monty1... at (no spam) lycos.com wrote:
As you get older, your body will be in trouble due to not enough high-
quality protein (and probably not enough protein in general).  You
also may not get enough of certain vitamins and minerals, though if
you were willing to supplement with nutritional yeast, that could help
quite a bit.

   Are you suggesting that people need more protein late in life than
they do in middle age?  Why?

On May 21, 10:44 am, "trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com |"<trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:This is a loony idea. I'll point

out that
 without a B-12 source there will be a problem.

Have you ever wondered where a gorilla a chimp a marmoset a lemur a
fruit bat get their B-12 from .. ?

B-12 comes down to Earth from above in raindrops ..

How is it we seem to so low on B-12 .. ?

Who loves ya.
Tom

On May 12, 10:54 am, Fred45 <fred44... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Fruit is the most beautiful food on the planet.Thefruitariandiet is

Beauty has nothing to do with nutrition.

based on the idea that primitive humans ate only raw fruits and

Which is wrong.

vegetables.

Without animal sourced foods you will be malnourished.

On May 21, 12:50 pm, TC <tunder... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

On May 12, 10:54 am, Fred45 <fred44... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Fruit is the most beautiful food on the planet.Thefruitariandiet is

Beauty has nothing to do with nutrition.

Primates characteristically rely on appearance while foraging.

News in Physiological Sciences, Vol. 17, No. 3, 93-98, June 2002

Trichromatic Color Vision in Primates

"Trichromatic color vision is rare among mammals, occurring only in
some primates. Recent work has elucidated the adaptive behavioral
significance of trichromacy as well as its underlying genetic and
neurophysiological mechanisms. These studies reveal a complex neural
system..Fruits eaten by primates differ from those eaten by other
animals in having yellow, orange, or red coloration, and this has led
to the suggestion that L cone pigments and primate trichromacy evolved
as an adaptation for detecting fruit against a background of green
foliage. This hypothesis has received considerable support over the
last decade. Although it was first advanced to account for the origin
of trichromacy in old world primates"
"young leaves, which are slightly redder in color than mature leaves,
could only be discriminated from mature leaves along a red-green color
axis. The significance of this color difference among leaves is that
younger leaves have a higher protein content and are less tough than
mature leaves, making younger leaves a higher quality food item. Old
world primates must rely on leaf foraging during periods when fruit is
unavailable, and this is apparently also true for howler monkeys. In
light of this, Dominy and Lucas argue that leaf foraging, rather than
fruit foraging, is the critical factor in maintaining trichromacy in
primates" Afterwards, red became a secondary sex characteristic and
red hair even appeared on some humans. No wonder ripe figs naturally
look more "beautiful" than carrion.



based on the idea that primitive humans ate only raw fruits and

Which is wrong.

vegetables.

And vegetables! I agree it wasn't "humans" but protohumans who ate not
"only" raw fruits AND vegetables but add nuts, flowers, leaves, breast
milk. I've found no reason/evidence that H. Sapiens digestive system
prevents humans from thriving on a similar diet with more fruit
availability today.

Without animal sourced foods you will be malnourished.

Name 1 unobtainable nutrient for someone eating mostly fruit/avoiding
animal food.

Still hunting for a reason to hunt while foraging,
Chris

On May 21, 2:37 pm, crisology <crisol... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

prevents humans from thriving on a similar diet with more fruit
availability today.

Without animal sourced foods you will be malnourished.

Name 1 unobtainable nutrient for someone eating mostly fruit/avoiding
animal food.

It is impossible for vegans
I'm not fruitarian or "vegan". I'm a frugivore (digesting fruit best &

to get the *optimal* amounts of the
following:

vitamin B-12

On May 21, 3:58 pm, TC <tunder... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

On May 21, 2:37 pm, crisology <crisol... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

I've found no reason/evidence that H. Sapiens digestive system> > prevents humans from thriving on a similar diet with more fruit
availability today.

Without animal sourced foods you will be malnourished.

Name 1 unobtainable nutrient for someone eating mostly fruit/avoiding
animal food.

