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Science Forum Index » Anthropology - Paleo Forum » What color were Cro Magnons?...
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| puttster... |
 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:47 pm |
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In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand. |
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| rmacfarl... |
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:46 pm |
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On May 18, 12:47 pm, puttster <oneputts... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But
since they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years
earlier, wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more
African-looking? That would give them 35,000 years and maybe
some Neandertal genes to turn white instead of only a few thousand.
I don't think you need to invoke either 35KY or any Neanderthal genes
to change colour. A 1% survival advantage is enough to take 1% of the
population to 99% in 40 generations - that's 1,000 years in human
terms.
So if 1% of the population have light skin & can go around fully
clothed in Ice Age European winters, but still produce enough Vitamin
D to avoid suffering from rickets, they could gain the 1% survival
advantage that makes the millenial difference.
Nevertheless, I agree with you, the standard iconography of white Cro-
Magnons is quite likely inaccurate (as equally are black-haired
swarthy Neanderthals). According to Stringer, the relative length of
long bones (say thigh to shin) in CMs was typical of humans living in
warm-hot tropical/equatorial zones, - in other words they were
relatively long and slender, like a Masai. Neanderthals were
relatively stocky with shins relatively shorter compared to thighs,
comparable to Inuit & other modern humans adapted to living at an an
average outdoor temperature of around ) degrees Celsius.
Stringer identified this as evidence that Cro-Magnons were recent
arrivals Out Of Africa (i.e., consistent with his preferred paradigm
of human evolution.) It led me, regrettably, to post my interpration
of the evidence in the following terms (with apologies to the memory
of Bob Marley, and Jesus Christ):
"I don't care what the white man say,
Cro-Magnon was a black man..."
Ross Macfarlane |
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| jerry warner... |
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:06 am |
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puttster wrote:
Quote: In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men,"
History-Schmistory! You mean the UFO Channel.
Nuff saide.
Quote: the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand. |
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| Paul Crowley... |
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:41 am |
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"puttster" <oneputtster at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:330200a9-4184-42d0-b760-7b9eb3e96334 at (no spam) n1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Quote: In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
Five to ten thousand years is 200 to 400
generations (at 25 years per generation).
If there are significant selective effects in
operation (and there would certainly seem
to be some) then such a time is plenty.
Quote: That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand.
Modern Englishmen are much whiter than
they would be under the conditions endured
by their ancestors of 10 kya. The latter spent
almost all of their time outside in the sun, and
were naked, or virtually so,
An 'extra white' gene has been found in
European populations, apparently arising
between 12 kya and 6 kya. This was probably
associated with the introduction of some
clothing.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5823/364a
Paul. |
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| puttster... |
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:07 am |
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On May 18, 3:41 am, "Paul Crowley"
<slkwuoiutiuytciu... at (no spam) slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote:
Quote: "puttster" <oneputts... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:330200a9-4184-42d0-b760-7b9eb3e96334 at (no spam) n1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
Five to ten thousand years is 200 to 400
generations (at 25 years per generation).
If there are significant selective effects in
operation (and there would certainly seem
to be some) then such a time is plenty.
That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand.
Modern Englishmen are much whiter than
they would be under the conditions endured
by their ancestors of 10 kya. The latter spent
almost all of their time outside in the sun, and
were naked, or virtually so,
An 'extra white' gene has been found in
European populations, apparently arising
between 12 kya and 6 kya. This was probably
associated with the introduction of some
clothing.http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5823/364a
Paul.
It has been a while for me visiting this group. Still got AAT, I see,
and it looks like a lot more wackos are camped out here than there
used to be. Still, it is nice to see you are still here Paul, a long
time defender of the science.
Tom |
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| Daryl Krupa |
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:11 pm |
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Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 1118
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On May 17, 8:47 pm, puttster <oneputts... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand.
lightweightduffertooldude:
The ancestors of Cro-Magnon people left Africa
twice as long ago as that 35,000-year-old age.
In between Africa and France (which the home of
the Cro-Magnon cave people), there is
the Near East, the Balkans, and south-central Europe.
None of thwese places is known for being inhabited by
people who are particularly "African-looking",
whatever that means.
For that matter, the Africans at the exit point to
the rest of the world don't look particularly "African",
either. For example, Gamaal Abdel Nasser.
Or how about Haile Selassie?
Julius K. Nyerere?
Robert Mugabe?
Nelson Mandela?
