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| PaulJK... |
 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:03 am |
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Dušan Vukotić wrote:
[quote:38fc56f747]On Oct 11, 1:30 am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
colloquial
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
Have you forgotten your native tongue: Slvn. prozóren 'transparent',
zrcáljenje, zrcáljenje (zrcaljenje dreves v jezeru 'trees mirrored in
a lake'; 'reflections (as in water)'; Serb. "gleda majmun sebe u
zrcalo", J.J.Zmaj; 'monkey watches himself in a mirror'). Cf. Russ.
зеркало 'mirror', Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to
time, peep'.
[/quote:38fc56f747]
I don't believe Nikolaj has forgotten anything. We were talking
specifically about the word "zrak" meaning "sense of sight".
In this particular case, your Franz-like free associations are of
very little interest.
pjk |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:30 am |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote:f4664b5411]On Oct 11, 10:03 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Oct 11, 1:30 am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
colloquial
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
Have you forgotten your native tongue: Slvn. prozóren 'transparent',
zrcáljenje, zrcáljenje (zrcaljenje dreves v jezeru 'trees mirrored in
a lake'; 'reflections (as in water)'; Serb. "gleda majmun sebe u
zrcalo", J.J.Zmaj; 'monkey watches himself in a mirror'). Cf. Russ.
зеркало 'mirror', Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to
time, peep'.
I don't believe Nikolaj has forgotten anything. We were talking
specifically about the word "zrak" meaning "sense of sight".
In this particular case, your Franz-like free associations are of
very little interest.
pjk
What makes them of less interest in this particular case than usually?
[/quote:f4664b5411]
Uhmmm... geee, dunno, that's a real tough one. 
pjk |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:11 am |
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On Oct 12, 10:30am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
[quote:c9244da66b]What makes them of less interest in this particular case than usually?
Uhmmm... geee, dunno, that's a real tough...
[/quote:c9244da66b]
....and false as your friendly cognate, you cognitive friend ;-)
DV |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:30 pm |
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PaulJK pravi:
[quote:32d316a369]I don't believe Nikolaj has forgotten anything. We were talking
specifically about the word "zrak" meaning "sense of sight".
[/quote:32d316a369]
Yes, exactly. That's why I cleared the whole list of your words, except
for "zrak". |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:52 pm |
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garabik-news-2005-05 at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk pravi:
[quote:c492d91508]Nikolaj <nikolaj.korbar at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
My favourite are Sloveke "otrok" and "hlapec" - the meanings are about
(not quite, but close) reversed in Slovak.
[/quote:c492d91508]
Hehe, brilliant! From the online dictionary:
- "chlapec" - boy, youngster, tad, youth, preteen, man-child, man-boy,
young man, lad, fellow
and
- "otrok" - slave, serf, thrall, captive, vassal, drudge
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only. |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:28 pm |
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On Oct 13, 3:25 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
[quote:2bc1676fe0]Nikolaj wrote:
garabik-news-2005... at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk pravi:
Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
My favourite are Sloveke "otrok" and "hlapec" - the meanings are about
(not quite, but close) reversed in Slovak.
Hehe, brilliant! From the online dictionary:
- "chlapec" - boy, youngster, tad, youth, preteen, man-child, man-boy,
young man, lad, fellow
and
- "otrok" - slave, serf, thrall, captive, vassal, drudge
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only.
AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
a diminutive of "děva".
[/quote:2bc1676fe0]
Russian /xolóp/ 'serf' (also /xlópec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
Ross Clark
[quote:2bc1676fe0]
A question for Nikolaj: If "hlapec" means "serf" in Slovenian,
what would "hlap" mean? I am, of course, only quessing that
"hlapec" is a diminutive form of "hlap" in Slovenian.
pjk[/quote:2bc1676fe0] |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:24 pm |
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On Oct 12, 11:28pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz>
wrote:
[quote:8b61951c3e]Russian /xolp/ 'serf' (also /xlpec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
[/quote:8b61951c3e]
In *Clockwork Orange*, Anthony Burgess turned it into "chelovek," with
a meaning along the lines of Brit. "mate." |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:39 pm |
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On Oct 13, 5:24pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:1652883c2f]On Oct 12, 11:28pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
Russian /xolp/ 'serf' (also /xlpec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
In *Clockwork Orange*, Anthony Burgess turned it into "chelovek," with
a meaning along the lines of Brit. "mate."
