problem is that 25 cents per peak watt is required for net
energy. Even then, it will take many years to pay for the previous scams
and stupidities.
[/quote:871fcd90c6]
The point was that $7/watt is not out of line with pricing of
similar products. According to
http://reliablewindpower.com/index.php?k=B000FIZY3U&c=blended
it is a 19 x 42 inch panel and therefore 0.51 m^2, so my estimate
of 0.5 was quite accurate (purely by accident).
[quote:871fcd90c6]The system is thus a gasoline destroying net energy sink.
[/quote:871fcd90c6]
I have never seen anyone here duplicate your reasoning. If the
net present value of all the energy produced by this item over its
useful life is $0.25 per watt of capacity, then $6.75 per watt can
be thought of as being dumped down a rathole. But since it was not
energy but dollars, it's hard to argue except in the most abstract of
terms that $6.75 worth of gasoline was spilled somewhere and set
ablaze.
I would be willing to accept your argument in this form: 95% of all
the energy used to manufacture, deliver, and install this product
could be considered to have been irretrievably lost, assuming the
$0.25 estimate turns out to be reasonably accurate.
And the argument does not hold at all if the primary use of the item
is off-grid.
[quote:871fcd90c6]http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.pdf
[/quote:871fcd90c6]
George Cornelius |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:59 am |
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On Sep 10, 12:24 am, George Cornelius <STXgcornelius... at (no spam) charter.net>
wrote:
[quote:3c5efc8a81]Don Lancaster wrote:
George Cornelius wrote:
Available on Amazon at $7/watt (list = $9/watt).
I'm not sure if it could be called incredible output if you don't know
the size of the panel. Let's say the size is 0.5 m^2 . Then if you
assume 500 W ambient flux at 1 sol, 60 W output would be 12% efficiency.
The only tiny problem is that 25 cents per peak watt is required for net
energy. Even then, it will take many years to pay for the previous scams
and stupidities.
The point was that $7/watt is not out of line with pricing of
similar products. According to
http://reliablewindpower.com/index.php?k=B000FIZY3U&c=blended
it is a 19 x 42 inch panel and therefore 0.51 m^2, so my estimate
of 0.5 was quite accurate (purely by accident).
The system is thus a gasoline destroying net energy sink.
I have never seen anyone here duplicate your reasoning. If the
net present value of all the energy produced by this item over its
useful life is $0.25 per watt of capacity, then $6.75 per watt can
be thought of as being dumped down a rathole. But since it was not
energy but dollars, it's hard to argue except in the most abstract of
terms that $6.75 worth of gasoline was spilled somewhere and set
ablaze.
I would be willing to accept your argument in this form: 95% of all
the energy used to manufacture, deliver, and install this product
could be considered to have been irretrievably lost, assuming the
$0.25 estimate turns out to be reasonably accurate.
And the argument does not hold at all if the primary use of the item
is off-grid.
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.pdf
George Cornelius
[/quote:3c5efc8a81]
George, what specific 'real' product are you speaking about? The
original post in this thread was about a fictional device. On what
marketed product do you base your figures?
My off-grid application is a 26' cruising sailboat, and all that I
want is a solar device that can recharge the batteries during the day,
so the battery can power the navigation lights, cabin lights,
electronics, and auto-tiller, so that I don't have to run the engine
to generate electricity.
I already own a solar array (roughly 1 square meter in area) that cost
me $400 and barely produces sufficient power to trickle charge the
battery, bringing it up to 10% capacity on a sunny day. Then I have
to start the engine to charge the battery to full capacity each
evening.
Fact is, nobody sells the device that you describe. If it exists,
please tell me the brand name and model number so I can avail myself
of one of the miraculous devices. Again, they cost how much, and what
is their service life? Will I get a guarantee on that?
No, I didn't think so.
