In article
2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44... at (no spam) u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,



 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:00 pm, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby

In article
2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44... at (no spam) u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,



 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:00 pm, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby

On Jun 22, 8:57 pm, The Webby <tmjiatroepide... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:



In article
2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44... at (no spam) u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:00 pm, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby

Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you
think its best I dont know I understand.  Is there any good that could
come
from me getting the imaging?

In article
tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062... at (no spam) news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
 The Webby <tmjiatroepide... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:



In article
2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44... at (no spam) u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 22, 7:00 pm, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby

P.S.  I am not giving "medical advice".  I'm just giving you friendly
advice.  There isn't any sort of emergency surgery to be done upon your
jaw joints that *would not need additional studies and carefully thought
out options* to be offered to you.

Keep up the swimming; find a pool in addition to the ocean.  It's good
for you. (I was a competitive rough-water swimmer at age 11 (just turned
eleven).... and I lied about my age when an eleven-year-old could do
such a thing. I was supposed to be 12 yrs old to swim the event.  I
secretly swam around "the pier" before morning pool workouts almost
every morning for more than two months with lifeguards paddling with us
at about 6 in the morning ...  trust me when I tell you that I know the
value of swimming.)

Stroke and breathe, jerm.  Trust me.

Webby

Webby

In article
0e03f166-4c7b-4281-8c78-091a6b2eb... at (no spam) p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,



 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 8:57 pm, The Webby <tmjiatroepide... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:
In article
2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44... at (no spam) u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:00 pm, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby

Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you
think its best I dont know I understand.  Is there any good that could
come
from me getting the imaging?

It isn't a matter of the imaging being a problem.  The interpretation of
the study is the only thing that matters to you, the patient.  

If the study is free ... let's just think for a moment about finances.  
If the study and surgery were free ... is that all a person should
consider before agreeing to a study and a surgery?  What we know about
MRIs is that they are safe.  There isn't any radiation exposure.  But
... the interpretation ... yes ... hmmm.  Surgeons operate on patients
not radiologists.  But there will be a radiology report sent to the  
doctor ordering the study.  Then the doctors will decide what to make of
the findings.  

jerm, in a keyboarding world, I am trying to tie my fingers up rather
than keyboard (bite my tongue rather than speak).  I understand the
vulnerability of the patient; in this case, we're thinking about you.  

Just for the sake of information, I was amongst the first TMJ-MRI
patients studied.  Back then, the machines overheated before the studies
could be completed; we're talking hours.  Now, it doesn't take long to
complete the MRI and obviously, the imaging is better and the
interpretations are based upon two decades *plus* of data.

I would not say to you or anyone else that you should not have the study
done.  Let's face it; there might be some valuable information gleaned
from it.  

Let's see what some of the others have to contribute to this question of
yours.  And no matter what else ... get yourself into the pool or the
ocean .. *SWIM* ... and make it a part of your daily rituals as much as
you can.  I believe it is the best thing you've got going for yourself.  
If I were nearby, I'd stand on the deck and bark at you!  So....

Webby (forgive typos.  posting quickly because of my connection troubles)

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:12:28 -0700 (PDT), StovePipe

stove99p... at (no spam) yahoo.ca> wrote:
Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....

the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....

Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus,  all-a other
regs,  _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_:
...... Prolly......    <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and
eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....

Hiya Pipey ! Good to know your diet hasn't changed much !

Don't forget to wash that down with some brake fluid.

In article
7dd16d70-d360-487f-a25f-aaf800447... at (no spam) j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,



 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:18 pm, jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 8:57 pm, The Webby <tmjiatroepide... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:

In article
2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44... at (no spam) u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

 jerm <blown... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:00 pm, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby

Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you
think its best I dont know I understand.  Is there any good that could
come
from me getting the imaging?

I think the neurologist that ordered it was convinced that I was a
hypochondriac migranieur that
was imagining the TMJ problems. I think the term he used on my medical
records was "conversion disorder".
I watched this guys dvd he gives to his new patient, and his opinion
is that TMJ problems are a pitfall for migraine
diagnosis-needless to say I got my records and moved on. So, im just
wondering if I should even bother with the MRI.

I would ask Dr. Boyd to comment upon this.  He knows your condition;
he's treating you.  You have found reason to have confidence in him.  
The one thing I would like to say is this:  don't have an MRI or any
other kind of a scan or study done that will be interpreted by someone
you do not have confidence in.  There is just no reason to do that to
yourself.  

