"Amy Blankenship" <Amy_nospam at (no spam) magnoliamultimedia.com> wrote in message
news:plF3k.3247$bh5.2756 at (no spam) bignews4.bellsouth.net...

For most people who adopt those free cats, though, they are companions
and family members (i.e. their monetary value is irrelevant). But for
most people with chickens, the value of the bird is not
companionship--it's the value of the eggs or meat.


g
Thats my point -- for the NEW poultry keepers who are getting interested
and causing an incredibly rapid rise in poultry keeping all over -- here
and over there - these animals ARE partof their family.
The fact that they produce anything at all is a bonus, the humans are not
calculating the costs per egg, only that they are producing something that
they have control over, and can teach their kids something about where
food comes from, and that they feel they have given a few chooks a better
way of life than those that produce all the other eggs they eat, hidden in
all the rest of their foods.

These are different poultry keepers, to those who have been about for the
past 100 years. BUT what they may force is a shift of consideration to
poultry so that we learn a great deal more about them and their veterinary
care in the domestic situation and SO improve the health and welfare in
that situation a great deal.

Here it can cost up to £100 for a POL
and at least double what you are suggesting for an ordinary bird.

Here people won't pay more for a hen than the value of the eggs she'll
lay. Go figure .

I'm talking about birds that are livestock, not pets. If your birds are
pets, it's a whole different story.

But this is about the economics of why vets don't know much about
poultry--and that is because it is not economically feasible for most
people to call a vet for a chicken.

The point is that there are not enough people who consider chickens as
companions calling the vets to give the vets the kind of experience they
would need to provide that kind of care.

Just like with goats you're better off calling a more experienced goat
owner than a vet. My goats are definitely pets, but I've spent hundreds
of dollars to have the vet not be able to do anything to save my goats. A
free phone call to my friend up the road, however, usually will save the
goat.

"Amy Blankenship" <Amy_nospam at (no spam) magnoliamultimedia.com> wrote in message
news:57B3k.2594$rW2.1466 at (no spam) bignews9.bellsouth.net...

"Steve Newport" <steven at (no spam) newport47.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ptmt441mv725dlb1it2hjg7ig3880shstk at (no spam) 4ax.com...
Yeah, interesting comment on vets. The largest practice in our area
only had one vet that apparently knew anything about chickens. We
would have had to wait 10 days before he came back from holiday. Thank
God for SPR

To be fair, it's probably not terribly economically rewarding for a vet to
know much about an animal that is worth about 1/3 what it costs to take
the animal to the vet or have the vet come out.

But that is NOT true

Chickens cost more than most dogs and cats to acquire and house and keep.
Vets are entirely happy to take several hundreds of pounds before a dog or
cat is more than 9 months old for vaccinations and neutering
They should treat every animal that is presented, there is plenty of backup
Its not up to the vet to decide what is economic when the owner is prepared
to pay !!!!

[and this is the same in most places - its only the attitude that constrains
things]

I think on this value of chickens question there is also another angle
- the British loive of pets. I think a lot of families buying their
bird treat them as pets not food producers.

Went to the South of England show last week and the price of some of
the birds there (OK a lot were show birds) was enormous.

Steve Newport wrote:
I think on this value of chickens question there is also another
angle - the British loive of pets. I think a lot of families buying
their bird treat them as pets not food producers.

It is now both -- they are interested in having food from a source
they can monitor and clearly most other food animals are impractical
! There is an equal upsurgence in vegetable growing.

But its not confined to the UK, from all the years we have been
online, its clear that there is a similar growing movement in other
places, including the US and Australia, just not as far on. Maybe in
the US the credit crunch has hit a lot harder.

And then there are the "sensible, practical" people with a small flock

"Amy Blankenship" <Amy_nospam at (no spam) magnoliamultimedia.com> wrote in message
news:EXQ3k.2821$AJ6.979 at (no spam) bignews8.bellsouth.net...
Here it can cost up to £100 for a POL
and at least double what you are suggesting for an ordinary bird.

Here people won't pay more for a hen than the value of the eggs she'll
lay. Go figure .

Which area are you defining within "here" ?
I know of plenty who pay much more within the USA for breed lines they are
interested in -- for utility and otherwise.
I have had offer after offer from people prepared to pay hundreds of
dollars worth of blood testing to get eggs exported from here to there,
with the chances of getting a few stock birds.

I'm talking about birds that are livestock, not pets. If your birds are
pets, it's a whole different story.

Who is "your"?
I am talking, and was clear I was talking, about the growing domestic
market.

