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Science Forum Index » Physics - Research Forum » Foundations of STR #1: On the alternative formulations...
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| Vonny N.... |
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:51 am |
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I have quite a few questions resulting from my recent foray into the
mathematical and conceptual foundations of STR. I realise there is a
Google group devoted to this subject but, to be frank, there are only
one or two minds on that forum whose answers I have come to respect,
and it is not always easy to get their attention, so I'm seeking
'kindred minds' here. I hope it's the right place.
In STR a tensor is generally introduced in one of two ways: either as
an indexed family of components that transform in a certain way under
Lorentz transformations, or as a multilinear form from several copies
of the underlying vector space and its dual into the reals.
I am confused about the presumed equivalence of these two definitions.
In particular, the 'multilinear algebra' approach (my personal
preference) makes no mention whatsoever of a Lorentz transformation.
Wouldn't an equivalent 'coordinatised' definition therefore need to
assert the behaviour of tensor components under *any* linear
transformation whatsoever?
My confusion deepens when I think about the logical precedence of the
Lorentz transformation in either scheme, for isn't such a
transformation defined in terms of its behaviour with respect to the
underlying metric tensor? And doesn't this mean that we are then
defining the concept of a tensor in terms of an object which is itself
defined in terms of a tensor?
I really want to master this subject deeply, but as you can see, I
have become confused on merely opening the front door.
Vonny N. |
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| Oh No... |
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:22 pm |
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Thus spake Vonny N. <vonnyn at (no spam) gmail.com>
Quote: I have quite a few questions resulting from my recent foray into the
mathematical and conceptual foundations of STR. I realise there is a
Google group devoted to this subject but, to be frank, there are only
one or two minds on that forum whose answers I have come to respect,
and it is not always easy to get their attention, so I'm seeking
'kindred minds' here. I hope it's the right place.
In STR a tensor is generally introduced in one of two ways: either as
an indexed family of components that transform in a certain way under
Lorentz transformations, or as a multilinear form from several copies
of the underlying vector space and its dual into the reals.
I am confused about the presumed equivalence of these two definitions.
In particular, the 'multilinear algebra' approach (my personal
preference) makes no mention whatsoever of a Lorentz transformation.
Wouldn't an equivalent 'coordinatised' definition therefore need to
assert the behaviour of tensor components under *any* linear
transformation whatsoever?
Yes. A proper treatment should do that. May I refer you to
http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/IntroductionToTensors
where I introduce tensors in this way and discuss the behaviour of
tensors under coordinate transformation.
Quote:
My confusion deepens when I think about the logical precedence of the
Lorentz transformation in either scheme, for isn't such a
transformation defined in terms of its behaviour with respect to the
underlying metric tensor? And doesn't this mean that we are then
defining the concept of a tensor in terms of an object which is itself
defined in terms of a tensor?
Lorentz transformation is best defined as a coordinate transformation.
This can be done without reference to the metric.
I prefer to introduce the metric as an index raising and lowering
operator,
http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/IntroductionToVectorSpace#TheMetric
and then prove its tensor properties.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)
http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex |
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| Henrique de Andrade Gomes... |
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:06 pm |
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On May 15, 10:51 pm, "Vonny N." <von... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: In STR a tensor is generally introduced in one of two ways: either as
an indexed family of components that transform in a certain way under
Lorentz transformations, or as a multilinear form from several copies
of the underlying vector space and its dual into the reals.
Yes, the latter is the proper way to define a tensor, which depends
only on the differential structure of the manifold and from which the
transformation properties arise naturally, without need for
mentioning the Lorentz transformations. Lorentz transformations arise
with more structure, as you said, when one inputs a metric on the
underlying manifold. Then one has the concept of an isometry under the
action of (a certain representation of) the symmetry group, in this
case, the Lorentz. Finding the duals with respect to this metric
determines the representation of the group of isometries on the dual
vectors. The confusion sometimes arise due to the triviality of the
Minkowski spacetime, this is one case where I believe a bird's eye
view makes things clearer. Generalize and you shall see. |
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| Oh No... |
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:43 am |
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Thus spake Henrique de Andrade Gomes <gomes.ha at (no spam) gmail.com>
Quote: On May 15, 10:51 pm, "Vonny N." <von... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
In STR a tensor is generally introduced in one of two ways: either as
an indexed family of components that transform in a certain way under
Lorentz transformations, or as a multilinear form from several copies
of the underlying vector space and its dual into the reals.
Yes, the latter is the proper way to define a tensor, which depends
only on the differential structure of the manifold and from which the
transformation properties arise naturally, without need for
mentioning the Lorentz transformations. Lorentz transformations arise
with more structure, as you said, when one inputs a metric on the
underlying manifold. Then one has the concept of an isometry under the
action of (a certain representation of) the symmetry group, in this
case, the Lorentz. Finding the duals with respect to this metric
determines the representation of the group of isometries on the dual
vectors. The confusion sometimes arise due to the triviality of the
Minkowski spacetime, this is one case where I believe a bird's eye
view makes things clearer. Generalize and you shall see.
You are strictly talking here of tensor fields. Many treatments of
general relativity do not distinguish clearly, and refer to tensor
fields simply as tensors. I believe this lack of clarity causes some
confusion and makes the subject more difficult than it should be.
Actually a tensor is not defined on a manifold, but simply from a vector
space. One finds tensor fields after defining a vector space (the
tangent space) at each point of the manifold.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)
http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex |
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| Hendrik Boom... |
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:01 am |
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On Thu, 15 May 2008 21:51:45 +0000, Vonny N. wrote:
Quote:
I am confused about the presumed equivalence of these two definitions.
In particular, the 'multilinear algebra' approach (my personal
preference) makes no mention whatsoever of a Lorentz transformation.
Wouldn't an equivalent 'coordinatised' definition therefore need to
assert the behaviour of tensor components under *any* linear
transformation whatsoever?
The concept of tensor is indeed independent of a metric, as you see from
the formulation as multilinear forms. If you coordinatize a tensor, you
get certain transformation rules under arbitrary nonsingular linear
transformations of the coordinate system. These transformation rules can
also be used to define tensors (an old-fashioned approach dating back to
the days of the Theory of Invariants).
The metric only comes into it when you start raising and lowering indices.
I have no idea why anyone would define the concept of tensor in terms of
Lorentz trransformations (except maybe that those are the only ones of
interest to him). I don't see any reason why the behaviour under Lorentz
transformations would imply proper behaviour under other
nonsingular linear transformations.
Quote: My confusion deepens when I think about the logical precedence of the
Lorentz transformation in either scheme, for isn't such a
transformation defined in terms of its behaviour with respect to the
underlying metric tensor? And doesn't this mean that we are then
defining the concept of a tensor in terms of an object which is itself
defined in terms of a tensor?
I really want to master this subject deeply, but as you can see, I
have become confused on merely opening the front door.
You are having the right confusions. You seem to understand the logical
basics better than whatever book you are following.
I learned my basics about tensors from
(1) Tensor analysis, by Barry Spain (an old-fashiened style)
(2) a final chapter or appendix in Auslander's book in Differentiable
Manifolds (a more modern style)
These citations are from memory, so they may not be quite correct. I may
have misremembered names or exact titles
And, by the way, what does the abbreviation STR stand for?
-- hendrik |
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