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| Christopher Ingham... |
 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:15 pm |
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Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:24 pm |
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On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net>
wrote:
[quote:b05e611f31]Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
[/quote:b05e611f31]
faux amis? |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:50 pm |
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On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quote:dff1e540d9]On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
[/quote:dff1e540d9]
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
Christopher Ingham |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:59 pm |
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On Sep 1, 11:50 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net>
wrote:
[quote:af9e5dd3f4]On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
Christopher Ingham
[/quote:af9e5dd3f4]
While we're on the subject, let me repeat a couple of paragraphs from
2006 when this came up:
-Wikipedia has a helpful article which attempts to sort out "false
-friends" from other, not-exactly-the-same, phenomena.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend
-I'm curious about the origin of the phrase. Looking at a very large
-bibliography on the subject at http://www.lipczuk.buncic.de/, the
-earliest use of it I can see is the title of a book by Maxime Kœssler
&
-Jules Derocquigny, Les faux amis ou Les trahisons du vocabulaire
-anglais: Conseils aux traducteurs. Paris 1928. Does anybody know if
they
-invented it?
I haven't actually seen thi Koessler & Derocquigny book, and my
question remains unanswered.
Ross Clark |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:10 pm |
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On Sep 1, 12:50 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net>
wrote:
[quote:daeadbedb1]On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
[/quote:daeadbedb1]
Because they're not at all the same? False friends are words that look
similar so that L2 learners will think they know what they mean, when
in fact they do not - hence they appear to be friendly but in fact are
the opposite. Whereas false cognates are words that look like they're
cognates - that may not imply being similar, as true cognates often
aren't - but in fact are not. |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:30 pm |
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On Aug 31, 9:10 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:2c2a7e6f89]On Sep 1, 12:50 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
Because they're not at all the same? False friends are words that look
similar so that L2 learners will think they know what they mean, when
in fact they do not - hence they appear to be friendly but in fact are
the opposite. Whereas false cognates are words that look like they're
cognates - that may not imply being similar, as true cognates often
aren't - but in fact are not.- Hide quoted text -
[/quote:2c2a7e6f89]
True, but faux amis appear to only apply to similar words in Romance
languages and English and therefore are almost always etymologically
related, or cognate; whereas a false cognate in one of its senses
(separate from the sense you describe) comprises faux amis because the
words in question are indeed cognates, but mislead as to their
respective meanings.
Chritopher Ingham |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:41 pm |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote:1cd2f53086]On Sep 1, 12:50 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
Because they're not at all the same? False friends are words that look
similar so that L2 learners will think they know what they mean, when
in fact they do not - hence they appear to be friendly but in fact are
the opposite. Whereas false cognates are words that look like they're
cognates - that may not imply being similar, as true cognates often
aren't - but in fact are not.
[/quote:1cd2f53086]
To expand on that, true cognates are often false friends, such as the
following pairs of true cognates:
French "attendre" = "wait", not "attend"
Spanish "embarazada" = "pregnant", not "embarrassed"
German "Knabe" = "boy", not "knave" |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:33 pm |
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Christopher Ingham wrote:
[quote:09f0f41001]On Aug 31, 9:10 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 1, 12:50 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
Because they're not at all the same? False friends are words that look
similar so that L2 learners will think they know what they mean, when
in fact they do not - hence they appear to be friendly but in fact are
the opposite. Whereas false cognates are words that look like they're
cognates - that may not imply being similar, as true cognates often
aren't - but in fact are not.- Hide quoted text -
True, but faux amis appear to only apply to similar words in Romance
languages and English
[/quote:09f0f41001]
??????
and therefore are almost always etymologically
[quote:09f0f41001]related, or cognate; whereas a false cognate in one of its senses
(separate from the sense you describe) comprises faux amis because the
words in question are indeed cognates, but mislead as to their
respective meanings.
[/quote:09f0f41001]
If they are indeed cognates, then they aren't false cognates. |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:16 pm |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote:dcf6329c59]António Marques wrote:
On Sep 1, 12:50 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for etymologically-related
words in different languages that are similarly spelled but which have
acquired quite different meanings?
Thanks in advance.
Christopher Ingham
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false cognate,"
which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did not find. In his
definition of "faux amis" he doesn't mention false cognates, though.