These are people who are having birds in their backgarden, smallholding,
orchard, allotment etc for eggs, and increasingly meat, for their own
consumption and some neighbourly sales.
People who have between 2 - 25 birds probably. Pure breeds, rehomed
battery, and commercial birds included.

What is your category of "livestock" ?
I know quite a number of larger flock owners who would be keen to have
more research being done into poultry diseases, husbandry and welfare in
mixed outdoor situations.

There is a lot to learn still, which would give us all help as more and
more birds get raised and kept in more and more marginal conditions with
the increasing demand for free range production.
There is plenty known about why its not a good idea but if farmers are
going to be forced into it by consumers then we have a lot to learn so as
not to end up with the same poor health status of flocks as beset our
predecessors in the 1950's which led to the necessity for cage units.
So the economics for the veterinary world extends far beyond the domestic
keeper.

Instead of poultry production being localised into relatively small parts
of any country there will be pressure to try then elsewhere so more vets
will have enforced contact.
And our commerical folks expect close collaboration with the veterinary
profession for good preventative measures.

But this is about the economics of why vets don't know much about
poultry--and that is because it is not economically feasible for most
people to call a vet for a chicken.

They take chook to vet, like they do their cat, rabbit, pet hamster.
I am talking thousands of people. not a handful.

I think on this value of chickens question there is also another angle
- the British loive of pets. I think a lot of families buying their
bird treat them as pets not food producers.

Went to the South of England show last week and the price of some of
the birds there (OK a lot were show birds) was enormous.

Jill wrote:
Steve Newport wrote:
I think on this value of chickens question there is also another
angle - the British loive of pets. I think a lot of families buying
their bird treat them as pets not food producers.

It is now both -- they are interested in having food from a source
they can monitor and clearly most other food animals are impractical
! There is an equal upsurgence in vegetable growing.

But its not confined to the UK, from all the years we have been
online, its clear that there is a similar growing movement in other
places, including the US and Australia, just not as far on. Maybe in
the US the credit crunch has hit a lot harder.

And then there are the "sensible, practical" people with a small flock
specifically for sensible, practical reasons, who develop an
irrational fondness for one chook who escapes the cull of the
underproductive birds this year... and next year... and against all
common sense ceases to be a stock unit and becomes a member of the
family. Charm can take a chicken a long way!

Which area are you defining within "here" ?
I know of plenty who pay much more within the USA for breed lines
they are interested in -- for utility and otherwise.
I have had offer after offer from people prepared to pay hundreds of
dollars worth of blood testing to get eggs exported from here to
there, with the chances of getting a few stock birds.

I'm sure those people have enough birds to make it worth the while of
the vets in everyone's local area to know poultry really well

I'm talking about birds that are livestock, not pets. If your
birds are pets, it's a whole different story.

Who is "your"?
I am talking, and was clear I was talking, about the growing domestic
market.

I was talking about in general.

These are people who are having birds in their backgarden,
smallholding, orchard, allotment etc for eggs, and increasingly
meat, for their own consumption and some neighbourly sales.
People who have between 2 - 25 birds probably. Pure breeds, rehomed
battery, and commercial birds included.

Sure, and if you have that many birds and you're calling the vet out
enough to make it worth his while to know something about poultry,
you're doing something VERY VERY wrong!

What is your category of "livestock" ?
I know quite a number of larger flock owners who would be keen to
have more research being done into poultry diseases, husbandry and
welfare in mixed outdoor situations.

And they just go around donating money to it...?

There is a lot to learn still, which would give us all help as more
and more birds get raised and kept in more and more marginal
conditions with the increasing demand for free range production.
There is plenty known about why its not a good idea but if farmers
are going to be forced into it by consumers then we have a lot to
learn so as not to end up with the same poor health status of flocks
as beset our predecessors in the 1950's which led to the necessity
for cage units. So the economics for the veterinary world extends far
beyond the
domestic keeper.

OK, well tell that to the vets, because I'm sure they're quite
willing to do anything that will positively impact their bottom lines.

Instead of poultry production being localised into relatively small
parts of any country there will be pressure to try then elsewhere so
more vets will have enforced contact.
And our commerical folks expect close collaboration with the
veterinary profession for good preventative measures.

And they already HAVE that. But it's probably not the same guy the
rest of us get when we call the vet.

But this is about the economics of why vets don't know much about
poultry--and that is because it is not economically feasible for
most people to call a vet for a chicken.

They take chook to vet, like they do their cat, rabbit, pet hamster.
I am talking thousands of people. not a handful.

So I guess there IS no problem with vets not knowing much about
poultry, since there are people all over the place bringing their
chickens in for regular checkups LOL.

