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| Peter T. Daniels... |
 Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:15 am |
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On Sep 4, 6:17 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[quote:99e32dff01]John Atkinson wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Christopher Ingham wrote:
"'faux ami.' Also 'false friend.' A term in language teaching for a
word that has the same origin and general appearance as a word in
another language...." [T. McArthur, in_The Oxford Companion to the
English Language_(1992), s.v. "faux ami"].
That definition includes words that DO have the same meaning, so it
obviously it wasn't written very carefully.
Didn't you see the "...", indicating that the poster has left out the
rest of the sentence?
Yes, but since I assumed his point was to show us the essence of
McArthur's definition, I didn't think he'd have clipped it before the
substance of the definition was complete.
[/quote:99e32dff01]
It's remarkable that no one has bothered to check yet! What follows
the quoted portion is:
", so that learners mistakenly assume that both have the same meanings
and uses: English _deceive_ to trick, French _de'cevoir_ to
disappoint. Such false friends are discussed by .... Compare
CONFUSIBLE, DOUBLET. See QUEBEC ENGLISH."
The entry for CONFUSIBLE is considerably longer, the first example
being luxuriant/luxurious; there's a typology of them by Adrian Room
(1985).
DOUBLETS are pairs/triplets like fragile/frail, cattle/chattel/
capital, which have entered a language from the same source by
different routes.
The QUEBEC ENGLISH subentry claims that such faux amis as deceive,
reunion, and souvenir (for disappoint, meeting, memory) are common.
-
I don't think I have any edition of Crystal's dictionaries of
linguistics, so I can't check that. |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:17 am |
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John Atkinson wrote:
[quote:acf679e78b]Harlan Messinger wrote:
Christopher Ingham wrote:
"'faux ami.' Also 'false friend.' A term in language teaching for a
word that has the same origin and general appearance as a word in
another language...." [T. McArthur, in_The Oxford Companion to the
English Language_(1992), s.v. "faux ami"].
That definition includes words that DO have the same meaning, so it
obviously it wasn't written very carefully.
Didn't you see the "...", indicating that the poster has left out the
rest of the sentence?
[/quote:acf679e78b]
Yes, but since I assumed his point was to show us the essence of
McArthur's definition, I didn't think he'd have clipped it before the
substance of the definition was complete. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:59 am |
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John Atkinson wrote:
[quote:3410f45256]Oliver Cromm wrote:
* Joachim Pense<snob at (no spam) pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
Faux amis differ
in meaning but resemble each other, and typically are cognates. (Like
English town and German Zaun ('fence'))
However, the word is usually used in practical context of language
learning, and hardly any German learner of English would recognize your
example as cognate, so I wouldn't put it in a list of false friends.
I'm not so sure. Surely most language learners would have realised
early on that English<t-> frequently corresponds to German<z->, and
would tend to make use of this correspondence in guessing the meanings
of German words. I know I do when reading German.
[/quote:3410f45256]
But I think that kind of change (t <> z) may trigger the learner's
suspicion that though the words may be related, they meanings may be
different.
[quote:3410f45256]Even something like knight-Knecht is more likely to be confused.
I suspect you're right there.
John.[/quote:3410f45256] |
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| Christian Weisgerber... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:15 am |
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Peter T. Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:acccc882fd]But "Zweig" is German for "branch"!
For branch of a tree. Eng. "branch" is polysemous: is "Zweig"?
[/quote:acccc882fd]
Let's see. I'm using Merriam-Webster's definitions for "branch".
1 : a natural subdivision of a plant stem;
===> Zweig
especially : a secondary shoot or stem (as a bough) arising from a
main axis (as of a tree)
===> Ast
2 : something that extends from or enters into a main body or source:
as a
(1) : a stream that flows into another usually larger stream : tributary
===> Nebenzweig
(2) Southern & Midland : creek 2
===> Bach
b : a side road or way
===> Abzweig, Zweigstraße
c : a slender projection (as the tine of an antler)
===> Zweig (possible)
d : a distinctive part of a mathematical curve
===> Zweig (I think)
e : a part of a computer program executed as a result of a program decision
===> Verzweigung
3 : a part of a complex body: as
a : a division of a family descending from a particular ancestor
===> (Familien)zweig, Ast
b : an area of knowledge that may be considered apart from related
areas <pathology is a branch of medicine>
===> Zweig, Ast
c (1) : a division of an organization
===> Zweig, e.g. Unternehmenszweig (company branch)
(2) : a separate but dependent part of a central organization <the
neighborhood branch of the city library>
===> Zweigstelle
d : a language group less inclusive than a family <the Germanic
branch of the Indo-European language family>
===> Zweig
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:39 am |
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On Sep 4, 8:56 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:1f2bf7e51f]On Sep 4, 1:02 am, Joachim Pense <s... at (no spam) pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):
On Sep 3, 8:57 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc... at (no spam) csuohio.edu> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 13:21:04 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote in
news:4c3a96b2-4e40-4e3d-8cba-eb6d2714ff97 at (no spam) c37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com
in sci.lang:
[...]
