On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:42:08 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
wrote:
| |
| Storm clouds are high voltage generators (Armstrong and Kelvin). As such
| they must send electrons in ALL directions.

How can a storm cloud generator a charge if it would send electrons in all
directions? Do these new charges emerge from some kind of singularity in
the middle of the cloud?

phil-news-nospam at (no spam) ipal.net> wrote news:g5fsot3g44 at (no spam) news4.newsguy.com...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:42:08 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
wrote:
| |
| Storm clouds are high voltage generators (Armstrong and Kelvin). As
such
| they must send electrons in ALL directions.

How can a storm cloud generator a charge if it would send electrons in
all
directions? Do these new charges emerge from some kind of singularity in
the middle of the cloud?

A storm cloud generate the high VOLTAGE not a charge. The Earth has the
excess of electrons so the atmosphere too. But currents and lightnings
take place only if the difference of voltage exist. Water droplets work
like the capacitor. Small drops in cloud small voltage, large drops large
voltage (see Kelvins high voltage generator). In a storm cloud are stored
heat and electrons. The both must be dissipated when the cloud disappear.
S*

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:25:45 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
wrote:
|
| <phil-news-nospam at (no spam) ipal.net> wrote news:g5fsot3g44 at (no spam) news4.newsguy.com...
|> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:42:08 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
|> wrote:
|> | |
|> | Storm clouds are high voltage generators (Armstrong and Kelvin). As
such
|> | they must send electrons in ALL directions.
|
|> How can a storm cloud generator a charge if it would send electrons in
all
|> directions? Do these new charges emerge from some kind of singularity
in
|> the middle of the cloud?
|
| A storm cloud generate the high VOLTAGE not a charge. The Earth has the
| excess of electrons so the atmosphere too. But currents and lightnings
take
| place only if the difference of voltage exist. Water droplets work like
the
| capacitor. Small drops in cloud small voltage, large drops large voltage
| (see Kelvins high voltage generator). In a storm cloud are stored heat
and
| electrons. The both must be dissipated when the cloud disappear.

If there is a voltage and no current, there is a charge. That's the
initial
state of the clouds.

A capacitor charged up has voltage and charge. Voltage is just the
density
of a change (the same charge spread over more capacitors has less
voltage).

It's a bit more than this simplistic and superficial approach.
To get a high voltage between two points, it is NECESSARY that there is a
charge separation.

This separation of charge

is the cause of the voltage difference- look at the definition of
potential difference. Updrafts, wide temperature ranges, and charge
separation due to changes in temperature followed by freezing are some of
the factors.
Suffice it to say that there are parts of a cloud that are negative with
respect to earth and parts which are positive due to charge buildup.

The
electric fields are related to these charges and lightning, between earth
or cloud to cloud consists of high field breakdown (in steps) providing an
ionized path for a rebalance of charge

As for heat stored in a storm cloud- note that the temperature of the
known charge storage regions of thunderheads is generally in the -30
to -40C range. Thermal energy is involved- it is the driving force behind
the charge separation, but somehow, heat storage is rather questionable at
least. As for storage of electrons (and actually in some regions, storage
of positive ions) -isn't that a storage of charge? You are contradicting
yourself.

Do we know the actual mechanisms involved? To some extent we do but we
certainly cannot say "this is what happens" rather than "this may be the
main mechanism" Do we know all the mechanisms and what part each of the
known mechanisms play?- definitely not.

There is a great deal of literature with respect to lightning- read it!

"Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote news:OTefk.110294$gc5.47073 at (no spam) pd7urf2no...

It's a bit more than this simplistic and superficial approach.
To get a high voltage between two points, it is NECESSARY that there is a
charge separation.

No. Assume that you have very small cloud composed of 10 small charged
drops. Between the cloud and the Earth is some voltage. If the drops join
together the voltagr rise.
--------

This separation of charge

In contemporary science the separation of charge is used in place of
build/lowering of voltage. Current flow from high voltage to lower. Not
from more charge to less.
------------

is the cause of the voltage difference- look at the definition of
potential difference. Updrafts, wide temperature ranges, and charge
separation due to changes in temperature followed by freezing are some of
the factors.
Suffice it to say that there are parts of a cloud that are negative with
respect to earth and parts which are positive due to charge buildup.

