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| Anonymous... |
 Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:39 pm |
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In article <a64dc191-5b76-4a0a-b09b-8c3b695acfa9 at (no spam) h18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>
Edmond Wollmann <AArctophilax at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:2ebe49eb9c]
Integrity is
[/quote:2ebe49eb9c]
Something you don't have. |
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| John Jones |
| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:06 pm |
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Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 5232
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Immortalist wrote:
[quote:fd82c33d75]Since most people do not want to be Killed, do not want others to
cause them Pain, do not want others to Disable them, do not want
others to Deprive them of Freedom, do not want others to Deprive them
of Pleasure, and we have neurological evidence of drives and needs in
the human brain that are universal,
[/quote:fd82c33d75]
Come on, again. There is no "neurological evidence" because the facts of
neurology are built by the evidence! |
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| John Jones |
| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:14 pm |
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Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 5232
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Immortalist wrote:
[quote:b6e0a8389a]Since most people do not want to be Killed, do not want others to
cause them Pain, do not want others to Disable them, do not want
others to Deprive them of Freedom, do not want others to Deprive them
of Pleasure, and we have neurological evidence of drives and needs in
the human brain that are universal,
[/quote:b6e0a8389a]
There is no "neurological evidence of drives and needs" because the
facts of neurology are built by the evidence - the evidence of drives
and needs! |
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| ... |
| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:25 pm |
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On May 31, 5:52 pm, SuperPack <superpack.emails.2... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:c659bc25bd]In article <00c7c597-1a77-408b-ac38-1c729a096... at (no spam) c19g2000yqc.googlegroups..com
EHWollm... at (no spam) aol.com wrote:
Wisdom requires foresight,
Two things you lack.
[/quote:c659bc25bd]
Right, that's why I can post under my real name and identity for 15
years without fear while you hide behind remailers with the name
superpackemails.
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
The SUN http://www.edmondwollmann.com/ |
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| Daniel T.... |
| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:40 pm |
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EHWollmann at (no spam) aol.com wrote:
[quote:63986adaac]I hope this serves to illustrate the point. Although we may have
some survival instrincts common to all animals, we have conscious
commandment which allows us to conceptualize aspects of our
existence and therefore we can act from wisdom and foresight rather
than just instinct.
[/quote:63986adaac]
The above makes it sound like we have to "fight our animal nature" in
order to cooperate and that is obviously not true at all. Cooperation is
the default position among the animal kingdom. Following our instinct is
exactly what is needed, instead of trying to rationalize it away. |
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| SuperPack... |
| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:52 pm |
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Guest
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In article <00c7c597-1a77-408b-ac38-1c729a096c0b at (no spam) c19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>
EHWollmann at (no spam) aol.com wrote:
[quote:d2a524148a]
Wisdom requires foresight,
[/quote:d2a524148a]
Two things you lack. |
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| ZerkonXXXX... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:11 am |
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On Sun, 31 May 2009 10:51:53 -0400, Daniel T. wrote:
[quote:1bc3f9a7f5]I don't think so. The basic idea is to try to figure out what someone
who isn't a stake holder would do; or to try to find a solution in
which, whether you are chosen to jump ship or not, you feel the decision
was *not* a "statement of power".
[/quote:1bc3f9a7f5]
These types of "what if's" are all centered upon the power of the
captains seat which immediately grants an immunity to their own judgment.
It conditions the perception of exceptionalism to the force of law. To
me, these days this kind of stuff is no longer cute nor witty nor some
abstract exercise.
Exercises using such horrific dilemma are ghoulish and demand a most
unnatural and inhuman detachment that, in my view, should be confined to
if and when it really happens and not made into an abstract playground. |
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| ZerkonXXXX... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:18 am |
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On Sun, 31 May 2009 09:00:07 -0700, arcturianone wrote:
[quote:4e0a384990]You are mixing the delusion of "survival of the fittest" with concepts
of morals and laws, this is why the examples you all give are non-
sensical
[/quote:4e0a384990]
You seem to me to be in an exchange with yourself here not my post so
I'll leave you to it. |
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| A B... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:08 pm |
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<arcturianone at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote (1st June):
[quote:df6909a895][Animals] are not individualized ego-
constructs. They are a collective consciousness or "souls" if you
wish, we are individuals.