Are Zweig / twig (from another thread) "partially
deceptive cognates" because the former has a wider
semantic field than the latter but includes its meaning?
Has German generalized, or has English specialized, an
earlier meaning? Or both?
PGmc. *twig(g)a 'a fork' < PIE *dwi-ko-, an extension of the
'two' root.
Then you've gone back too far, because neither Zweig nor twig has
anything to do with twoness -- though "branch" does!
But "Zweig" is German for "branch"!
For branch of a tree. Eng. "branch" is polysemous: is "Zweig"?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
[/quote:1f2bf7e51f]
Besides the botanical small branch or twig, it can be used to signify
a branch of a family, of science, etc. It also appears as an element
in a some multiword forms, e.g., Zweigstelle (branch office),
Zweigwerk (subsidiary plant).
Christopher Ingham |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:11 am |
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On Sep 4, 12:40 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net>
wrote:
[quote:23ddff35b7]On Sep 4, 9:18 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
I don't know who Kirk-Greene is/are.
Christopher W. E. Kirk-Greene,_French False Friends_(1981). The
offending entries are not accessible in the limited preview:http://books.google.com/books?id=v9k9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...
Rather, the foreword which discusses the terms is not available.[/quote:23ddff35b7] |
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| John Atkinson... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:03 am |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote:d93eb4130c]John Atkinson wrote:
Oliver Cromm wrote:
* Joachim Pense<snob at (no spam) pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
Faux amis differ
in meaning but resemble each other, and typically are cognates. (Like
English town and German Zaun ('fence'))
However, the word is usually used in practical context of language
learning, and hardly any German learner of English would recognize your
example as cognate, so I wouldn't put it in a list of false friends.
I'm not so sure. Surely most language learners would have realised
early on that English <t-> frequently corresponds to German <z->, and
would tend to make use of this correspondence in guessing the meanings
of German words. I know I do when reading German.
But I think that kind of change (t <> z) may trigger the learner's
suspicion that though the words may be related, their meanings may be
different.
[/quote:d93eb4130c]
That may well be so, especially if the student knows enough about the
history of the languages to realise that t > z means that both words
have descended independently from proto-W Germanic -- they're not later
borrowings in one direction or the other -- so that there's been plenty
of time for the meaning to drift in one or both languages.
Still, it's easy to think of common words where this hasn't happened:
to ~ zu; tongue ~ Zunge; ten ~ zehn; tame ~ zahm; tin ~ Zinn; etc etc
But it's almost as easy to think of cases where there's been some drift
(similar to Zweig, though not as much as with Zaun):
tide ~ Zeit; toll ~ Zoll; tally ~ zahlen ...
John. |
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| Brian M. Scott... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:28 pm |
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On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:15:23 +0000 (UTC), Christian
Weisgerber <naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de> wrote in
<news:h7reer$286l$1 at (no spam) lorvorc.mips.inka.de> in sci.lang:
[...]
[quote:f68cc1f92e]d : a distinctive part of a mathematical curve
===> Zweig (I think)
[/quote:f68cc1f92e]
'Zweig des Logarithmus' is definitely used where English
would say 'branch of the (complex) logarithm'.
[...]
Brian |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:23 pm |
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PaulJK pravi:
[quote:be58b2429d]Artur Jachacy wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:16:37 +1200, PaulJK wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
[...]
To expand on that, true cognates are often false friends, such as the
following pairs of true cognates:
French "attendre" = "wait", not "attend" Spanish "embarazada" =
"pregnant", not "embarrassed" German "Knabe" = "boy", not "knave"
Most of the old native words in Slavic languages will have cognates in
other Slavic languages, however, quite often their meaning has changed
over time and thus they are false friends.
A typical example:
Ru "pozor"=shame, disgrace; Cz "pozor"=attention
Ru "pozorniy"=shamefull; Cz "pozorný"=quiet and attentive
Pl pozór 'appearance, as in "keeping up appearances"'
Pl pozorny 'apparent, illusory, ostensible etc.'
Hey, thanks Artur, I didn't know that.
What a busy little word this "pozor" is.
It's a solid cognate and multiple false friend extraordinaire.
As far as can ascertain, only Slovenian and perhaps
Croatian "pozor" means something akin to Czech "pozor".
pjk
[/quote:be58b2429d]
Slovenian yes, exactly the same as in Czech. "Pozor, hud pes" (Beware,
"angry" dog.)
In Croatian also true. Dictionary also gives "pozor lutaka" (puppet
show) as a sinonym for "kazalište lutaka" (puppet theatre); it is
probably connected to "pozornica" (stage). |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:30 pm |
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PaulJK pravi:
[quote:4a9df2a7e4]
"zrak" = sense of sight
[/quote:4a9df2a7e4]
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid"). |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:26 pm |
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On Oct 11, 1:30Â am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
[quote:741f2b62cc]PaulJK pravi:
colloquial
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
[/quote:741f2b62cc]
Have you forgotten your native tongue: Slvn. prozóren 'transparent',
zrcáljenje, zrcáljenje (zrcaljenje dreves v jezeru 'trees mirrored in
a lake'; 'reflections (as in water)'; Serb. "gleda majmun sebe u
zrcalo", J.J.Zmaj; 'monkey watches himself in a mirror'). Cf. Russ.
