Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Matt wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:

feed an engine. However the dangers of hydrogen aside he was also
transporting a dangerous solution for a passenger vehicle that
was a lye solution. Can you see the hazard when a collision
sundered the tank and a strong lye solution splashed out onto a
city street?

Do you suppose a pint of lye is more dangerous than 15 gallons of
gasoline? Have some perspective. And what about the sulfuric
acid in the batter?

The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It occurs
but rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a gasoline
fire but fatalities from such a fire are rare save for the
execution of a person and an induced fire to hide the evidence. But
what can be done when a lye solution is splattered over the road
and sidewalks? Batteries can be split and sulfuric acid released
but those batteries are quite hardy and don't even require a metal
reinforced container. Usually the battery splits and leaks out the
acid in situ. And there isn't a great deal of it in any event. Not
quite what would happen when you used water and an active metal to
produce hydrogen and a strong base as well. Much more lye or
similar base solution would be found in a vehicle using such as a
source for making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared to the small
amount of sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.

Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such your
argument is found wanting.

FK

If you want to get rid of the lye just wash it off with vinegar, or
hose it down with CO2 etc.


Yeah, we'll have big tanks of vinegar stationed on every street
corner to wash off all those pedestrians and auto passengers before
their skin falls off from lye attack from a street collision.
FK

Just like we have for washing that gasoline from their bodies now?


In case you don't know this. Gasoline getting splashed on you is
uncomfortable and may sting a bit, BUT simply wash it off and you will
be fine.

As opposed to the fact that if you get a bath in Lye you will look a lot
like the wicked witch and you can literally watch as your skin and flesh
melt off from the reaction of the Lye on your skin. It is a highly
concentrated and powerful caustic compound.

BIG difference.

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Matt wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:

feed an engine. However the dangers of hydrogen aside he was also
transporting a dangerous solution for a passenger vehicle that
was a lye solution. Can you see the hazard when a collision
sundered the tank and a strong lye solution splashed out onto a
city street?

Do you suppose a pint of lye is more dangerous than 15 gallons of
gasoline? Have some perspective. And what about the sulfuric
acid in the batter?

The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It occurs
but rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a gasoline
fire but fatalities from such a fire are rare save for the
execution of a person and an induced fire to hide the evidence. But
what can be done when a lye solution is splattered over the road
and sidewalks? Batteries can be split and sulfuric acid released
but those batteries are quite hardy and don't even require a metal
reinforced container. Usually the battery splits and leaks out the
acid in situ. And there isn't a great deal of it in any event. Not
quite what would happen when you used water and an active metal to
produce hydrogen and a strong base as well. Much more lye or
similar base solution would be found in a vehicle using such as a
source for making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared to the small
amount of sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.

Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such your
argument is found wanting.

FK

If you want to get rid of the lye just wash it off with vinegar, or
hose it down with CO2 etc.


Yeah, we'll have big tanks of vinegar stationed on every street
corner to wash off all those pedestrians and auto passengers before
their skin falls off from lye attack from a street collision.
FK

Just like we have for washing that gasoline from their bodies now?


Having spilled gasoline on my hands on a few occasions I know that it
evaporates quite rapidly. It is not a good thing to do as some is
absorbed into the body but in those rare cases when a person has his
clothes soaked in gasoline it is just a matter of keeping them away from
a flame. Never offer a cigarette to a person who has just been doused
with gasoline. In other words we leave this prospect to be dealt with by
emergency personnel. But waiting around for the emergency people to
arrive while soaked in sodium hydroxide solution is not quite the same
as keeping away from flames while waiting for them to arrive and save
you from your dousing in gasoline. Very different degree of hazard indeed.
FK

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:



Fred Kasner wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Matt wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:

feed an engine. However the dangers of hydrogen aside he was also
transporting a dangerous solution for a passenger vehicle that was
a lye solution. Can you see the hazard when a collision sundered
the tank and a strong lye solution splashed out onto a city street?

Do you suppose a pint of lye is more dangerous than 15 gallons of
gasoline?  Have some perspective.  And what about the sulfuric acid
in the batter?

The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It occurs
but rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a gasoline fire
but fatalities from such a fire are rare save for the execution of a
person and an induced fire to hide the evidence. But what can be
done when a lye solution is splattered over the road and sidewalks?
Batteries can be split and sulfuric acid released but those
batteries are quite hardy and don't even require a metal reinforced
container. Usually the battery splits and leaks out the acid in
situ. And there isn't a great deal of it in any event. Not quite
what would happen when you used water and an active metal to produce
hydrogen and a strong base as well. Much more lye or similar base
solution would be found in a vehicle using such as a source for
making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared to the small amount of
sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.

Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such your
argument is found wanting.

FK

If you want to get rid of the lye just wash it off with vinegar, or
hose it down with CO2 etc.

Yeah, we'll have big tanks of vinegar stationed on every street corner
to wash off all those pedestrians and auto passengers before their
skin falls off from lye attack from a street collision.
FK

Just like we have for washing that gasoline from their bodies now?