" Jill" <news at (no spam) NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc2uoF3aritrU1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
Most of those would appreciate access to good veterinary
advice and knowledge.

So they should go to vet school, since the economics just
aren't there right now for a vet to learn about chickens in
most areas.

Sure, and if you have that many birds and you're calling
the vet out enough to make it worth his while to know
something about poultry, you're doing something VERY VERY
wrong!

Who said anything about calling a vet out?
People take animals TO vets.

In my area, it costs exactly the same to have the livestock
vet come out as to go to him. It was cheaper before gas
prices went up. And I guarantee you if you take your
chicken to the vet he won't get the whole story about what
is going on with the flock.

That is my point. If you have one person in each area who
is constantly dragging his birds to the vet every 5
minutes, that is STILL not going to be enough for it to
make it worth the vet's while to study up on poultry. Or
even two. Or ten. The vet has limited time and needs to
keep up to date on many species, particularly livestock
vets. They need to know cows, horses, and dogs. Depending
on the area, they may need to know about sheep, goats,
llamas, alpacas, rabbits, and who knows what. If they get
one call a month for poultry and 100 calls a month for
horses, where do you think they will concentrate their
time?

A_ L _P wrote:
Jill wrote:
Steve Newport wrote:
I think on this value of chickens question there is also another
angle - the British loive of pets. I think a lot of families buying
their bird treat them as pets not food producers.

It is now both -- they are interested in having food from a source
they can monitor and clearly most other food animals are impractical
! There is an equal upsurgence in vegetable growing.

But its not confined to the UK, from all the years we have been
online, its clear that there is a similar growing movement in other
places, including the US and Australia, just not as far on. Maybe in
the US the credit crunch has hit a lot harder.

And then there are the "sensible, practical" people with a small flock
specifically for sensible, practical reasons, who develop an
irrational fondness for one chook who escapes the cull of the
underproductive birds this year... and next year... and against all
common sense ceases to be a stock unit and becomes a member of the
family. Charm can take a chicken a long way!


What's her name?


*One* of the ones I'm thinking of never did have a name, but she'd had

Amy Blankenship wrote:

Which area are you defining within "here" ?
I know of plenty who pay much more within the USA for breed lines
they are interested in -- for utility and otherwise.
I have had offer after offer from people prepared to pay hundreds of
dollars worth of blood testing to get eggs exported from here to
there, with the chances of getting a few stock birds.

I'm sure those people have enough birds to make it worth the while of
the vets in everyone's local area to know poultry really well ;-)

surprisingly they were folks with 10 - 20 birds mostly, looking to improve
their bloodlines.

I'm talking about birds that are livestock, not pets. If your
birds are pets, it's a whole different story.

Who is "your"?
I am talking, and was clear I was talking, about the growing domestic
market.

I was talking about in general.

But there is no "general"
There are folks who have had a few chickens around their back yard for
donkeys years, and may have a low value for them
There are those who are running a commercial unit and have strict health
plans and biosecurity
There are those who are new who are looking to improve their connection to
the food they eat
There are those who are aiming to win at shows, and breed and raise
accordingly.
There are those who want to improve the pure breed productive qualities
There are those who are raising and selling some birds
There are those who raise and sell thousands of birds.

Most of those would appreciate access to good veterinary advice and
knowledge.

These are people who are having birds in their backgarden,
smallholding, orchard, allotment etc for eggs, and increasingly
meat, for their own consumption and some neighbourly sales.
People who have between 2 - 25 birds probably. Pure breeds, rehomed
battery, and commercial birds included.

Sure, and if you have that many birds and you're calling the vet out
enough to make it worth his while to know something about poultry,
you're doing something VERY VERY wrong!

Who said anything about calling a vet out?
People take animals TO vets.

And any health issue that affects one can affect others, or indicate
management issues that can help others.
And I am talking about the vets accessing the knowledge that they can
already, and that the demand from the thousands of similar poultry people
create.
Not that ONE person is going to trigger this.

What is your category of "livestock" ?
I know quite a number of larger flock owners who would be keen to
have more research being done into poultry diseases, husbandry and
welfare in mixed outdoor situations.

And they just go around donating money to it...?

Pardon?
The research institutes do research on many things, and the recognition of
the massive increase in domestic poultry is plenty big enough to trigger
more work in domestic birds.
It is beginning to happen. I know of a few projects already started.