Are you talking about voltage?
All parts of clouds have excess of electrons.
------

The
electric fields are related to these charges and lightning, between
earth or cloud to cloud consists of high field breakdown (in steps)
providing an ionized path for a rebalance of charge

Charge or voltage?
---------

As for heat stored in a storm cloud- note that the temperature of the
known charge storage regions of thunderheads is generally in the -30
to -40C range. Thermal energy is involved- it is the driving force behind
the charge separation, but somehow, heat storage is rather questionable
at least. As for storage of electrons (and actually in some regions,
storage of positive ions) -isn't that a storage of charge? You are
contradicting yourself.

During condensation of steam the heat is expeled.
-------

Do we know the actual mechanisms involved? To some extent we do but we
certainly cannot say "this is what happens" rather than "this may be the
main mechanism" Do we know all the mechanisms and what part each of the
known mechanisms play?- definitely not.

There is a great deal of literature with respect to lightning- read it!

Meteorology is a new science. Physics is older. Lightnings folows the
physics laws. Meteorologist should read physics.
-----------------

S*

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:51:51 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
wrote:
|
| "Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote
news:OTefk.110294$gc5.47073 at (no spam) pd7urf2no...
|
|> It's a bit more than this simplistic and superficial approach.
|> To get a high voltage between two points, it is NECESSARY that there is
a
|> charge separation.
|
| No. Assume that you have very small cloud composed of 10 small charged
| drops. Between the cloud and the Earth is some voltage. If the drops
join
| together the voltagr rise.

Same total charge in Coulombs. Same distance in meters. Same potentin in
Volts.
What is it that you are changing to raise the voltage?

|>This separation of charge
|
| In contemporary science the separation of charge is used in place of
| build/lowering of voltage. Current flow from high voltage to lower. Not
from
| more charge to less.

The voltage is a difference between two points.

|> is the cause of the voltage difference- look at the definition of
|> potential difference. Updrafts, wide temperature ranges, and charge
|> separation due to changes in temperature followed by freezing are some
of
|> the factors.
|> Suffice it to say that there are parts of a cloud that are negative
with
|> respect to earth and parts which are positive due to charge buildup.

|
| Are you talking about voltage?
| All parts of clouds have excess of electrons.

Maybe the whole planet has an excess.

| Meteorology is a new science. Physics is older. Lightnings folows the
| physics laws. Meteorologist should read physics.

They do.
But they use their own terminology. In physics negatively charged means

Quote:
"During thunderstorms a charge separation takes place in a cloud by a
process which is the subject of several theories but is still not fully
understood....Usually positive charges drift to the upper layer of a cloud
and the bulk of the cloud becomes negatively charged"

Also a very abbreviated non-technical summary of lightning indicated in
the following http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/primer/primer2.html.

the "positive" top of cloud to ground strokes

phil-news-nospam at (no spam) ipal.net> wrote news:g5mchp117hq at (no spam) news3.newsguy.com...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:51:51 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
wrote:
|
| "Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote
news:OTefk.110294$gc5.47073 at (no spam) pd7urf2no...
|
|> It's a bit more than this simplistic and superficial approach.
|> To get a high voltage between two points, it is NECESSARY that there
is a
|> charge separation.
|
| No. Assume that you have very small cloud composed of 10 small charged
| drops. Between the cloud and the Earth is some voltage. If the drops
join
| together the voltagr rise.

Same total charge in Coulombs. Same distance in meters. Same potentin
in Volts.
What is it that you are changing to raise the voltage?

The ratio Q/C
In physics is the equation: C = Q/V. So we have:
1. For 10 drops: Let assume that the voltage on each is 1 V and Q is 1
electron and C is 1,
2. For one large drop: V = Q/C but now Q is 10 electrons and C is
proportional to the new radius of large drop. The new radius is 10^-3
bigger so the C also. In rsult we have: V = !0/10^-3 = 100V. I have used
the theoretical equations. In reality is 10V.
-------------

|>This separation of charge
|
| In contemporary science the separation of charge is used in place of
| build/lowering of voltage. Current flow from high voltage to lower. Not
from
| more charge to less.

