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Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:48 pm

Guest

Our measurements are not exact
Our real world math is not exact
And our physics is not exact

Sue......

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:57 pm

Guest

On Jun 21, 11:35 pm, "Spaceman" <space... at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh>
wrote:

Quote:

Sue... wrote:

He has curved lines for the curvature on Earth that he
is flying over..

Neither intrepid traveler is concerned with the curvature of the earth
(The pilot can fly if he reaches the edge.
The taxi driver is big enough
to fend off the dragons that live there. )

The pilot has curved lines as projections of a compass rose.
http://www.engj.ulst.ac.uk/sidk/graph/polar.png

You are arguing that the pilot's map is inferior because
of its curved lines.

You appear an ignorant fool doing so.

Sue...

Nick

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:01 pm

Joined: 17 Apr 2005 Posts: 1851

On Jun 21, 7:56 pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:

Quote:

mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote innews:e4659418-94f3-4ea8-817b-10f442fa0291 at (no spam) u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

On Jun 21, 7:20 pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:
mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote
innews:7ee633c1-769a-4fb8-a24f-5630
b257b... at (no spam) s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com:

On Jun 21, 11:47 am, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:
mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote
innews:4e556fc3-cbfb-41e2-95b8-6394
16ca8... at (no spam) r37g2000prm.googlegroups.com:

On Jun 21, 6:09ÿam, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:
mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote in
news:4a9a389b-ee10-425b-aa84-
d55a02d7c... at (no spam) f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

Our measurements are not exact

That's why we use statistical techniques to determine our
measurement error. Tycho Brahe intoduced the concept beofre
1600. Do try to keep up.

Our real world math is not exact

Mathematics *is* exact.

Not the Calculus of real world problems or curves. Only the
calculus for polynomial functions.

The mathematics is exact. Just because you can't come up with a
clean rational number as a solution is irrelevant.
The solution doesn't become exact because you cannot hone in
infinitely close which is to say you cannot make the infinite
calculations required for exactitude.

Mitch Raemsch

Nevertheless, the mathematics is exact. Getting a transendental like
pi as a solution *is* and exact solution. And in cases where no
solution is possibe, a proof of that is again a definitive, exact
answer.

Why do you argue that the mathematical process is exact? Exact in what
way?
The solution is the end of the mathematic process and it is not exact
in the cases I have described.

Mitch Raemsch

Because you are wrong. Take a simple quadratic equation. If you get
(-2+-sqrt(13))/2, that is the true, exact solution. It is also an
irrational number, and cannot be expressed as a decimal or rational
number. Likewise, if you get (-2+-sqrt(-13))/2, there is no real number
solution, and that is the true, exact solution. If your application
admits complex solutions, then the true, exact solution is a complex
number with an irrational component.

--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA

He wears his faith but as the fashion of his hat.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616),
"Much Ado about Nothing", Act 1 scene 1- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not talking quadratic equation but differentiation and
integration for real world curves or problems. These are never exact
because you cannot hone in a infinite amount of times to achieve
exactitude. But for polynomial functions the math is exact; the
infinitesimal is zero. That the real world math isn't needs to be
accepted for what it is: an approximation.

Mitch Raemsch

Sue......

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:23 pm

Guest

On Jun 22, 12:06 am, "Spaceman" <space... at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh>
wrote:

Quote:

Sue... wrote:
On Jun 21, 11:35 pm, "Spaceman" <space... at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh
wrote:
Sue... wrote:

He has curved lines for the curvature on Earth that he
is flying over..

Neither intrepid traveler is concerned with the curvature of the earth
(The pilot can fly if he reaches the edge.
The taxi driver is big enough
to fend off the dragons that live there. )

The pilot has curved lines as projections of a compass rose.
http://www.engj.ulst.ac.uk/sidk/graph/polar.png

You are arguing that the pilot's map is inferior because
of its curved lines.

I am not doing such at all.
I am saying the shortest distance between two points is
a straight line.

Then stop babbling about rubber rulers.

Quote:

The pilot has curved lines because you can not place a
spherical map on a flat surface without curving the lines.
You have no clue about such huh?

Do you belive that is why a compass rose is round ?
http://www.engj.ulst.ac.uk/sidk/graph/polar.png

Quote:

You appear an ignorant fool doing so.

Not only do you appear like a fool, you are proving it
by backing up a curved line being the shortest distance
between two points.
Do you actually think the shortest distance between two points
is a curved line?

I will give you a real example later.
Presently you are acknowledging no equivalence
between a sheet of rectangular paper and a
sheet of polar paper so I'll save the story for
the kid next door.

Sue...

Quote:

--
James M Driscoll Jr
Spaceman

Sanforized...

