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| ModerateMallu... |
 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:06 am |
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Guest
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Romanise wrote:
[quote:dac8ff7159]Matthew Amroliwala
Have long suspected him to be a Parsee.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Amroliwala
Had to be sure because of -wala in his surname.
Amroli is shown as almost part of Surat. I thought it was bit far to
the south on rail line.
[/quote:dac8ff7159]
The -wala suffix could be either Parsee (Zoroastrian) or Bohri (Shia
Muslim). Interestingly, Zoroastrians have Persian roots, while Bohris
have Arab roots. Although their origins are different they have good bit
of similarity in the way they speak Gujarati, and their cuisine too, no? |
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| Romanise... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:21 am |
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Guest
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On Jul 26, 6:20 pm, ModerateMallu <KalluMallu... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:3e22a8024b]Romanise wrote:
On Jul 26, 4:20 pm, ModerateMallu <KalluMallu... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Romanise wrote:
Dont know about Marathi, but Hindi called it baDaudaa. Doubt if
Gaekwads themselves called it baDaudaa.
Here is a link that might help
http://www.mapsofindia.com/vadodra/history/origin.html
Knew vaTa+udara. Did know other stuff. Thanks.
Couple of nitpicks. The website translates the compound to "heart of the
banyan tree." The Sanskrit dictionary definition would be "belly
(udaram) of the fig tree (vaTa)" :-)
As for Valsad, the Wikipedia entry is unconvincing. It say the word is a
corruption of vad (banyan tree???) and saal (meaning hampering). So,
vad-saal becomes valsaad. Are Gujjus dyslexic? :-)
As for Ranjit's question on whether the names of the cities have Marathi
or Gujarati origins. The answer is, neither. Most names have Sanskritic
origins that are modified in the local language.
[/quote:3e22a8024b]
Place names are studied by Archeologists, Historians and would you
believe it by Bio-Science people. Of course for many finding a reason
why it is so takes one no where. The village in the boundaries of
which I was born is called CHHAYAA. The word has meaning 'shadow' but
how could it have become name of a place. The place was founded by the
rulers of the region who were pushed back by the Jadeja kings of
Jamnagar region. I fact village school always was conducted in the
fort that was built by the kings, visible clearly on Google Earth. |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:12 am |
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Guest
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On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:8221f440bd]On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
[/quote:8221f440bd]
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion. |
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| ModerateMallu... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:20 am |
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Guest
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:37 am |
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Guest
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On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quote:7ba9221c53]On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia..org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
[/quote:7ba9221c53]
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.) |
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| ModerateMallu... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:20 am |
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Guest
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Romanise wrote:
[quote:63fa03db27]On Jul 26, 4:20�pm, ModerateMallu <KalluMallu... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Romanise wrote:
Dont know about Marathi, but Hindi called it baDaudaa. Doubt if
Gaekwads themselves called it baDaudaa.
Here is a link that might help
http://www.mapsofindia.com/vadodra/history/origin.html
Knew vaTa+udara. Did know other stuff. Thanks.
[/quote:63fa03db27]
Couple of nitpicks. The website translates the compound to "heart of the
banyan tree." The Sanskrit dictionary definition would be "belly
(udaram) of the fig tree (vaTa)" :-)
As for Valsad, the Wikipedia entry is unconvincing. It say the word is a
corruption of vad (banyan tree???) and saal (meaning hampering). So,
vad-saal becomes valsaad. Are Gujjus dyslexic? :-)
As for Ranjit's question on whether the names of the cities have Marathi
or Gujarati origins. The answer is, neither. Most names have Sanskritic
origins that are modified in the local language. |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:28 pm |
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Guest
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On Jul 27, 8:37 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:5110156f8e]On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
[/quote:5110156f8e]
Yes, he was born in 1946. By the time Tanzania came into existence, he
was probably in England. But this was not a discussion about the
technicalities of citizenship. It arose from someone's comment that
the speaker in the backward-speaking video clip didn't "look Indian".