It is impossible for vegans

I'm not fruitarian or "vegan". I'm a frugivore (digesting fruit best &
eating more fruit than other types of food).

to get the *optimal* amounts of the
following:

vitamin B-12

B12 is a generic term for cobalamin (which you listed as a separate
"nutrient deficiency for vegans") for a biosynthesized vitamin from
bacterial enzymes/micro-organisms. Even though "animals can not
produce B12" animals can synthesize B12 & humans/chimps/some
herbivores even absorb some synthesized B12. "B vitamins also are
synthesized by hindgut bacteria, but the extent to which they are
absorbed from the hindgut is unclear. Wrong et al. concluded that
there was good evidence that nicotinic acid, riboflavin, pantothenic
acid, thiamin, biotin, pyridoxine, folic acid, and vitamin B12 are
synthesized by microbes in the human colon, and all but the first
three were absorbed to some degree."-Physiol. Rev. 78: 393-427,1998.
But not mice (obligate omnivores).

Frugivores obtain natural B12 from bacteria on plants & insects in/on
fruit in nature or through preparation of synthetic &/or natural
bacteria cultivated on plants for supplement. B12 is cultivated
organically from bacteria used to produce pills, which are a
reasonable supplement for the pollution/exploitation that has depleted
B12 normally found on unwashed fruit. It seems a natural reaction that
most vegans take B12 supplements considering the alternative can be to
supplement dairy-filled diets w/decongestant pills & skin-care
products (as I did).

B12 has been measured in natural drinking water.
"Vitamin B12 is almost the universal product of bacterial action. So
it dawned on him that it might have come from natural drinking water -
which would have had many bacteria in its catchment area. He tested
the water in the Yarra River near Warburton Adventist Hospital in
Australia. The river water there is good drinking quality. When he
tested it, he found one litre (two pints) of the water contained the
Recommended Daily Allowance of Vitamin B12.'

B12 is found in naturally growing unmanured/control crops. .29 kg dry
spinach contains 2Mcg. B-12 Data from Mozafar [1994] and Estimated
Weights of Plant Foods Required to Supply 2 Mcg of B-12.

I had a rash develop (B12 deficiency?) during a slight drought,
several months before blueberry season/feijoa bloomed. After a few
visits to undisturbed forest to load up on "low growing shiny
blueberry" natives (I ate some sand w/these berries), the rash went
away. I've also eaten the feijoa petals growing above a sandy area of
my backyard/unfertilized. I don't know if the rash was a result of B12
deficiency or not. I do know this is the way fruit is supposed to
taste. On days I have no ripe fruit in yard or cant' make it to the
forest I drink hemp milk w/B12 & "Vitamin D" in it. I'm in the best
overall health of my life eating mainly fruit/no animals.

Why do you say it's "impossible for vegans to get the optimal amount
of B12" at the top of your list of "nutrient deficient diet" for
"vegans"? After B12 is covered we can go to the next on your list as
I'll be more likely to take the mineral "malabsorption" warning more
seriously (among others) if I believe you are also serious because it
seems like you just put together a list for me to jump through hoops.
Some of your list was covered/undisputed recently on a different
thread.

Organically,
Chris

Can you assure me that vegans, vegetarians, frugivores and fruitarians
are all trained enough

to understand all that and that they all get
enough b-12 in their diets.
I'm not trying to speak for "they". I just attempt to obtain nutrients

If they need to take supplements then you
admit that the diet is deficient in b-12.

It doesn't matter how much
produce they

lick to get the feces and bacteria with the b-12, the
diet is deficient in b-12, period.

The RDI's are ridiculously low to accomodate the food industry.

how much can be gotten from drinking water? I don't buy that b-12 in
the water.

nonsense. For one, hopw much is left pver after the water is
processed, chlorinated, etc.

On May 21, 2:37 pm, crisology <crisol... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
On May 21, 12:50 pm, TC <tunder... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

On May 12, 10:54 am, Fred45 <fred44... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Fruit is the most beautiful food on the planet.Thefruitariandiet is
Beauty has nothing to do with nutrition.
Primates characteristically rely on appearance while foraging.

News in Physiological Sciences, Vol. 17, No. 3, 93-98, June 2002

Trichromatic Color Vision in Primates

"Trichromatic color vision is rare among mammals, occurring only in
some primates. Recent work has elucidated the adaptive behavioral
significance of trichromacy as well as its underlying genetic and
neurophysiological mechanisms. These studies reveal a complex neural
system..Fruits eaten by primates differ from those eaten by other
animals in having yellow, orange, or red coloration, and this has led
to the suggestion that L cone pigments and primate trichromacy evolved
as an adaptation for detecting fruit against a background of green
foliage. This hypothesis has received considerable support over the
last decade. Although it was first advanced to account for the origin
of trichromacy in old world primates"
"young leaves, which are slightly redder in color than mature leaves,
could only be discriminated from mature leaves along a red-green color
axis. The significance of this color difference among leaves is that
younger leaves have a higher protein content and are less tough than
mature leaves, making younger leaves a higher quality food item. Old
world primates must rely on leaf foraging during periods when fruit is
unavailable, and this is apparently also true for howler monkeys. In
light of this, Dominy and Lucas argue that leaf foraging, rather than
fruit foraging, is the critical factor in maintaining trichromacy in
primates" Afterwards, red became a secondary sex characteristic and
red hair even appeared on some humans. No wonder ripe figs naturally
look more "beautiful" than carrion.