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:45 pm

Guest

Spacedoutman complained:

Quote:

Sanforized wrote:

Spacedoutman wrote:

Spacedoutman wrote:

Sanforized wrote:

snipped

BTW: Do you actually think we measured the distance of Earth
to the Sun by using a curved line?

Start with the concept that there is no fixed
distance between the earth and the sun.

Already know that, but there is a fixed orbit.

You haven't a bloody clue.

snip rest of crap

Sanforized...

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:48 pm

Guest

Sue... wrote:

Quote:

On Jun 21, 4:08 pm, "Spaceman" <space... at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh
wrote:

Sheesh!
You should stop using your "curved straight edge".

A taxi driver goes
north on Church
west on Market
south on Waterford
west on Mullberry.
He has a map with straight lines on the x and y axis.

An aeroplane pilot flies 2 minutes on heading 280
and achives the same displacement.

You are complaining because the aeroplane pilot has
curved lines on his map and you look real ignorant
doing it.

Sue...

There's no arguing with a flatlander.

Spaceman...

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:50 pm

Guest

Sanforized wrote:

Quote:

You haven't a bloody clue.

My snot that I just blew out has more of a clue than you do.
What do you do for a living?
Draw curved lines on the underneath of highway bridges
and supports?

--
James M Driscoll Jr
Spaceman

Spaceman...

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:52 pm

Guest

Sanforized wrote:

Quote:

There's no arguing with a flatlander.

There is nothing flat about my thinking moron
I am thinking in 3D and for some reason
you can only think in flat bent space.
I feel sorry for you really.
Maybe some day you will wake up and
learn why people build tunnels.
but sadly, you probably think tunnels
are there only to keep the rain off the cars.

--
James M Driscoll Jr
Spaceman

Enkidu...

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:56 pm

Guest

mitch.nicolas.raemsch at (no spam) gmail.com wrote in
news:e4659418-94f3-4ea8-817b-10f442fa0291 at (no spam) u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

Quote:

On Jun 21, 7:20 pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:
mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote
innews:7ee633c1-769a-4fb8-a24f-5630
b257b402 at (no spam) s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com:

On Jun 21, 11:47 am, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:
mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote
innews:4e556fc3-cbfb-41e2-95b8-6394
16ca8... at (no spam) r37g2000prm.googlegroups.com:

On Jun 21, 6:09ÿam, Enkidu <fox_rgf... at (no spam) trashmail.net> wrote:
mitch.nicolas.raem... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote in
news:4a9a389b-ee10-425b-aa84-
d55a02d7c... at (no spam) f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

Our measurements are not exact

That's why we use statistical techniques to determine our
measurement error. Tycho Brahe intoduced the concept beofre
1600. Do try to keep up.

Our real world math is not exact

Mathematics *is* exact.

Not the Calculus of real world problems or curves. Only the
calculus for polynomial functions.

The mathematics is exact. Just because you can't come up with a
clean rational number as a solution is irrelevant.
The solution doesn't become exact because you cannot hone in
infinitely close which is to say you cannot make the infinite
calculations required for exactitude.

Mitch Raemsch

Nevertheless, the mathematics is exact. Getting a transendental like
pi as a solution *is* and exact solution. And in cases where no
solution is possibe, a proof of that is again a definitive, exact
answer.

Why do you argue that the mathematical process is exact? Exact in what
way?
The solution is the end of the mathematic process and it is not exact
in the cases I have described.

Mitch Raemsch

Because you are wrong. Take a simple quadratic equation. If you get
(-2+-sqrt(13))/2, that is the true, exact solution. It is also an
irrational number, and cannot be expressed as a decimal or rational
number. Likewise, if you get (-2+-sqrt(-13))/2, there is no real number
solution, and that is the true, exact solution. If your application
admits complex solutions, then the true, exact solution is a complex
number with an irrational component.

--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA

He wears his faith but as the fashion of his hat.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616),
"Much Ado about Nothing", Act 1 scene 1

Spaceman...

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:06 pm

Guest

Sue... wrote:

Quote:

On Jun 21, 11:35 pm, "Spaceman" <space... at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh
wrote:
Sue... wrote:

He has curved lines for the curvature on Earth that he
is flying over..

Neither intrepid traveler is concerned with the curvature of the earth
(The pilot can fly if he reaches the edge.
The taxi driver is big enough
to fend off the dragons that live there. )

The pilot has curved lines as projections of a compass rose.
http://www.engj.ulst.ac.uk/sidk/graph/polar.png

You are arguing that the pilot's map is inferior because
of its curved lines.

I am not doing such at all.
I am saying the shortest distance between two points is
a straight line.
The pilot has curved lines because you can not place a
spherical map on a flat surface without curving the lines.
You have no clue about such huh?

Quote:

You appear an ignorant fool doing so.