[/quote:df6909a895]
Where do you get this idea? I know of no particular evidence that animals
are not individuals, if you have some I would be glad to see it.
<snip>
[quote:df6909a895]I used to train raptors, trust me, if they are hungry enough they will
eat their mother, despite your assertion of cooperation.
And they won't have another thought--or any guilt-- about it.
[/quote:df6909a895]
True. Hawks don't do cooperation (although I don't see how you can tell
what they are thinking). I don't think it's accurate to say that all
animals have cooperative instincts, but the evidence seems to be that humans
do.
[quote:df6909a895]So I gather you believe Madoff (the guy who ripped off 50 billion from
investors) was just not following his instincts of cooperation?
[/quote:df6909a895]
All depends which instinct you choose to follow, I suppose - the one about
helping other humans, or the one about helping yourself to their stuff...
Just my opinion. Don't know what everyone thinks of it?
A. B. |
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| Daniel T.... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:14 am |
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arcturianone at (no spam) earthlink.net wrote:
[quote:5a887e48d3]On May 31, 4:40 pm, "Daniel T." <danie... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
EHWollm... at (no spam) aol.com wrote:
I hope this serves to illustrate the point. Although we may have
some survival instrincts common to all animals, we have
conscious commandment which allows us to conceptualize aspects
of our existence and therefore we can act from wisdom and
foresight rather than just instinct.
The above makes it sound like we have to "fight our animal nature"
in order to cooperate and that is obviously not true at all.
No, I never said that, but we do grow in awareness beyond survival
instincts--some of us.
[/quote:5a887e48d3]
"Beyond" survival instincts, whatever that means, but never "against"
them, to do so means we stop surviving. |
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| Daniel T.... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:44 am |
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arcturianone at (no spam) earthlink.net wrote:
[quote:bc56d8ad85]On May 31, 4:40 pm, "Daniel T." <danie... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
Cooperation is the default position among the animal kingdom.
Following our instinct is exactly what is needed, instead of
trying to rationalize it away.
It is in the animal kingdom because they are not individualized
ego- constructs. They are a collective consciousness or "souls" if
you wish, we are individuals.
[/quote:bc56d8ad85]
I'm sorry, what does that mean exactly? How should I go about
determining if what you say above is true or false? What would be the
difference if it were false?
[quote:bc56d8ad85]I used to train raptors, trust me, if they are hungry enough they
will eat their mother, despite your assertion of cooperation. And
they won't have another thought--or any guilt-- about it.
[/quote:bc56d8ad85]
Note how you had to assert an extreme situation ("if they are hungry
enough",) in order to posit non-cooperation, that is certainly not a
default position.
[quote:bc56d8ad85]So I gather you believe Madoff (the guy who ripped off 50 billion
from investors) was just not following his instincts of cooperation?
[/quote:bc56d8ad85]
You think he single-handedly pulled off the largest ponzi scheme in
history? With no help? Think again. |
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| Daniel T.... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:55 am |
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pico <pico at (no spam) pico.pico.pico> wrote:
[quote:ff5e77c99d]There are natural laws in the most primitive sense - that which permits
a mother or father to kill anyone who threatens their offspring.
[/quote:ff5e77c99d]
Natural laws like justice, caring, greed and hate.
[quote:ff5e77c99d]And that's it. And it is not particularly useful on modern life because
we all already understand that rule. Rationalize it away as you like and
then you enter into the societies legal system, for better or worse.
[/quote:ff5e77c99d]
All your rationalizations are ex post facto.