Don't rush into studies ordered by any doctor who you intend to leave or
doubt.  There is no emergency here even though it may seem that way to
you.  You have time to be cautious.  And being cautious is the one thing
that should be number one on your list of how to go forward at this
point.

Hang in or just hang ten.  ;-)

Webby

I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
options.

Make a 'standard' NTI and 80% of patients get better fast.

A little tweaking here or there, and another 10-15% show
improvement.

The last 5% are tough.

Steve

just keep going back then huh.

Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN
Cheers
SP

On Jun 21, 4:38 am, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:

I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
options.

Make a 'standard' NTI and 80% of patients get better fast.

A little tweaking here or there, and another 10-15% show
improvement.

The last 5% are tough.

Steve

 Steve, are the last 5% just tough, or are they definitely not going
to work out?



just keep going back then huh.

Would an MRI be helpful for my case? I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

Would an MRI be helpful for my case? I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.

Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....

the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....

Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus, all-a other
regs, _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_:

StovePipe, here, puttin' in his annual appearance... Actually, I'm
planning to get a TeraNews account and hopefully re-use the ol' iBook
to get back onto here, just like inna old days... IIRC, registry for a
TeraNews basic account is about 4 dollars US fas a one-time payment.


On Jun 12, 4:32 pm, Dartos <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:



I remind her (your wife) that it is up to her whether she wears her NTI
or not. If she feels better wearing it, then she might want
to continue. Not quite a true addiction, but certainly she
is dependent upon the NTI to *******prevent pain.********

Asterisks my own, to highlight a point: If _I_ place an NTI in a
patient's mouth by the chairside cold cure method, I damned well
better have a patient with SYMPOTMS. I've learned that if I place 'em
to PREVENT further damage to worn-cracked-unbalanced (but
asymptomatic) dentitition, they will put 'em in the top drawer after
two weeks.... All sorts o' reasons: looks like hell (all yellowed and
stained), doesn't let 'em close their mouths as they try to sleep...
too big in the front of the mouth.... they're _too old_ to adapt to
new habits....

Basically, I'm not _Charismatic_ enough to convince 'em to tough out
the first month, 'till they get used to 'em.

Jim Boyd touches on this in one of his lectures (interview by David
Doddell) in mp3 format that is on the Keller Labs site. Y'all can hear
that here:

http://www.kellerlab.com/AudioFiles1.shtml

...although most-a youse already have this lecture on one-a Tim's CD's

Basically, he says that if they don't have symptoms, they maybe won't
appreciate what the NTI will do for 'em, where as if there _are_
experiencing symptoms, and therefore thy're feeling relief by wearing
their NTIs, they're much more willing to say _So What???_ when/if they
experience jaw seating/occlusal discrepancies, dry mouth, etc...

'S'at because I can't seem to get 'em as well adjusted and polished
as, for example, those upper/lower devices that Dartos placed on one
of the patients that dropped in to the site that Tim put up a couple-a
years back?

...... Prolly...... <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and
eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....

I'm getting slightly better acceptance using the Keller Labs NTI
product, especially on those cases where a Standard Long (I usually
use that, as the Short seems to hurt the upper centrals) or even a
Reduced Vertical DE won't fit unless I destroy either the labial or
lingual wall. Most-a these cases also need a lower or upper slider on
the opposite dental arch. I believe that _jerm_ should have a slider
instead of wearing his nighttime device during day time hours... but
that's for Jim Boyd to say.

... but for asymptomatic patients, 'specially those who have abandoned
their NTIs, I'm using the Eclipse, by Dentsply.

If she breaks hers (she's my worst patient about tearing them up),
it is an emergency to get a new one before nightfall.

D

Hey Dartos: Whyn't you make a couple-a devices in advance? That's what
_I_ did for one young lady I have who has gone through FOUR of them
inside a year.... Y'all heard right: FOUR... QUATRE...
QUATRO....VIERMALIG.... All placed chair-side-ally on the lower arch.
If she breaks it again, I'll let Keller try to make a stronger device,
if they can. (Breaks lengthwise, as if you intentionally pulled the
labial and lingual plates apart with some Tyranna-saurus Rex jaws....)

.... come to think of it, she _does_ have a dog.... 'wonder if doggeys
go for NTIs like they do dentures...?....

But, I digress....

Duz anybody think that maybe _jerm_ has a bit of the Eagle Syndrome
(calcification of the stylo-clavicular ligaments) operating here? That
might explain some of his spasm-like pains, especially if they arise
after a certain neck or head movement...

....just a thought....

To _jerm_ ... Hey, man: 'd be really bitchin' if you could get back to
surfin'.... and forget a bit about your pain... But failing that, have
you tried _drawing_ or _painting_ your pain? That might be
theraputic...