[/quote:1652883c2f]
Different word: /Celovek/ 'person'. I dimly remember buying a copy of
"Clockwork Orange", because I was intrigued by the Russian-based
slang, but I didn't like the book and never finished it.
Ross Clark |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:25 pm |
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Nikolaj wrote:
[quote:9f4b9e3236]garabik-news-2005-05 at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk pravi:
Nikolaj <nikolaj.korbar at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
My favourite are Sloveke "otrok" and "hlapec" - the meanings are about
(not quite, but close) reversed in Slovak.
Hehe, brilliant! From the online dictionary:
- "chlapec" - boy, youngster, tad, youth, preteen, man-child, man-boy,
young man, lad, fellow
and
- "otrok" - slave, serf, thrall, captive, vassal, drudge
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only.
[/quote:9f4b9e3236]
AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
a diminutive of "děva".
A question for Nikolaj: If "hlapec" means "serf" in Slovenian,
what would "hlap" mean? I am, of course, only quessing that
"hlapec" is a diminutive form of "hlap" in Slovenian.
pjk |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:30 pm |
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Guest
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PaulJK wrote:
[quote:beb771b98f]Nikolaj wrote:
garabik-news-2005-05 at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk pravi:
Nikolaj <nikolaj.korbar at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
My favourite are Sloveke "otrok" and "hlapec" - the meanings are about
(not quite, but close) reversed in Slovak.
Hehe, brilliant! From the online dictionary:
- "chlapec" - boy, youngster, tad, youth, preteen, man-child, man-boy,
young man, lad, fellow
and
- "otrok" - slave, serf, thrall, captive, vassal, drudge
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only.
AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
a diminutive of "děva".
A question for Nikolaj: If "hlapec" means "serf" in Slovenian,
what would "hlap" mean? I am, of course, only quessing that
"hlapec" is a diminutive form of "hlap" in Slovenian.
pjk
[/quote:beb771b98f]
My translation program says "hlapec"=servant, okay, we
established that, but "hlap"=spiny.
Is that right? it's an adjective spiny?
pjk |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:21 pm |
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benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz wrote:
[quote:9ff159e8fe]On Oct 13, 3:25 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Nikolaj wrote:
garabik-news-2005... at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk pravi:
Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
My favourite are Sloveke "otrok" and "hlapec" - the meanings are about
(not quite, but close) reversed in Slovak.
Hehe, brilliant! From the online dictionary:
- "chlapec" - boy, youngster, tad, youth, preteen, man-child, man-boy,
young man, lad, fellow
and
- "otrok" - slave, serf, thrall, captive, vassal, drudge
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only.
AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
a diminutive of "děva".
Russian /xolóp/ 'serf' (also /xlópec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
Ross Clark
[/quote:9ff159e8fe]
Which reminds me of another reversal in meanings.
Cz "chlap" means (strong/working class) man, while the cognate
Ru "xolop" means serf.
Cz "robota/robotník" means slave labour/slave, while the cognates
Ru "rabota/rabotnik" means work/worker.
pjk
[quote:9ff159e8fe]A question for Nikolaj: If "hlapec" means "serf" in Slovenian,
what would "hlap" mean? I am, of course, only quessing that
"hlapec" is a diminutive form of "hlap" in Slovenian.
pjk[/quote:9ff159e8fe] |
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| ... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:34 pm |
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PaulJK <paul.kriha at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
[quote:9040313c8c]benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz wrote:
On Oct 13, 3:25 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Nikolaj wrote:
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only.
[/quote:9040313c8c]
my Slovene colleagues were explaining that it is not exactly serf,
because serf implies strict feudal ownership system, but more like
lowest ranking worker (working for food and accomodation)
[quote:9040313c8c]
AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
[/quote:9040313c8c]
dievka, correct, though that is slightly out of fashion and everyone
uses dievča
[quote:9040313c8c]a diminutive of "děva".
Russian /xolóp/ 'serf' (also /xlópec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
Ross Clark
Which reminds me of another reversal in meanings.
Cz "chlap" means (strong/working class) man, while the cognate
Ru "xolop" means serf.
Cz "robota/robotník" means slave labour/slave, while the cognates
Ru "rabota/rabotnik" means work/worker.