In reply to which some people said something roughly equivalent to
your parenthetical above -- that Indian people look many different
ways. FM was mentioned as an Indian who didn't "look Indian". His
parents were both born in India, of ancestry resident in India for
many centuries. They moved to Zanzibar as adults, and sent their son
back to India where he spent almost all his school years. If you want
to state dogmatically that he was "not Indian" on the grounds of his
place of birth, probably nobody cares much. |
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| Crone... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:38 pm |
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Guest
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote:3bd2259cfe]On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
[/quote:3bd2259cfe]
Parsees or Parsis are ethnically of Persian/Iranian origin, and have
retained the integrity of their ethnicity by not permitting
intermarriage or conversions into their faith, and by retaining their
distinct customs. There is some dispute over their ethnic integrity, as
mtDNA indicates an affinity with the people of Gujarat, but that would
indicate patrilineal insularity. I doubt there has been any recent
dilution through the matrilineal route. Their numbers are steadily
declining through childlessness, de facto inbreeding and the
consequences, and there is a strong likelihood of the community's total
disintegration within the next few generations.
Fwiw, "Indian" could be considered as much an ethnic identity as "Arab"
or "European". |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:21 pm |
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Guest
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On Jul 26, 7:28 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quote:c93f932c71]On Jul 27, 8:37 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon..net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
Yes, he was born in 1946.
[/quote:c93f932c71]
So much older than me???
[quote:c93f932c71]By the time Tanzania came into existence, he
was probably in England. But this was not a discussion about the
technicalities of citizenship. It arose from someone's comment that
the speaker in the backward-speaking video clip didn't "look Indian".
In reply to which some people said something roughly equivalent to
your parenthetical above -- that Indian people look many different
[/quote:c93f932c71]
(That wasn't me)
[quote:c93f932c71]ways. FM was mentioned as an Indian who didn't "look Indian". His
parents were both born in India, of ancestry resident in India for
many centuries. They moved to Zanzibar as adults, and sent their son
back to India where he spent almost all his school years. If you want
to state dogmatically that he was "not Indian" on the grounds of his
place of birth, probably nobody cares much.-
[/quote:c93f932c71]
"Indian" can't mean anything but citizenship. And in 1946, he wouldn't
have been a citizen of India, either!
And Crone notes that Parsi genetic ethnicity correlates with non-Indic
linguistic communities. |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:07 pm |
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Guest
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On Jul 27, 3:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:fb517c13af]On Jul 26, 7:28 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 8:37 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
Yes, he was born in 1946.
So much older than me???
By the time Tanzania came into existence, he
was probably in England. But this was not a discussion about the
technicalities of citizenship. It arose from someone's comment that
the speaker in the backward-speaking video clip didn't "look Indian".
In reply to which some people said something roughly equivalent to
your parenthetical above -- that Indian people look many different
(That wasn't me)
ways. FM was mentioned as an Indian who didn't "look Indian". His
parents were both born in India, of ancestry resident in India for
many centuries. They moved to Zanzibar as adults, and sent their son
back to India where he spent almost all his school years. If you want
to state dogmatically that he was "not Indian" on the grounds of his
place of birth, probably nobody cares much.-
"Indian" can't mean anything but citizenship.
[/quote:fb517c13af]
Indeed? What penalties will be imposed if it attempts to mean
something else?
And in 1946, he wouldn't
[quote:fb517c13af]have been a citizen of India, either!
[/quote:fb517c13af]
I think you have gently led your definition into a little blind alley
of absurdity. So if we take you seriously, there were no Indians
before 1947?
[quote:fb517c13af]
And Crone notes that Parsi genetic ethnicity correlates with non-Indic
linguistic communities.
[/quote:fb517c13af]
We are talking about "Indian", not "Indic". |
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| ModerateMallu... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:02 pm |
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Guest
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benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz wrote:
[quote:66d247e441]On Jul 27, 8:37�am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 26, 3:12�pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45�am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08�pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51�am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02�pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54�am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17�pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12�am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
Yes, he was born in 1946. By the time Tanzania came into existence, he
was probably in England. But this was not a discussion about the
technicalities of citizenship. It arose from someone's comment that
the speaker in the backward-speaking video clip didn't "look Indian".
In reply to which some people said something roughly equivalent to
your parenthetical above -- that Indian people look many different
ways. FM was mentioned as an Indian who didn't "look Indian". His
parents were both born in India, of ancestry resident in India for
many centuries. They moved to Zanzibar as adults, and sent their son
back to India where he spent almost all his school years. If you want
to state dogmatically that he was "not Indian" on the grounds of his
place of birth, probably nobody cares much.
[/quote:66d247e441]
1946: FM is born in the British Protectorate of Zanzibar. FM's and FM's
parents' citizenship unknown. Did birth in a British Protectorate mean a
British passport? I suppose so. It would have certainly helped 18 years
later.
1947: India becomes independent, but part of the British Commonwealth.
FM's parents' citizenship sill unknown - presumed Indian despite
residence in the British Protectorate of Zanzibar.