Also for Webby: Sheesh; Y'all have almost enough material here to
do follow-up to The TMJ IatroEpidemic.... That could be a
collaborative effort with _jerm_...


Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN
Cheers
SP

On Jun 13, 3:14 pm, The Webby <tmjiatroepide... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:

Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or
you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if
you're interested please let us know right away!


.... Um..... who's doing the driving....?....

;-)

Cheers
SP

Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....

the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....

Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus, all-a other
regs, _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_:

StovePipe, here, puttin' in his annual appearance... Actually, I'm
planning to get a TeraNews account and hopefully re-use the ol' iBook
to get back onto here, just like inna old days... IIRC, registry for a
TeraNews basic account is about 4 dollars US fas a one-time payment.


On Jun 12, 4:32 pm, Dartos <tuthjoc... at (no spam) myturbonet.com> wrote:



I remind her (your wife) that it is up to her whether she wears her NTI
or not. If she feels better wearing it, then she might want
to continue. Not quite a true addiction, but certainly she
is dependent upon the NTI to *******prevent pain.********

Asterisks my own, to highlight a point: If _I_ place an NTI in a
patient's mouth by the chairside cold cure method, I damned well
better have a patient with SYMPOTMS. I've learned that if I place 'em
to PREVENT further damage to worn-cracked-unbalanced (but
asymptomatic) dentitition, they will put 'em in the top drawer after
two weeks.... All sorts o' reasons: looks like hell (all yellowed and
stained), doesn't let 'em close their mouths as they try to sleep...
too big in the front of the mouth.... they're _too old_ to adapt to
new habits....

Basically, I'm not _Charismatic_ enough to convince 'em to tough out
the first month, 'till they get used to 'em.

Jim Boyd touches on this in one of his lectures (interview by David
Doddell) in mp3 format that is on the Keller Labs site. Y'all can hear
that here:

http://www.kellerlab.com/AudioFiles1.shtml

...although most-a youse already have this lecture on one-a Tim's CD's

Basically, he says that if they don't have symptoms, they maybe won't
appreciate what the NTI will do for 'em, where as if there _are_
experiencing symptoms, and therefore thy're feeling relief by wearing
their NTIs, they're much more willing to say _So What???_ when/if they
experience jaw seating/occlusal discrepancies, dry mouth, etc...

'S'at because I can't seem to get 'em as well adjusted and polished
as, for example, those upper/lower devices that Dartos placed on one
of the patients that dropped in to the site that Tim put up a couple-a
years back?

...... Prolly...... <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and
eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....

I'm getting slightly better acceptance using the Keller Labs NTI
product, especially on those cases where a Standard Long (I usually
use that, as the Short seems to hurt the upper centrals) or even a
Reduced Vertical DE won't fit unless I destroy either the labial or
lingual wall. Most-a these cases also need a lower or upper slider on
the opposite dental arch. I believe that _jerm_ should have a slider
instead of wearing his nighttime device during day time hours... but
that's for Jim Boyd to say.

... but for asymptomatic patients, 'specially those who have abandoned
their NTIs, I'm using the Eclipse, by Dentsply.

If she breaks hers (she's my worst patient about tearing them up),
it is an emergency to get a new one before nightfall.

D

Hey Dartos: Whyn't you make a couple-a devices in advance? That's what
_I_ did for one young lady I have who has gone through FOUR of them
inside a year.... Y'all heard right: FOUR... QUATRE...
QUATRO....VIERMALIG.... All placed chair-side-ally on the lower arch.
If she breaks it again, I'll let Keller try to make a stronger device,
if they can. (Breaks lengthwise, as if you intentionally pulled the
labial and lingual plates apart with some Tyranna-saurus Rex jaws....)

.... come to think of it, she _does_ have a dog.... 'wonder if doggeys
go for NTIs like they do dentures...?....

But, I digress....

Duz anybody think that maybe _jerm_ has a bit of the Eagle Syndrome
(calcification of the stylo-clavicular ligaments) operating here? That
might explain some of his spasm-like pains, especially if they arise
after a certain neck or head movement...

....just a thought....

To _jerm_ ... Hey, man: 'd be really bitchin' if you could get back to
surfin'.... and forget a bit about your pain... But failing that, have
you tried _drawing_ or _painting_ your pain? That might be
theraputic...

Also for Webby: Sheesh; Y'all have almost enough material here to
do follow-up to The TMJ IatroEpidemic.... That could be a
collaborative effort with _jerm_...

Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN
Cheers
SP