Harry C. |
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| George Cornelius... |
| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:26 pm |
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hhc314 trolled:
[quote:a1ffcf0ef4]George, what specific 'real' product are you speaking about? The
original post in this thread was about a fictional device. On what
marketed product do you base your figures?
[/quote:a1ffcf0ef4]
You're kidding, right?
Northern Tool and Equipment has it in their latest catalog (#1001).
The Sunforce 60W panel with 7 Amp charge controller is listed on page
30: item 339619-1001, price $500.
Why do I look like I'm shilling for these folks?
[quote:a1ffcf0ef4]My off-grid application is a 26' cruising sailboat, and all that I
want is a solar device that can recharge the batteries during the day,
so the battery can power the navigation lights, cabin lights,
electronics, and auto-tiller, so that I don't have to run the engine
to generate electricity.
I already own a solar array (roughly 1 square meter in area) that cost
me $400 and barely produces sufficient power to trickle charge the
battery, bringing it up to 10% capacity on a sunny day. Then I have
to start the engine to charge the battery to full capacity each
evening.
[/quote:a1ffcf0ef4]
I have no idea what your needs are. A 60W panel without solar
tracking can generate what? 0.24 kwh per solar day? An 80 AH
automobile battery stores 12V x 80 Amp Hours, or about 1kwh. You
may need as many as four 60W panels to fully charge a single such
battery in one day, more if your electronics is drawing a lot of
power at the same time.
And I suspect you'll want a charge controller.
Note that I estimated the efficiency of these panels at 12%. Many
PV devices have been sold in the past with efficiencies of 3% and
lower. Perhaps that is what you have if you have a panel twice the
size with significantly less output.
[quote:a1ffcf0ef4]Fact is, nobody sells the device that you describe. If it exists,
please tell me the brand name and model number so I can avail myself
of one of the miraculous devices. Again, they cost how much, and what
is their service life? Will I get a guarantee on that?
[/quote:a1ffcf0ef4]
Call up the retailers.
You want to be green, you pay for the luxury. You want cheap power,
use your generator - and use propane for cooking, fluorescents and
LED's for lighting.
George Cornelius
[quote:a1ffcf0ef4]No, I didn't think so.
Harry C.[/quote:a1ffcf0ef4] |
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| Don Lancaster... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:06 am |
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George Cornelius wrote:
[quote:7888450240]But since it was not energy but dollars......
[/quote:7888450240]
A common "not even wrong" misconception.
Utility buyback agreements contractually obligate AND EQUATE present
energy to current dollars. Typically ten cents per kilowatt hour.
The two are thus fungible and interchangible economic commodities.
Spending dollars can be exactly the same as spending gasoline.
See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/nrglect2.pdf
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don at (no spam) tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com |
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| George Cornelius... |
| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:33 am |
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hhc314 wrote:
[quote:2b1c81e130]Fact is, nobody sells the device that you describe.
[/quote:2b1c81e130]
Harry, I suppose I should apologize for the tone of my prior post.
Since I could easily find places online that were willing to sell
the product by typing "Sunforce 37015" into a search engine, I was
beginning to wonder if you were seeing a different initial post in
the thread than I was seeing, or had gone over to the dark side,
had a financial interest in the product, and wanted us to continue
providing links in order to drum up business.
With regard to estimated daily output, I assumed the equivalent
of four hours of direct insolation was all you would get. On
a sunny day with the panel fully exposed you might actually get
six hours (unlikely if you are under sail during the day), giving
0.36 kwh/panel/day and meaning you could fully charge an 80 AH
battery on such a day with only three panels.
I'm still trying to decide where you would place a solar panel
on, say, a sloop. You can't make a jib with paint-on solar cells
yet - and your point of sail would rarely be aligned for optimal
output anyway. And no matter where you place it on the boat it
is likely be at least partially obscured for much of the time
that you are under sail.
Things are more predictable if you only expect to be charging
when docked or moored, but even then you probably cannot do better
than laying it flat on the deck.
George Cornelius
> Harry C. |
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