1950: India becomes a republic. FM's parents' citizenship unknown, still
in Zanzibar. The parents (and FM too) would have had to make a choice of
citizenship. They might have opted for a British passport instead of an
Indian one because Zanzibar was still a British Protectorate at this point.
1954: FM shipped off to Panchgani (Pune, India) from Zanzibar (still a
British Protectorate). Don't know about Indian school admission rules,
but FM's passport would have been an issue. Then again, if the price is
right, money trumps a passport ;-)
1961: Tanganyika becomes independent, but part of the British
Commonwealth. Zanzibar is still a British Protectorate and FM's parents
still live in Zanzibar presumably under a British passport.
1962: Tanganyika becomes a republic. Zanzibar is still a British
Protectorate.
1963: FM returns to Zanzibar from India. Zanzibar becomes independent
and a constitutional monarchy. But there are rumblings of a revolution.
FM and FM's parents flee Zanzibar to Britain. Presumably entering
Britain would have been easy only for British passport holders. FM and
family would have become British citizens.
1964: Zanzibar revolution occurs. The revolution is a prequel to Idi
Amin's shenanigans in Uganda decades later. People targeted in Zanzibar
are Arabs and South Asians (both wealthier than people of African
ethnicity). Zanzibar merges with Tanganyika to form the United Republic
of Tanzania. But FM and family don't live in Zanzibar/Tanzania anymore.
The long and the short of all of this rambling is that Freddie Mercury
was a British citizen of Indo-Persian ethnicity, and not a Tanzanian
citizen (even by birth). However, despite being a British citizen,
"aapro Farokh" looked like a Parsee, if not Indian  |
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| ranjit_mathews at (no spam) yahoo.com... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:59 pm |
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Guest
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On Jul 26, 11:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:a0b2b471f3]"Indian" can't mean anything but citizenship. And in 1946, he wouldn't
have been a citizen of India, either!
[/quote:a0b2b471f3]
Does a Parsi from Mumbai, who looks like Freddie Mercury, not look
like an Indian?
[quote:a0b2b471f3]And Crone notes that Parsi genetic ethnicity correlates with non-Indic
linguistic communities.
[/quote:a0b2b471f3]
That would be true in my case too (Malayalam is non-Indic). |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:19 am |
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Guest
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On Jul 27, 12:07 am, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz>
wrote:
[quote:978101562e]On Jul 27, 3:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 26, 7:28 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 8:37 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon..net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
Yes, he was born in 1946.
So much older than me???
By the time Tanzania came into existence, he
was probably in England. But this was not a discussion about the
technicalities of citizenship. It arose from someone's comment that
the speaker in the backward-speaking video clip didn't "look Indian".
In reply to which some people said something roughly equivalent to
your parenthetical above -- that Indian people look many different
(That wasn't me)
ways. FM was mentioned as an Indian who didn't "look Indian". His
parents were both born in India, of ancestry resident in India for
many centuries. They moved to Zanzibar as adults, and sent their son
back to India where he spent almost all his school years. If you want
to state dogmatically that he was "not Indian" on the grounds of his
place of birth, probably nobody cares much.-
"Indian" can't mean anything but citizenship.
Indeed? What penalties will be imposed if it attempts to mean
something else?
[/quote:978101562e]
Hunh?
What could "Indian" mean before there was a country named "India"?
There were dozens of polities (with all those rajahs and maharajahs
and such), which would claim the allegiance of South Asians before
there was an "India" -- people from Lahore were "Indian" before 1947:
but would any of them have claimed to be such a thing?
[quote:978101562e]And in 1946, he wouldn't
have been a citizen of India, either!
I think you have gently led your definition into a little blind alley
of absurdity. So if we take you seriously, there were no Indians
before 1947?
[/quote:978101562e]
Who invented the notion of "India"?
[quote:978101562e]And Crone notes that Parsi genetic ethnicity correlates with non-Indic
linguistic communities.
We are talking about "Indian", not "Indic".-
[/quote:978101562e]
Exactly. Language tells us nothing about ethnicity. You could say "he
looks Persian," if his DNA patterns with that of Persians. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:20 am |
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Guest
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On Jul 27, 4:59 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:6a3dc45250]On Jul 26, 11:21 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
"Indian" can't mean anything but citizenship. And in 1946, he wouldn't
have been a citizen of India, either!
Does a Parsi from Mumbai, who looks like Freddie Mercury, not look
like an Indian?
[/quote:6a3dc45250]
I suppose he looks like a Parsi. It's especially clear-cut in the case
of Parsis, because Parsis do not intermarry.