Because they're not at all the same? False friends are words that look
similar so that L2 learners will think they know what they mean, when
in fact they do not - hence they appear to be friendly but in fact are
the opposite. Whereas false cognates are words that look like they're
cognates - that may not imply being similar, as true cognates often
aren't - but in fact are not.
To expand on that, true cognates are often false friends, such as the
following pairs of true cognates:
French "attendre" = "wait", not "attend"
Spanish "embarazada" = "pregnant", not "embarrassed"
German "Knabe" = "boy", not "knave"
[/quote:dcf6329c59]
Most of the old native words in Slavic languages will have
cognates in other Slavic languages, however, quite often their
meaning has changed over time and thus they are false friends.
A typical example:
Ru "pozor"=shame, disgrace; Cz "pozor"=attention
Ru "pozorniy"=shamefull; Cz "pozorný"=quiet and attentive
pjk |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:02 pm |
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On Aug 31, 8:59 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quote:176c588e84]
While we're on the subject, let me repeat a couple of paragraphs from
2006 when this came up:
-Wikipedia has a helpful article which attempts to sort out "false
-friends" from other, not-exactly-the-same, phenomena.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend
-I'm curious about the origin of the phrase. Looking at a very large
-bibliography on the subject athttp://www.lipczuk.buncic.de/, the
-earliest use of it I can see is the title of a book by Maxime Kœssler
&
-Jules Derocquigny, Les faux amis ou Les trahisons du vocabulaire
-anglais: Conseils aux traducteurs. Paris 1928. Does anybody know if
they
-invented it?
I haven't actually seen thi Koessler & Derocquigny book, and my
question remains unanswered.
[/quote:176c588e84]
"The term 'faux amis' is a variant on '_mots-sosies_' (double words)
used by Veslot and Banchet (1922). It occurs for the first time in_Les
faus amis ou les trahisons du vocabulaire anglais_(Koessler and
Derocquigny, 1928)."
-- J.-P. Vinay et al.,_Comparative Stylistics of French and English_
(Philadelphia, 1995), 68.
http://books.google.com/books?id=I06D-6gU45sC&pg=PA68&dq=koessler+faux+amis&ei=29GcSrrTK5P4NdqWzYQB#v=onepage&q=koessler%20faux%20amis&f=false
Christopher Ingham |
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| Christopher Ingham... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:03 pm |
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On Sep 1, 1:58 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc... at (no spam) csuohio.edu> wrote:
[quote:ab1e121f7b]On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham
christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in
news:dfdf1e03-86df-41a0-b116-4c7bdd736036 at (no spam) m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
in sci.lang:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for
etymologically-related words in different languages
that are similarly spelled but which have acquired
quite different meanings?
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false
cognate," which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did
not find. [...]
It is not. Faux amis, or false friends, are words in two
varieties (languages, dialects, etc.) that differ in meaning
but look and sound sufficiently similar to lead one to
expect that they would be near synonyms.
[/quote:ab1e121f7b]
I don't think that similarity of pronunciation matters.
Examples are
[quote:ab1e121f7b]konsequent> (German) ~ <consequent> (English) and <to table
a motion> (UK) ~ <to table a motion> (US).
False cognates are words that appear to be cognates and are
not. The classic example is Greek <theós> and Latin <deus
'god'.
[/quote:ab1e121f7b]
As I tried to express to Harlan, "false cognate" in a variant sense
appears to be identical to "faux amis." This definition may not be
formally correct, but the explicit testimonies of innumerable
commentators that the terms are in fact equivalent suggests that it
may become accepted as such.
Anyway, "deceptive cognate" is probably a better choice. More recently
"agents doubles" has appeared.
Christopher Ingham |
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| Brian M. Scott... |
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:58 pm |
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Guest
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham
<christopheringham at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in
<news:dfdf1e03-86df-41a0-b116-4c7bdd736036 at (no spam) m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
[quote:7f787b8da1]On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for
etymologically-related words in different languages
that are similarly spelled but which have acquired
quite different meanings?
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false
cognate," which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did
not find. [...]