Not only do you appear like a fool, you are proving it
by backing up a curved line being the shortest distance
between two points.
Do you actually think the shortest distance between two points
is a curved line?

--
James M Driscoll Jr
Spaceman

Dante Alighieri...

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:42 am

Guest

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:54:08 +0100, "Androcles" <Headmaster at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics> wrote:

**> BUT! Apples are not identical.

Mathematics ? ? ?
Reality ? ? ?

I have two apples.
Exactly two.
One is a McIntosh, one is a Golden,
but I still have exactly two apples.

You have two apples.
But not exactly two?
Because the two apples are not identical?

I have two apples while you have none?
Your loss, my gain.

Uhhhhh, I just ate 4 apples.
The two I had and the two you did not have.
Mmmmmmmmh, one of the apples you
did not have was pear shaped and tasted
like a pear.
Turns out that you had exactly one apple
and exactlly one pear.

You don't think ... POOF ! !
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

The Ghost In The Machine...

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:02 pm

Guest

In sci.physics.relativity, Spaceman
<spaceman at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh>
wrote
on Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:05:12 -0400
<X72dndGbBfcqXMDVnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d at (no spam) comcast.com>:

Quote:

Sanforized wrote:
Spaceman wrote:

Spaceman wrote:

Sanforized wrote:

snipped

BTW: Do you actually think we measured the distance of Earth
to the Sun by using a curved line?

Start with the concept that there is no fixed
distance between the earth and the sun.

Already know that, but there is a fixed orbit.

The Earth's orbit is precessing and flexing,
in various interesting ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

Quote:

and also a fixed distance at any point you would want
to measure from.

Perhaps to the Earth-Sun barycentre, but the surface of
the Sun is a bit tenuous, as the Sun is a hot ball of gas.

Quote:

I know you cannot comprehend the concept of
curved space so there's no point in continuing
with this particular line of discussion.

So you actually think it is curved.
ROFLOL.

Depends on how one looks at it. If one embeds a curved
space (such as the surface of a 4-dimensional hypersphere)
inside of a larger Euclidean space, one has changed the
problem admittedly, but the embedding space is no longer
curved, though it also has more dimensions.

The standard metaphor in fact is a dimpled rubber sheet,
representing the dimensions we can see; it is embedded in
a larger-dimensional space of its own which is Euclidean.

But *within* the sheet, things can curve easily.

--
#191, ewill3 at (no spam) earthlink.net
Warning: This encrypted signature is a dangerous munition.
Please notify the US government immediately upon reception.
0000 0000 0000 0000 0001 0000 0000 0000 ...
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

The Ghost In The Machine...

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:31 pm

Guest

In sci.physics, Spaceman
<spaceman at (no spam) yourclockmalfunctioned.duh>
wrote
on Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:06:56 -0400
<EK-dnUpH4cStTcDVnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d at (no spam) comcast.com>:

Quote:

This is a little misleading. One can, of course, take
it at two levels; either it's a representation of polar
coordinates on a flat space, or it's a representation of
a sphere's coordinates shown on a flat space. (In the
latter case, it appears to project from the North Pole to
about latitude 40 degrees, though it's sufficiently abstract
to also be usable in the Southern Hemisphere.)

Quote:

You are arguing that the pilot's map is inferior because
of its curved lines.

I am not doing such at all.
I am saying the shortest distance between two points is
a straight line.

In the case of a flight path there's the little problem
that the straight line path from, say, Juneau, Alaska, US
(58Â°21'49.46"N, 134Â°34'19.38"W) to Sapporo, Hokkaido,
Japan (43Â° 3'49.58"N,141Â°21'28.92"E) [+] would require a
rather deep tunnel, even though it is in fact the shortest
path. Most pilots prefer to stay in the atmosphere.

Ergo, the path as viewed in 3-dimensional space would be
an arc of a great circle [*]. I'm not sure what it will
look like on the aforementioned polar plot but doubt it
will be straight. (I'm not even sure it will be a circle,
but it will be curved.)

Quote:

The pilot has curved lines because you can not place a
spherical map on a flat surface without curving the lines.
You have no clue about such huh?

The pilot is not flying a straight line.

Quote:

[+] coordinates courtesy of GoogleEarth. The precision
indicated of 1/100th of an arc-second is an area about
1 foot across, which probably means the official city
center, or very near thereto.

[*] not exactly an arc, though, as the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

--
#191, ewill3 at (no spam) earthlink.net
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #40490127:
for(; Wink

;
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Ben Kaufman...

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:39 pm

Guest

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:48:27 -0700 (PDT), mitch.nicolas.raemsch at (no spam) gmail.com wrote:

Quote:

Our measurements are not exact
Our real world math is not exact
And our physics is not exact

But you scored exactly a 2 on the troll meter.

Ben

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