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| Science Forum Index » Language Translation Forum » GER > ENG idiom "the die was/is cast"... |
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| Pete... |
 Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:23 pm |
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Hi everybody!
Is the English equivalent to the German "Die Würfel sind gefallen."
restricted to present tense ("The die is cast.") or could you also say "The
die was cast."?
Thanks for your help!
Pete |
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| Evertjan.... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:09 pm |
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Pete wrote on 15 jun 2009 in sci.lang.translation:
[quote:fec179b35e]Is the English equivalent to the German "Die Würfel sind gefallen."
restricted to present tense ("The die is cast.")
[/quote:fec179b35e]
"The die is cast" is NOT present tense.
[quote:fec179b35e]or could you also say
"The die was cast."?
[/quote:fec179b35e]
One could, but why? One could say anything.
If you want to translate from Caesar's Latin,
why not keep the perfectum tense.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress) |
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| Pete... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:30 am |
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[quote:41b5926035]One could, but why? One could say anything.
[/quote:41b5926035]
My question, however, is what a native speaker would consider idiomatic or
unidiomatic. As a native speaker of German, for example, I consider "Die
Würfel sind gefallen." to be more idiomatic than "Der Würfel ist gefallen." |
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| alan... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:37 am |
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"Pete" <wolffpeter at (no spam) t-online.de> wrote in message
news:h18dra$uiu$03$1 at (no spam) news.t-online.com...
[quote:c072f0c1df]One could, but why? One could say anything.
My question, however, is what a native speaker would consider idiomatic or
unidiomatic. As a native speaker of German, for example, I consider "Die
Würfel sind gefallen." to be more idiomatic than "Der Würfel ist
gefallen."
[/quote:c072f0c1df]
Your first question actually had to do with your perception of tense. To
answer your current question, which has to do with whether "die" or "dice"
is idiomatically appropriate in English, I would say that you should use the
singular.
The expression used in English ("the die is cast") is much more closely tied
to the Latin "alea jacta est".
"The dice are cast" is NOT idiomatic English, even if German has pluralized
the original expression . . . |
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| Evertjan.... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:44 am |
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Guest
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Pete wrote on 16 jun 2009 in sci.lang.translation:
[quote:9988cb8732]One could, but why? One could say anything.
My question, however, is what a native speaker would consider
idiomatic or unidiomatic. As a native speaker of German, for example,
I consider "Die Würfel sind gefallen." to be more idiomatic than "Der
Würfel ist gefallen."
[/quote:9988cb8732]
That might be so, I am no native, but I doubt it,
because 1 it just depends on the game played, not on idiom, and
because 2 it is a translation of Ceasar's famous Rubicon words:
"Iacta alea esto"
"alea" is feminimum singulare, meaning a single die,
but might be the game in general.
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alea, ae, f. of uncer. origin; Curtius asserts an obscure connection with
the words for bone; Sanscr. asthi; Zend, açti; Gr. ?st???; Lat. os
(ossis).
I A game with dice, and in gen., a game of hazard or chance. There were
among the Romans two kinds of dice, tesserae and tali, Cic. Sen. 16, 58.
The tesserae had six sides, which were marked with I. II. III. IV. V.
VI.; the tali were rounded on two sides, and marked only on the other
four. Upon one side there was one point, unio, an ace, like the ace on
cards, called canis; on the opp. side, six points called senio, six,
sice; on the two other sides, three and four points, ternio and
quaternio. In playing, four tali were used, but only three tesserae. They
were put into a box made in the form of a tower, with a strait neck, and
wider below than above, called fritillus, turris, turricula, etc. This
box was shaken, and the dice were thrown upon the gaming-board. The
highest or most fortunate throw, called Venus, jactus Venereus or
basilicus, was, of the tesserae, three sixes, and of the tali when they
all came out with different numbers. The worst or lowest throw, called
jactus pessimus or damnosus, canis or canicula, was, of the tesserae,
three aces, and of the tali when they were all the same. The other throws
were valued acc. to the numbers. When one of the tali fell upon the end
(in caput) it was said rectus cadere, or assistere, Cic. Fin. 3, 16, 54,
and the throw was repeated. While throwing the dice, it was customary for
a person to express his wishes, to repeat the name of his mistress, and
the like. Games of chance were prohibited by the Lex Titia et Publicia et
Cornelia (cf. Hor. C. 3, 24, 5 , except in the month of December, during
the Saturnalia, Mart. 4, 14, 7; 5, 85; 14, 1; Suet. Aug. 71; Dig. 11, 5.
The character of gamesters, aleatores or aleones, was held as infamous in
the time of Cicero, cf. Cic. Cat. 2, 5, 10; id. Phil. 2, 23, although
there was much playing with aleae, and old men were esp. fond of this
game, because it required little physical exertion, Cic. Sen. 16, 58;
Suet. Aug. 71; Juv. 14, 4; cf. Jahn, Ov. Tr. 2, 471; Rupert. ad Tac. G.
24, 5: provocat me in aleam, ut ego ludam, Plaut. Curc. 2, 3, 75. —
Ludere alea or aleam, also sometimes in alea: in foro alea ludere, Cic.
Phil. 2, 23, 56; Dig. 11, 5, 1: ludit assidue aleam, Poët. ap. Suet. Aug.
70: aleam studiosissime lusit, Suet. Claud. 33; so id. Ner. 30; Juv. 8,
10: repetitio ejus, quod in alea lusum est, Dig. 11, 5, 4. — Hence, in
alea aliquid perdere, Cic. Phil. 2, 13: exercere aleam, Tac. G. 24:
indulgere aleae, Suet. Aug. 70: oblectare se alea, id. Dom. 21:
prosperiore alea uti, to play fortunately, id. Calig. 41. —
Trop.: Jacta alea esto, Let the die be cast! Let the game be ventured!
the memorable exclamation of Cæsar when, at the Rubicon, after long
hesitation, he finally decided to march to Rome, Suet. Caes. 32, ubi v.
Casaub. and Ruhnk. —
II Transf., any thing uncertain or contingent, an accident, chance,
hazard, venture, risk: alea domini vitae ac rei familiaris, Varr. R. R.
1, 4: sequentes non aleam, sed rationem aliquam, id. ib. 1, 18: aleam
inesse hostiis deligendis, Cic. Div. 2, 15: dare summam rerum in aleam,
to risk, Liv. 42, 59: in dubiam imperii servitiique aleam ire, fortune,
chance, id. 1, 23: alea belli, id. 37, 36: talibus admissis alea grandis
inest, Ov. A. A. 1, 376: periculosae plenum opus aleae, Hor. C. 2, 1, 6:
M. Tullius extra omnem ingenii aleam positus, raised above all doubt of
his talents, Plin. praef. § 7: emere aleam, in the Pandects, to purchase
any thing uncertain, contingent, e. g. a draught of fishes, Dig. 18, 1,
8; so ib. 18, 4, 7.
<http://artfl.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?
c.0:1777.lewshort>
================
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress) |
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