[/quote:9040313c8c]
you do not need to go to Russian - Slovak 'robotník' = Czech 'dělník'
(but sk robota does mean harder than usual, laborious work; the neutral
word for 'work' is práca)
--
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| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread! |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:21 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 13, 1:39am, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quote:911b0dffa5]On Oct 13, 5:24pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:28pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
Russian /xolp/ 'serf' (also /xlpec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
In *Clockwork Orange*, Anthony Burgess turned it into "chelovek," with
a meaning along the lines of Brit. "mate."
Different word: /Celovek/ 'person'. I dimly remember buying a copy of
[/quote:911b0dffa5]
different etymon?
[quote:911b0dffa5]"Clockwork Orange", because I was intrigued by the Russian-based
slang, but I didn't like the book and never finished it.
[/quote:911b0dffa5]
I was really annoyed when I found that the glossary in the back, which
I had been using to look up the invented words, was not provided by
the author -- who expected the reader to figure the terms out from
context -- but was an editorial addition. (Hadn't had my "Russian for
Linguists" with Howie Aronson, that class where the Stalin monograph
was the chrestomathy.) |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:49 am |
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garabik-news-2005-05 at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
[quote:6fcdc41b5d]PaulJK <paul.kriha at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz wrote:
On Oct 13, 3:25 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Nikolaj wrote:
Fully reversed with very small semantic difference; in Slovene "otrok"
is a child of any gender, and "hlapec" means "serf" only.
my Slovene colleagues were explaining that it is not exactly serf,
because serf implies strict feudal ownership system, but more like
lowest ranking worker (working for food and accomodation)
AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
dievka, correct, though that is slightly out of fashion and everyone
uses dievča
[/quote:6fcdc41b5d]
Right, "děvče" in Cz.
Is there a Sk equivalent of Cz "děvka" (a slut)?
In Czech speech the distinction between "dívka" and "děvka"
is very important. :-)
Was the Cz "děvka" influencing usage of Sk "dievka" resulting
in the recent shift to one of its diminutives?
[quote:6fcdc41b5d]a diminutive of "děva".
Russian /xolóp/ 'serf' (also /xlópec/ 'boy', app. borrowed from
Polish), indicating PSl *xolpu. Vasmer doesn't buy any of the proposed
further etymologies. The semantics reminds me of English words like
"knave" and "churl" (cf. German Knabe, Kerl), which acquired their
derogatory meanings via the lower levels of the feudal social system.
Ross Clark
Which reminds me of another reversal in meanings.
Cz "chlap" means (strong/working class) man, while the cognate
Ru "xolop" means serf.
Cz "robota/robotník" means slave labour/slave, while the cognates
Ru "rabota/rabotnik" means work/worker.
you do not need to go to Russian - Slovak 'robotník' = Czech 'dělník'
(but sk robota does mean harder than usual, laborious work; the neutral
word for 'work' is práca)
Radovan Garabík
[/quote:6fcdc41b5d]
Right, in Czech "robota" is bonded (feudal) labour, hence
the word "robot" invented by Karel Čapek in his sci-fi play
R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots).
pjk |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:11 am |
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Guest
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PaulJK pravi:
[quote:bd1511fd14]AFAIK, meaning of "chlapec" is identical in both Czech and Slovak
and it is a diminutive of "chlap" (a sort of big manly man).
Czech feminine equivalent would be "dívka" (Sk "dievka"?)
a diminutive of "děva".
[/quote:bd1511fd14]
Usual Slovene word for boy and girl are "deček"/"fant" and
"deklica"/"punca". For girl also "deklič" (a masculine noun) or even
"dekle" (a euter noun).
[quote:bd1511fd14]A question for Nikolaj: If "hlapec" means "serf" in Slovenian,
what would "hlap" mean? I am, of course, only quessing that
"hlapec" is a diminutive form of "hlap" in Slovenian.
[/quote:bd1511fd14]
No. Hlapec isn't diminutive. Diminutive would be "hlapčič", little
"hlapec". Feminine "hlapec" is "dekla", and it's diminutive would have
to be "mala dekla" ("deklica" can not be used, it means an ordinary "girl").
"Hlap" it is plural only noun ("hlapi"), means "fume, vapour" as in
"bencinski hlapi" (gas fumes)... |
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