зеркало 'mirror', Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to
time, peep'.
DV |
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| Du¹an Vukotiæ... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:32 pm |
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On Oct 11, 11:26 am, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:5232e9869f]On Oct 11, 1:30Â am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
colloquial
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
Have you forgotten your native tongue: Slvn. prozóren 'transparent',
zrcáljenje, zrcáljenje  (zrcaljenje dreves v jezeru 'trees mirrored in
a lake'; Â 'reflections (as in water)'; Serb. "gleda majmun sebe u
zrcalo", J.J.Zmaj; 'monkey watches himself in a mirror'). Cf. Russ.
зеркало 'mirror', Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to
time, peep'.
DV
[/quote:5232e9869f]
Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to time, peep'.
______________________
Also, Serb. zrikati (same as zirkati, 'peep'); zrikav 'squint-eyed',
razrok 'skew-eyed, squint-eyed' <= raz-zrok
DV |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:59 pm |
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On Oct 11, 1:23Â am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
[quote:f14296faa3]PaulJK pravi:
Artur Jachacy wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:16:37 +1200, PaulJK wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
[...]
To expand on that, true cognates are often false friends, such as the
following pairs of true cognates:
French "attendre" = "wait", not "attend" Spanish "embarazada" > >>>> "pregnant", not "embarrassed" German "Knabe" = "boy", not "knave"
Most of the old native words in Slavic languages will have cognates in
other Slavic languages, however, quite often their meaning has changed
over time and thus they are false friends.
A typical example:
Ru "pozor"=shame, disgrace; Cz "pozor"=attention
Ru "pozorniy"=shamefull; Cz "pozorný"=quiet and attentive
Pl pozór 'appearance, as in "keeping up appearances"'
Pl pozorny 'apparent, illusory, ostensible etc.'
Hey, thanks Artur, I didn't know that.
What a busy little word this "pozor" is.
It's a solid cognate and multiple false friend extraordinaire.
As far as can ascertain, only Slovenian and perhaps
Croatian "pozor" means something akin to Czech "pozor".
pjk
Slovenian yes, exactly the same as in Czech. "Pozor, hud pes" (Beware,
"angry" dog.)
In Croatian also true. Dictionary also gives "pozor lutaka" (puppet
show) as a sinonym for "kazalište lutaka" (puppet theatre); it is
probably connected to "pozornica" (stage).
[/quote:f14296faa3]
Pozor is 'attention, care' in Serbo-Croatian; upozoriti 'to alert,
warn, beware'; slušati/gledati pozorno 'be attentive and listen/
watch carefully'; hence, probable, pozornica and pozorište 'scene,
stage'. Pozor lutaka is a Croatian neologism (they are trying to
detour the Serbian at any cost); pozor instead of pozorište/pozornica
lutaka. If we had literally translated "pozor lutaka" it would have
read: the doll's attention. Ridiculous!
DV |
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| Dušan Vukotić... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:38 am |
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On Oct 11, 4:03Â pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
[quote:5178b979b8]Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Oct 11, 1:30 am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
colloquial
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
Have you forgotten your native tongue: Slvn. prozóren 'transparent',
zrcáljenje, zrcáljenje  (zrcaljenje dreves v jezeru 'trees mirrored in
a lake'; Â 'reflections (as in water)'; Serb. "gleda majmun sebe u
zrcalo", J.J.Zmaj; 'monkey watches himself in a mirror'). Cf. Russ.
зеркало 'mirror', Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to
time, peep'.
I don't believe Nikolaj has forgotten anything. We were talking
specifically about the word "zrak" meaning "sense of sight".
In this particular case, your Franz-like free associations are of
very little interest.
pjk
[/quote:5178b979b8]
Kriha, are you a false cognate or a false friend? ;-)
DV |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:04 am |
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On Oct 11, 10:03Â am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
[quote:88c82b9db8]Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Oct 11, 1:30 am, Nikolaj <nikolaj.kor... at (no spam) bla.si> wrote:
PaulJK pravi:
colloquial
"zrak" = sense of sight
Really? Interesting. In Slovene and Croatian "zrak" means "air" (and
sense of sight is "vid").
Have you forgotten your native tongue: Slvn. prozóren 'transparent',
zrcáljenje, zrcáljenje  (zrcaljenje dreves v jezeru 'trees mirrored in
a lake'; Â 'reflections (as in water)'; Serb. "gleda majmun sebe u
zrcalo", J.J.Zmaj; 'monkey watches himself in a mirror'). Cf. Russ.
зеркало 'mirror', Serb. colloq. zirkati 'look at smtg from time to
time, peep'.
I don't believe Nikolaj has forgotten anything. We were talking
specifically about the word "zrak" meaning "sense of sight".
In this particular case, your Franz-like free associations are of
very little interest.
pjk-
[/quote:88c82b9db8]
What makes them of less interest in this particular case than usually? |
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