The voltage is a difference between two points.

The second is the Earth. But you can have many charged particles in the
air with the same voltage. If the voltage is diferent current or sparks
start between them.
-----------

|> is the cause of the voltage difference- look at the definition of
|> potential difference. Updrafts, wide temperature ranges, and charge
|> separation due to changes in temperature followed by freezing are some
of
|> the factors.
|> Suffice it to say that there are parts of a cloud that are negative
with
|> respect to earth and parts which are positive due to charge buildup.

It is impossible. All parts are negative but the voltage may be diffrent.
---------

|
| Are you talking about voltage?
| All parts of clouds have excess of electrons.

Maybe the whole planet has an excess.

Without any doubts.
Or the whole solar system. Or ...

| Meteorology is a new science. Physics is older. Lightnings folows the
| physics laws. Meteorologist should read physics.

They do.
But they use their own terminology. In physics negatively charged means
excess of electrons. Positively deficit. In a cloud no drops with deficit
of electrons.
S*
-------------

"Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote news:Abzfk.8941$nD.5060 at (no spam) pd7urf1no...

Quote:
"During thunderstorms a charge separation takes place in a cloud by a
process which is the subject of several theories but is still not fully
understood....Usually positive charges drift to the upper layer of a
cloud and the bulk of the cloud becomes negatively charged"

What means "positive charges"?

Also a very abbreviated non-technical summary of lightning indicated in
the following http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/primer/primer2.html.

Look than in page 3: http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/primer/primer3.html

There is the sketch in "The global electric circuit"
You can see that at fair weather electrons migrate up (small arrows
represets currents - electrons move in opposite direction). They are
atached to H2O. The voltage is low because the aggregates of H2O molecules
are small.
After condensation the voltage arises and the slectrons are send to places
where the voltage is lower.
--------

The sentence: "Present measurements indicate that an average of almost 1
ampere of current flows into the stratosphere during the active phase of a
typical thunderstorm" cannot be true. Storm cloud send electrons in all
directions.e Global Electric Circuit.
----------

the "positive" top of cloud to ground strokes

Positive strokes are inter-clouds where the Earth is the intermediary.
----------

I am not interesting in details. "The global electric circuit" is enough
for me.
----------

So, the group of droplets has a greater capacitance to ground than your
single large drop.

The original total capacitance of the separated drops depends on their
positions- with respect to each other and with respect to ground or
whatever is being used as a reference- this is something that you have
entirely ignored.

You are trying to compare a single large drop with 10 electrons to
a single small drop of 1 electron. and haven't even got the math right.
Meaningless!
I was in a hurry. The 100V is for 1000 drops. But I do not know if the

. What becomes important in breakdown (, is not the total voltage to
ground but the high fields in the vicinity of this large charge.

---------
---------
You say it is not possible but it has been found by measurements that
there are regions of positive charge not just different amounts of
negative charges. There is theory backed by experiment that gives at least
one mechanism for this. In addition, there is solid data that some
lightning strokes originate in regions of positive charge. I'll stick
with what is known rather than what you say is not possible.

---------
-------------
The references that I have given are physics and engineering references-
not meteorologists ' terminology. Consider a droplet that is being swept
up and cooled - there is a difference in mobility between the H+ ions and
the OH- ions in the drop. Suffice it to say that a supercooled droplet may
suddenly freeze (same as water in a supercooled stream can suddenly freeze
from the bottom) and the outer and lighter shards are + and are swept
upward faster and further than the heavier -ve core. Whether this is the
actual mechanism or some other mechanism occurs - there do exist regions
of positive charge (not less negative charge) - as you would know if you
sat down and read some of the technical literature with regard to
lightning. A review of electrostatics might also help. In other words
take time to learn more about the subject before making patently incorrect
statements.

----------
Horsefeathers!
However you are now admitting that positive strokes exist.

------------

I am not interesting in details. "The global electric circuit" is enough
for me.
----------
You claim a flaw in the global circuit model but then it is good enough
for you. In other words, you are happier being ignorant. Why?