Having spilled gasoline on my hands on a few occasions I know that it
evaporates quite rapidly. It is not a good thing to do as some is
absorbed into the body but in those rare cases when a person has his
clothes soaked in gasoline it is just a matter of keeping them away from
a flame. Never offer a cigarette to a person who has just been doused
with gasoline. In other words we leave this prospect to be dealt with by
emergency personnel. But waiting around for the emergency people to
arrive while soaked in sodium hydroxide solution is not quite the same
as keeping away from flames while waiting for them to arrive and save
you from your dousing in gasoline. Very different degree of hazard indeed.
FK

On Jun 30, 3:01 pm, Fred Kasner <fkas... at (no spam) sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:



Fred Kasner wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Matt wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
feed an engine. However the dangers of hydrogen aside he was also
transporting a dangerous solution for a passenger vehicle that was
a lye solution. Can you see the hazard when a collision sundered
the tank and a strong lye solution splashed out onto a city street?
Do you suppose a pint of lye is more dangerous than 15 gallons of
gasoline? Have some perspective. And what about the sulfuric acid
in the batter?
The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It occurs
but rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a gasoline fire
but fatalities from such a fire are rare save for the execution of a
person and an induced fire to hide the evidence. But what can be
done when a lye solution is splattered over the road and sidewalks?
Batteries can be split and sulfuric acid released but those
batteries are quite hardy and don't even require a metal reinforced
container. Usually the battery splits and leaks out the acid in
situ. And there isn't a great deal of it in any event. Not quite
what would happen when you used water and an active metal to produce
hydrogen and a strong base as well. Much more lye or similar base
solution would be found in a vehicle using such as a source for
making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared to the small amount of
sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.
Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such your
argument is found wanting.
FK
If you want to get rid of the lye just wash it off with vinegar, or
hose it down with CO2 etc.
Yeah, we'll have big tanks of vinegar stationed on every street corner
to wash off all those pedestrians and auto passengers before their
skin falls off from lye attack from a street collision.
FK
Just like we have for washing that gasoline from their bodies now?
Having spilled gasoline on my hands on a few occasions I know that it
evaporates quite rapidly. It is not a good thing to do as some is
absorbed into the body but in those rare cases when a person has his
clothes soaked in gasoline it is just a matter of keeping them away from
a flame. Never offer a cigarette to a person who has just been doused
with gasoline. In other words we leave this prospect to be dealt with by
emergency personnel. But waiting around for the emergency people to
arrive while soaked in sodium hydroxide solution is not quite the same
as keeping away from flames while waiting for them to arrive and save
you from your dousing in gasoline. Very different degree of hazard indeed.
FK

As a teenager I worked in a filling station. One day the hose broke as
I was pumping gas, and got absolutely drenched from just above the
waist on down. It was really uncomfortable. I got out of the uniform
and put a clean one on, tried to scrub myself down in the station's
bathroom, but that was not enough- I had to go home and take a bath.
Still, never been drenched with gas except that time- never in a car
accident.

Matt wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:

feed an engine. However the dangers of hydrogen aside he was also
transporting a dangerous solution for a passenger vehicle that was a
lye solution. Can you see the hazard when a collision sundered the
tank and a strong lye solution splashed out onto a city street?

Do you suppose a pint of lye is more dangerous than 15 gallons of
gasoline? Have some perspective. And what about the sulfuric acid in
the batter?

The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It occurs but
rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a gasoline fire but
fatalities from such a fire are rare save for the execution of a person
and an induced fire to hide the evidence. But what can be done when a
lye solution is splattered over the road and sidewalks? Batteries can be
split and sulfuric acid released but those batteries are quite hardy and
don't even require a metal reinforced container. Usually the battery
splits and leaks out the acid in situ. And there isn't a great deal of
it in any event. Not quite what would happen when you used water and an
active metal to produce hydrogen and a strong base as well. Much more
lye or similar base solution would be found in a vehicle using such as a
source for making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared to the small amount of
sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.

Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such your
argument is found wanting.

FK

We are talking car crash scenarios.
What percentage of people in crashes get covered in gasoline?

Fred Kasner wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:
Matt wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote:

feed an engine. However the dangers of hydrogen aside he was
also transporting a dangerous solution for a passenger vehicle
that was a lye solution. Can you see the hazard when a collision
sundered the tank and a strong lye solution splashed out onto a
city street?

Do you suppose a pint of lye is more dangerous than 15 gallons of
gasoline? Have some perspective. And what about the sulfuric
acid in the batter?

The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It
occurs but rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a
gasoline fire but fatalities from such a fire are rare save for
the execution of a person and an induced fire to hide the
evidence. But what can be done when a lye solution is splattered
over the road and sidewalks? Batteries can be split and sulfuric
acid released but those batteries are quite hardy and don't even
require a metal reinforced container. Usually the battery splits
and leaks out the acid in situ. And there isn't a great deal of it
in any event. Not quite what would happen when you used water and
an active metal to produce hydrogen and a strong base as well.
Much more lye or similar base solution would be found in a vehicle
using such as a source for making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared
to the small amount of sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.

Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such
your argument is found wanting.

FK

If you want to get rid of the lye just wash it off with vinegar, or
hose it down with CO2 etc.


Yeah, we'll have big tanks of vinegar stationed on every street
corner to wash off all those pedestrians and auto passengers before
their skin falls off from lye attack from a street collision.
FK

Just like we have for washing that gasoline from their bodies now?


Having spilled gasoline on my hands on a few occasions I know that it
evaporates quite rapidly. It is not a good thing to do as some is
absorbed into the body but in those rare cases when a person has his
clothes soaked in gasoline it is just a matter of keeping them away
from a flame. Never offer a cigarette to a person who has just been
doused with gasoline. In other words we leave this prospect to be
dealt with by emergency personnel. But waiting around for the
emergency people to arrive while soaked in sodium hydroxide solution
is not quite the same as keeping away from flames while waiting for
them to arrive and save you from your dousing in gasoline. Very
different degree of hazard indeed.
FK

And you got this gasoline on your hands in a car crash?

Matt wrote:

... snip ...


One thing I think is true about caustic is that it doesn't cause much
immediate pain when in contact with the skin, so you may not know your
skin is turning to soapy leather or so. That can be a problem if you
touch your eyes. You are aware immediately When you get a drop of
strong sulfuric on the skin.

Other than that, I don't see much difference in degree of hazard between
a hydroxy converter and a lead-acid battery. Just douse the spill with
plenty of water.

I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.

Quantity, my boy, quantity. The amount of water carried along with the
reaction material to make hydrogen that is needed to carry a vehicle for
more than just a run to the grocery down the block is quite large.

Near
the end of the tank of water that has been converted to a concentrated
solution of something such as NaOH there is a lot of caustic there.
Whereas there is only a small amount of H2SO4 in the battery of a
automobile.

One winter, the two batteries (under the rear seat) of my MGB ruptured
and there was very little damage to the garage floor from the amount of
sulfuric acid that was released. They pool of liquid didn't even get to
the tires and attack them.

FK

As a teenager I worked in a filling station. One day the hose broke as
I was pumping gas, and got absolutely drenched from just above the
waist on down. It was really uncomfortable. I got out of the uniform
and put a clean one on, tried to scrub myself down in the station's
bathroom, but that was not enough- I had to go home and take a bath.
Still, never been drenched with gas except that time- never in a car
accident.

I had a friend who told me somehow he got a faceful when he was pumping
gas. He said it made his eyes burn like hell.

One thing I think is true about caustic is that it doesn't cause much
immediate pain when in contact with the skin, so you may not know your
skin is turning to soapy leather or so. That can be a problem if you
touch your eyes. You are aware immediately When you get a drop of
strong sulfuric on the skin.

Other than that, I don't see much difference in degree of hazard between
a hydroxy converter and a lead-acid battery. Just douse the spill with
plenty of water.

I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.

One of the worst (save burns after ignition) disasters of gasoline
dousing is the absorbtion of tetraethyl lead into the skin. The stuff is
a nasty poison. It is no longer used in the US and so we don't even have
it in the atmosphere as we used to when (C2H5)4Pb was employed years ago.

Fred Kasner wrote:

I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.
Quantity, my boy, quantity. The amount of water carried along with the
reaction material to make hydrogen that is needed to carry a vehicle for
more than just a run to the grocery down the block is quite large.

I haven't been following this thread closely. The original topic was
hydrogen-boosted combustion. Assuming you are still discussing the same thing,
the amount of water needed in a typical system that derives hydrogen from water
is about a quart per 1000 miles. How far is your grocery store?

-jim



Near
the end of the tank of water that has been converted to a concentrated
solution of something such as NaOH there is a lot of caustic there.
Whereas there is only a small amount of H2SO4 in the battery of a
automobile.

jim wrote:

Fred Kasner wrote:

I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.
Quantity, my boy, quantity. The amount of water carried along with the
reaction material to make hydrogen that is needed to carry a vehicle for
more than just a run to the grocery down the block is quite large.

I haven't been following this thread closely. The original topic was
hydrogen-boosted combustion. Assuming you are still discussing the same thing,
the amount of water needed in a typical system that derives hydrogen from water
is about a quart per 1000 miles. How far is your grocery store?

I understand that the hydrogen produced is about 1/1000 the amount of
gasoline burned.

Stoichiometry would imply that the water used is 9
times that, or around 1/100 of the gasoline burned.

So if you fill the
converter when you fill the gas tank, you would be adding say 1 1/4
pints. Maybe the converter's volume is twice that?

What is the concentration of caustic in the converter? I thought it was
rather far from saturation whereas battery acid is rather near saturation.