[quote:6a3dc45250]And Crone notes that Parsi genetic ethnicity correlates with non-Indic
linguistic communities.
That would be true in my case too (Malayalam is non-Indic).
[/quote:6a3dc45250]
Do you look like "an Indian"? What do Indians look like? Do Andamanese
look like Indians? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:23 am |
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Guest
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On Jul 27, 12:02 am, ModerateMallu <KalluMallu... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:1d6cbf8562]benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz wrote:
On Jul 27, 8:37 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 26, 3:12 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:08 pm, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz
wrote:
On Jul 26, 10:51 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 10:54 am, Romanise <josh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:12 am, "ranjit_math... at (no spam) yahoo.com"
Did Freddie Mercury look like an Indian?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury
He looked like a Parsee Zanzibarian. Why would you call him an Indian?
A Znzibarian Parsee looks different from Indian Parsee?
No idea.
That was not the point.
The point was to wonder why ranjit would expect him to look like an
Indian, since he wasn't one.
His parents were Indians. His surname Bulsara makes his origin Bulsar
(Valsad) in Gujarat.http://www.google.com/search?q=bulsar+gujarat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&...
And he was schooled in India from age 8 to 17.-
Yeah, that would _really_ make him look like an Indian!
No, but it would support the view that he _was_ an Indian, contrary to
your assertion.-
If he was born before Tanzanian independence (which seems likely), he
was a subject of Her Majesty and presumably turned into a Tanzanian
afterward. If after, he was a Tanzanian, not an Indian. ("Indian"
isn't an ethnicity.)
Yes, he was born in 1946. By the time Tanzania came into existence, he
was probably in England. But this was not a discussion about the
technicalities of citizenship. It arose from someone's comment that
the speaker in the backward-speaking video clip didn't "look Indian".
In reply to which some people said something roughly equivalent to
your parenthetical above -- that Indian people look many different
ways. FM was mentioned as an Indian who didn't "look Indian". His
parents were both born in India, of ancestry resident in India for
many centuries. They moved to Zanzibar as adults, and sent their son
back to India where he spent almost all his school years. If you want
to state dogmatically that he was "not Indian" on the grounds of his
place of birth, probably nobody cares much.
1946: FM is born in the British Protectorate of Zanzibar. FM's and FM's
parents' citizenship unknown. Did birth in a British Protectorate mean a
British passport? I suppose so. It would have certainly helped 18 years
later.
1947: India becomes independent, but part of the British Commonwealth.
FM's parents' citizenship sill unknown - presumed Indian despite
residence in the British Protectorate of Zanzibar.
1950: India becomes a republic. FM's parents' citizenship unknown, still
in Zanzibar. The parents (and FM too) would have had to make a choice of
citizenship. They might have opted for a British passport instead of an
Indian one because Zanzibar was still a British Protectorate at this point.
1954: FM shipped off to Panchgani (Pune, India) from Zanzibar (still a
British Protectorate). Don't know about Indian school admission rules,
but FM's passport would have been an issue. Then again, if the price is
right, money trumps a passport ;-)
1961: Tanganyika becomes independent, but part of the British
Commonwealth. Zanzibar is still a British Protectorate and FM's parents
still live in Zanzibar presumably under a British passport.
1962: Tanganyika becomes a republic. Zanzibar is still a British
Protectorate.
1963: FM returns to Zanzibar from India. Zanzibar becomes independent
and a constitutional monarchy. But there are rumblings of a revolution.
FM and FM's parents flee Zanzibar to Britain. Presumably entering
Britain would have been easy only for British passport holders. FM and
family would have become British citizens.
[/quote:1d6cbf8562]
(This was discussed here a while ago -- they're not called "British
citizens," which is why I used the phrase "subjects of Her Majesty.")
[quote:1d6cbf8562]1964: Zanzibar revolution occurs. The revolution is a prequel to Idi
Amin's shenanigans in Uganda decades later. People targeted in Zanzibar
are Arabs and South Asians (both wealthier than people of African
ethnicity). Zanzibar merges with Tanganyika to form the United Republic
of Tanzania. But FM and family don't live in Zanzibar/Tanzania anymore.
The long and the short of all of this rambling is that Freddie Mercury
was a British citizen of Indo-Persian ethnicity, and not a Tanzanian
citizen (even by birth). However, despite being a British citizen,
"aapro Farokh" looked like a Parsee, if not Indian -[/quote:1d6cbf8562] |
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