[/quote:7f787b8da1]
It is not. Faux amis, or false friends, are words in two
varieties (languages, dialects, etc.) that differ in meaning
but look and sound sufficiently similar to lead one to
expect that they would be near synonyms. Examples are
<konsequent> (German) ~ <consequent> (English) and <to table
a motion> (UK) ~ <to table a motion> (US).
False cognates are words that appear to be cognates and are
not. The classic example is Greek <theós> and Latin <deus>
'god'.
Brian |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:33 am |
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On Sep 1, 12:44 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net>
wrote:
[quote:bcc52b12c2]True, but faux amis appear to only apply to similar words in Romance
languages and English
??????
The term apparently now is applied to a closed group of languages:
English and those descended from Latin.
[/quote:bcc52b12c2]
Ger. Gift / Eng. gift are true cognates and false friends.
Someone else has already mentioned Knabe / knave. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:39 am |
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On Sep 1, 5:03 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net>
wrote:
[quote:90a0302bcc]On Sep 1, 1:58 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc... at (no spam) csuohio.edu> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham
christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in
news:dfdf1e03-86df-41a0-b116-4c7bdd736036 at (no spam) m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
in sci.lang:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for
etymologically-related words in different languages
that are similarly spelled but which have acquired
quite different meanings?
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false
cognate," which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did
not find. [...]
It is not. Faux amis, or false friends, are words in two
varieties (languages, dialects, etc.) that differ in meaning
but look and sound sufficiently similar to lead one to
expect that they would be near synonyms.
I don't think that similarity of pronunciation matters.
Examples are
konsequent> (German) ~ <consequent> (English) and <to table
a motion> (UK) ~ <to table a motion> (US).
False cognates are words that appear to be cognates and are
not. The classic example is Greek <theós> and Latin <deus
'god'.
As I tried to express to Harlan, "false cognate" in a variant sense
appears to be identical to "faux amis." This definition may not be
formally correct, but the explicit testimonies of innumerable
commentators that the terms are in fact equivalent suggests that it
may become accepted as such.
[/quote:90a0302bcc]
You are free to use words however you want. (Though, like Humpty
Dumpty, you should probably pay them extra if you do.)
If, however, you want to be understood, you should use words the way
most other people understand them.
[quote:90a0302bcc]Anyway, "deceptive cognate" is probably a better choice. More recently
"agents doubles" has appeared.[/quote:90a0302bcc] |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:38 am |
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Guest
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Christopher Ingham wrote:
[quote:077ee6651e]On Sep 1, 1:58 am, "Brian M. Scott"<b.sc... at (no spam) csuohio.edu> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:50:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham
christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in
news:dfdf1e03-86df-41a0-b116-4c7bdd736036 at (no spam) m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
in sci.lang:
On Aug 31, 7:24 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz"<benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Sep 1, 11:15 am, Christopher Ingham<christophering... at (no spam) comcast.net
wrote:
Please jar my memory -- What is the term for
etymologically-related words in different languages
that are similarly spelled but which have acquired
quite different meanings?
faux amis?
That fits.
Evidently it's the same (as I see in googling) as "false
cognate," which I earlier consulted Fowler for but did
not find. [...]
It is not. Faux amis, or false friends, are words in two
varieties (languages, dialects, etc.) that differ in meaning
but look and sound sufficiently similar to lead one to
expect that they would be near synonyms.
I don't think that similarity of pronunciation matters.
Examples are
konsequent> (German) ~<consequent> (English) and<to table
a motion> (UK) ~<to table a motion> (US).
False cognates are words that appear to be cognates and are
not. The classic example is Greek<theós> and Latin<deus
'god'.
As I tried to express to Harlan, "false cognate" in a variant sense
appears to be identical to "faux amis." This definition may not be
formally correct, but the explicit testimonies of innumerable
commentators that the terms are in fact equivalent suggests that it
may become accepted as such.
[/quote:077ee6651e]
Well, they're wrong. 'False X' means that thing isn't an X. Hence a
'false cognate' simply can't be a cognate.
[quote:077ee6651e]Anyway, "deceptive cognate" is probably a better choice.
[/quote:077ee6651e]
A choice for what, and better in what sense?
The existing terms are quite good at expressing their meanings.
[quote:077ee6651e]More recently
"agents doubles" has appeared.
Christopher Ingham
[/quote:077ee6651e] |
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