based on the idea that primitive humans ate only raw fruits and
Which is wrong.
vegetables.
And vegetables! I agree it wasn't "humans" but protohumans who ate not
"only" raw fruits AND vegetables but add nuts, flowers, leaves, breast
milk. I've found no reason/evidence that H. Sapiens digestive system
prevents humans from thriving on a similar diet with more fruit
availability today.

Without animal sourced foods you will be malnourished.
Name 1 unobtainable nutrient for someone eating mostly fruit/avoiding
animal food.

Still hunting for a reason to hunt while foraging,
Chris

It is impossible for vegans to get the *optimal* amounts of the
following:

vitamin B-12
vitamin D

Iodine
Iron
Zinc
Potassium
Sodium
(minerals deficiencies may be due to malabsorption, not necessarily
due to the lack in the diet, therefore supplementing will be useless)

cobalamin
omega-3 EFAs

There are more, especially the essential fatty acids and esential
proteins that are only found in enough quantity and quality from
animal sourced foods.

Eliminating animal sourced foods is by definition and nutrient
deficient diet.

On May 22, 12:24 pm, TC <tunder... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Can you assure me that vegans, vegetarians, frugivores and fruitarians
are all trained enough

Your Honor, I have filed as exhibit A, my B12 training certification
document, replete w/before and after rash photos and samples of the
sand on unprocessed low growing shiny blueberry residues preserved
with labels of nutritional data from processed B12 sources. Enclosed
is a copy of my license showing that I am a feral primate and do
reside outside my ancestor's diminished native habitat. I am guilty of
purchasing chlorinated city water and using it to rinse potential
pesticide/bacteria off commercially purchased fruit. I have a
statement of a recent water bill paid in full.

to understand all that and that they all get
enough b-12 in their diets.
I'm not trying to speak for "they". I just attempt to obtain nutrients
as healthily/naturally/responsibly as possible based on experience and
info and like many people I'm agitated that I trusted advertisers/
products/those who inherited diets who lied/misinformed me about diet
in the past. If you can "assure me that [behavioral omnivores] are all
seeking to "understand all that and that they all [want to] get enough
b-12 in their diets [without meat/dairy]" then I just gave you a
blueprint for myself but I can't be liable if "they" get sloppy in
their choices of food/lifestyle & don't experience the same exact
results. I don't expect anybody to drop meat based on my personal
story or scientific references. It's almost a religion for many ppl to
eat meat or not eat meat and it's very emotional.

If they need to take supplements then you
admit that the diet is deficient in b-12.

I admitted that processed food/water is deficient in B12.

It doesn't matter how much
produce they

They? You said it is impossible to get optimal B12 without eating
animals/dairy. I refuted. Your response to the fact that B12 is easily
obtained in practical ways without meat/dairy?

lick to get the feces and bacteria with the b-12, the
diet is deficient in b-12, period.

My frugivorous diet is not deficient in B12. I obtain natural and
processed B12. You can "lick feces" or cow udders- neither is
necessary. I don't know where that came from if not an attempt to
portray B12 as something that requires extreme/unnatural behavior like
eating fresh fruit..

The RDI's are ridiculously low to accomodate the food industry.

Generally it's the opposite. Can you elaborate? RDIs for Canadian B12
are 1 Mcg. In US it's 2 Mcg and I gave you data reflecting B12 amounts
higher than US RDI levels. Do you have ties to "the food industry"

how much can be gotten from drinking water? I don't buy that b-12 in
the water.

Good, rainwater should not be for sale. Don't fall for it.

nonsense. For one, hopw much is left pver after the water is
processed, chlorinated, etc.

I honestly can't tell if you are actually reading my post or the post
from ironjustice carefully because both of us clearly explained it is
the UNprocessed water sources that provide trace B12 and they are only
additional/potential sources for B12.

Sustainably,
Chris