P. K. Botha?
Ian Smith?
And lastly, but not least,
the Legless Wonder himself,
Kikuyu and son of a Kikuyu,
the founder of the major Opposition party in Kenya, and
at one time so deeply embedded in Africa that
he is sometimes known as the Legless Wonder:
http://www.glpinc.org/Classroom%20Activities/Kenya%20Articles/People/r_leakey.jpg
Looks rather like the actors in your costume drama, nu?
Seeing as he is now head of Transparency International
(or, maybe, not seeing ... ), he is, in fact, about
as colourless an African as one might imagine.
Beware of presumptions hidden in your chosen terms.
- Daryl Krupa |
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| Lee Olsen... |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:36 am |
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| Daryl Krupa |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:59 am |
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Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 1118
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| Lee Olsen... |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:26 am |
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On May 19, 9:59 am, Daryl Krupa <icycal... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Daryl: "The ancestors of Cro-Magnon people left Africa
twice as long ago as that 35,000-year-old age."
Right, but the situation is actually worse than that.
Trinkaus (2005, table 2) Using "directly" dated skeletal material
(the preferred method) they get:
"Cro-Magnon 27,680+/-270"
Table 3 lists 10 key Hss skeletons, formerly thought to be early
modern, have now been redated to mid-Holocene.
So the bottom line is the "terminal phase" of Aurignacian is all that
is known for sure.
Early Modern Humans
Erik Trinkaus
Annual Review of Anthropology; 2005; 34, Social Science Module
pg. 207 |
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| John Roth... |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:29 pm |
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On May 18, 2:41 am, "Paul Crowley"
<slkwuoiutiuytciu... at (no spam) slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote:
Quote: "puttster" <oneputts... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:330200a9-4184-42d0-b760-7b9eb3e96334 at (no spam) n1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
Five to ten thousand years is 200 to 400
generations (at 25 years per generation).
If there are significant selective effects in
operation (and there would certainly seem
to be some) then such a time is plenty.
That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand.
Modern Englishmen are much whiter than
they would be under the conditions endured
by their ancestors of 10 kya. The latter spent
almost all of their time outside in the sun, and
were naked, or virtually so,
An 'extra white' gene has been found in
European populations, apparently arising
between 12 kya and 6 kya. This was probably
associated with the introduction of some
clothing.http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5823/364a
Paul.
You might want to check Razib's Gene Expression blogs (there are two
of them). He's been covering the genetics of skin color for quite some
time. At this time, everything seems to point to the Caucasian white
skin color having arrived 6 to 10 mya ago, possibly correlated with
the introduction of agriculture and a consequent decline of vitamin D
from foodstuffs. Paler skin in East Asia has completely different
genetics.
http://www.gnxp.com/
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/
John Roth
John Roth |
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| caldervangogh at (no spam) gmail.com... |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:22 pm |
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On May 19, 6:29 pm, John Roth <johnro... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On May 18, 2:41 am, "Paul Crowley"
slkwuoiutiuytciu... at (no spam) slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote:
"puttster" <oneputts... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:330200a9-4184-42d0-b760-7b9eb3e96334 at (no spam) n1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
In the History Channel's "Clash of the Cave Men," the modern men
showing up in Europe in 35,000 were as white as Englishman. But since
they most likely left Africa only 5 or 10 thousand years earlier,
wouldn't it be more likely that they would be more African-looking?
Five to ten thousand years is 200 to 400
generations (at 25 years per generation).
If there are significant selective effects in
operation (and there would certainly seem
to be some) then such a time is plenty.
That would give them 35,000 years and maybe some Neandertal genes to
turn white instead of only a few thousand.
Modern Englishmen are much whiter than
they would be under the conditions endured
by their ancestors of 10 kya. The latter spent
almost all of their time outside in the sun, and
were naked, or virtually so,
An 'extra white' gene has been found in
European populations, apparently arising
between 12 kya and 6 kya. This was probably
associated with the introduction of some
clothing.http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5823/364a
Paul.
You might want to check Razib's Gene Expression blogs (there are two
of them). He's been covering the genetics of skin color for quite some
time. At this time, everything seems to point to the Caucasian white
skin color having arrived 6 to 10 mya ago, possibly correlated with
the introduction of agriculture and a consequent decline of vitamin D
from foodstuffs. Paler skin in East Asia has completely different
genetics.
http://www.gnxp.com/http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/
John Roth
John Roth- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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