[quote:ff5e77c99d]The only rational way to view morals are through rational discourse -
[/quote:ff5e77c99d]
I invite everybody to read the above tautology again. The problem is
that morals cannot be derived purely from rational discourse. |
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| ... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:45 am |
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Guest
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On Jun 1, 11:08 am, "A B" <a at (no spam) a> wrote:
[quote:c90d29ac7a]arcturian... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote (1st June):
[Animals] are not individualized ego-
constructs. They are a collective consciousness or "souls" if you
wish, we are individuals.
Where do you get this idea? I know of no particular evidence that animals
are not individuals, if you have some I would be glad to see it.
snip
[/quote:c90d29ac7a]
I cannot explain the whole of metaphysics to you. If a soul is a hand,
animals are like fingers on the hand, whereas a human is the hand.
Animals are directed by the oversoul, humans have free will.
[quote:c90d29ac7a]I used to train raptors, trust me, if they are hungry enough they will
eat their mother, despite your assertion of cooperation.
And they won't have another thought--or any guilt-- about it.
True. Hawks don't do cooperation (although I don't see how you can tell
[/quote:c90d29ac7a]
But you said animals were cooperative, make up your mind.
[quote:c90d29ac7a]what they are thinking). I don't think it's accurate to say that all
animals have cooperative instincts, but the evidence seems to be that humans
do.
[/quote:c90d29ac7a]
What evidence? The wars and killing of millions of people? The
Chritian crusades or the Muslims attack on 9/11? Define instincts. Any
sociology course 101 will tell you that all methods of socialization
are for the survival of the collective.
[quote:c90d29ac7a]So I gather you believe Madoff (the guy who ripped off 50 billion from
investors) was just not following his instincts of cooperation?
All depends which instinct you choose to follow, I suppose - the one about
helping other humans, or the one about helping yourself to their stuff...
[/quote:c90d29ac7a]
Now stealing is an instinct, sheez.
[quote:c90d29ac7a]Just my opinion. Don't know what everyone thinks of it?
A. B.
[/quote:c90d29ac7a]
I'd like to know where you get the idea that humans are instinctually
cooperative, and before I answer any of you who use the word
"instinctual" you need to define what you mean by that.
Instead of worring about FAQs whay don't you do some homework before
you come here making silly assertions with no basis.
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
The SUN http://www.edmondwollmann.com/ |
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| ... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:50 am |
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Guest
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On Jun 2, 3:14 am, "Daniel T." <danie... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote:dd9c0392be]arcturian... at (no spam) earthlink.net wrote:
On May 31, 4:40 pm, "Daniel T." <danie... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
EHWollm... at (no spam) aol.com wrote:
I hope this serves to illustrate the point. Although we may have
some survival instrincts common to all animals, we have
conscious commandment which allows us to conceptualize aspects
of our existence and therefore we can act from wisdom and
foresight rather than just instinct.
The above makes it sound like we have to "fight our animal nature"
in order to cooperate and that is obviously not true at all.
No, I never said that, but we do grow in awareness beyond survival
instincts--some of us.
"Beyond" survival instincts, whatever that means, but never "against"
them, to do so means we stop surviving.
[/quote:dd9c0392be]
There are different levels of people and conciousness, or do you think
Buddha and the BDK killer are expressing the same energy?
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
The SUN http://www.edmondwollmann.com/ |
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| Bob Officer... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:54 am |
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Guest
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On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:24:03 -0700 (PDT), in alt.astrology,
arcturianone at (no spam) earthlink.net wrote:
[quote:318f0253d3]I used to train raptors, trust me, if they are hungry enough they will
[/quote:318f0253d3]
are these the birds which you caught and held without a permit. From
your braging here on this newsgroup, you were a minor. The USFG,
which is in charge of granting all raptor permits, doesn't not issue
or allow minors to train or keep raptors. They never did.
IF I recall correctly, you bragged about allowing you dog to attack a
raptor which you had baited, allowing you to capture it. A violation
of the law.
Why should anyone trust you?
You are a known liar
--
Ak'toh'di |
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