There is a lot to learn still, which would give us all help as more
and more birds get raised and kept in more and more marginal
conditions with the increasing demand for free range production.
There is plenty known about why its not a good idea but if farmers
are going to be forced into it by consumers then we have a lot to
learn so as not to end up with the same poor health status of flocks
as beset our predecessors in the 1950's which led to the necessity
for cage units. So the economics for the veterinary world extends far
beyond the
domestic keeper.

OK, well tell that to the vets, because I'm sure they're quite
willing to do anything that will positively impact their bottom lines.

I have. And to a several hundred vets to be as they passed through here.

Instead of poultry production being localised into relatively small
parts of any country there will be pressure to try then elsewhere so
more vets will have enforced contact.
And our commerical folks expect close collaboration with the
veterinary profession for good preventative measures.

And they already HAVE that. But it's probably not the same guy the
rest of us get when we call the vet.

It is, if you live in that area.
A few companies will have an in-house vet but most of the units will use
the local veterinary practise.
Obviously in areas where there is a high concentration of one species then
it tends to attract specialists interested in that one.

But this is about the economics of why vets don't know much about
poultry--and that is because it is not economically feasible for
most people to call a vet for a chicken.

They take chook to vet, like they do their cat, rabbit, pet hamster.
I am talking thousands of people. not a handful.

So I guess there IS no problem with vets not knowing much about
poultry, since there are people all over the place bringing their
chickens in for regular checkups LOL.

Are you just being silly?

People who have domestic birds, and many thousands are very new to poultry
keeping, are quite prepared to take an animal that is not well to the vet.
This is the same response tehy would have with any other domestic animal.
At present, but hopefully changing, the response from many vets is not
particularly helpful, nor are they drawing on the professional resources
they have access to.
Obviously as the critical mass of demand rises then realisation will dawn.
The spin off will benefit all of us.

"Amy Blankenship" <Amy_nospam at (no spam) magnoliamultimedia.com> wrote
in news:u894k.3983$LL4.2388 at (no spam) bignews7.bellsouth.net:
i don't know. my livestock vet treats *all* livestock,
including the chickens. he has a lot of horses & cattle, he's
the best camelid vet in the state, deals with sheep & goats,
and chickens. while his practice handles dogs, cats, & small
animals as well, he is primarily a large animal vet.
*any* vet should have an up-to-date copy of the Merck
Veterinary manual & the phone numbers of veterinary research
colleges. there's really not much excuse for not being able to
get a chicken owner some kind of answer/treatment within 24
hours of a question being asked. so even if there's only one
hobby chicken owner in their area, they should be able to get
answers if needed, even if they don't have great expertise
thenselves. even your local dog/cat vet should be willing to
help out a chicken owner (as long as the chicken owner doesn't
expect gratis service!)

" Jill" <news at (no spam) NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc2uoF3aritrU1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
Amy Blankenship wrote:

Which area are you defining within "here" ?
I know of plenty who pay much more within the USA for breed lines
they are interested in -- for utility and otherwise.
I have had offer after offer from people prepared to pay hundreds
of dollars worth of blood testing to get eggs exported from here to
there, with the chances of getting a few stock birds.

I'm sure those people have enough birds to make it worth the while
of the vets in everyone's local area to know poultry really well ;-)

surprisingly they were folks with 10 - 20 birds mostly, looking to
improve their bloodlines.

Which is not enough to support a vet.

Most of those would appreciate access to good veterinary advice and
knowledge.

So they should go to vet school, since the economics just aren't
there right now for a vet to learn about chickens in most areas.

Who said anything about calling a vet out?
People take animals TO vets.

In my area, it costs exactly the same to have the livestock vet come
out as to go to him.

It was cheaper before gas prices went up. And
I guarantee you if you take your chicken to the vet he won't get the
whole story about what is going on with the flock.

And any health issue that affects one can affect others, or indicate
management issues that can help others.
And I am talking about the vets accessing the knowledge that they can
already, and that the demand from the thousands of similar poultry
people create.
Not that ONE person is going to trigger this.

That is my point. If you have one person in each area who is
constantly dragging his birds to the vet every 5 minutes, that is
STILL not going to be enough for it to make it worth the vet's while
to study up on poultry.

on the area, they may need to know about sheep, goats, llamas,
alpacas, rabbits, and who knows what. If they get one call a month
for poultry and 100 calls a month for horses, where do you think they
will concentrate their time?

It is, if you live in that area.
A few companies will have an in-house vet but most of the units will
use the local veterinary practise.
Obviously in areas where there is a high concentration of one
species then it tends to attract specialists interested in that one.

Poultry is one of the top agricultural products in my State. But I
can tell you MY vet isn't one of the ones that the big poultry
companies use.