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| Marc |
 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:55 pm |
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Bernard Lewis mentions in his book, "The Middle East," that "Baghdad"
is a Farsi phrase meaning "god gave."
I can see the "dad" as "gave," but "bagh" as "god"? Is that related to
Russian "bog"?
Thanks,
Marc |
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| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:30 pm |
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On Apr 30, 9:55 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Bernard Lewis mentions in his book, "The Middle East," that "Baghdad"
is a Farsi phrase meaning "god gave."
I can see the "dad" as "gave," but "bagh" as "god"? Is that related to
Russian "bog"?
Why not? |
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| Yusuf B Gursey |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:58 pm |
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On Apr 30, 9:55 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Bernard Lewis mentions in his book, "The Middle East," that "Baghdad"
is a Farsi phrase meaning "god gave."
I can see the "dad" as "gave," but "bagh" as "god"? Is that related to
Russian "bog"?
Thanks,
Marc
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave" |
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| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:39 am |
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On May 1, 12:58 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
Quote: On Apr 30, 9:55 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bernard Lewis mentions in his book, "The Middle East," that "Baghdad"
is a Farsi phrase meaning "god gave."
I can see the "dad" as "gave," but "bagh" as "god"? Is that related to
Russian "bog"?
Thanks,
Marc
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
But Baghdad was founded many centuries after Avestan had gone out of
use, and by Muslims, not Parsees! Isn't there a (Classical) Persian
etymology?. |
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| Marc |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:40 am |
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On Apr 30, 11:58 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
Quote: acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
What's "Zend"? Commentaries on the Avesta?
Is "bagho" IE (and therefore related to Russian "bog")?
Marc |
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| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:52 am |
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On May 1, 7:40 am, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Apr 30, 11:58 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
What's "Zend"? Commentaries on the Avesta?
"Zend" is a 19th-century misnomer for what is now called Avestan, the
languages of the Zoroastrian scriptures. The Avesta contain two quite
distinct linguistic strata, called, appropriately, Old Avestan and
Younger Avestan.
John provided the evidence for the source of Slavic 'god'. |
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| John Atkinson |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:25 am |
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"Marc" <marc.adler@gmail.com> wrote...
Quote: On Apr 30, 11:58 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
What's "Zend"? Commentaries on the Avesta?
Is "bagho" IE (and therefore related to Russian "bog")?
Slavic "bogU" doesn't descend directly from IE, but is a loan from an
Iranian language. Proto-IE *bhagos apparently meant "apportioner"
according to Mallory and Adams (Tocharian B pa:ke, share, part), and
only has religious conotations in II (Sanskrit "bhaga-", one of the
Vedic gods; Avestan "baga-", good fortune) and Phrygian (Bagaios, an
epithet of Zeus).
The Slavic borrowing seems to have been pretty early, before -g- > -Q-
("baga" > "bagha"), which had already occured in Younger Avestan (8-9th
century BC), several centuries before Old Persian.
John. |
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| Marc |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:34 am |
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On May 1, 9:52 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
Quote: "Zend" is a 19th-century misnomer for what is now called Avestan, the
Got it.
Quote: John provided the evidence for the source of Slavic 'god'.
Saw that. Very informative.
Marc |
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| Marc |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:40 am |
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On May 1, 7:25 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
Quote: Slavic "bogU" doesn't descend directly from IE, but is a loan from an
Iranian language. Proto-IE *bhagos apparently meant "apportioner"
Let me get this straight. You're treating Iranian languages as
descending from Proto-IE but not from IE? Or do you mean that Proto-IE
*bhagos developed into some word meaning "god" in an Iranian language,
and that's where Slavic got it from?
What did *bhagos develop into in Slavic (via a direct route)?
Quote: according to Mallory and Adams (Tocharian B pa:ke, share, part), and
only has religious conotations in II (Sanskrit "bhaga-", one of the
Vedic gods; Avestan "baga-", good fortune) and Phrygian (Bagaios, an
epithet of Zeus).
Isn't "Lord" (hlaford = "loaf-ward") an example of a word which
combines religious and "apportioning" connotations in a single word?
Marc |
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| Yusuf B Gursey |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:45 am |
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On May 1, 7:39 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
Quote: On May 1, 12:58 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
On Apr 30, 9:55 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bernard Lewis mentions in his book, "The Middle East," that "Baghdad"
is a Farsi phrase meaning "god gave."
I can see the "dad" as "gave," but "bagh" as "god"? Is that related to
Russian "bog"?
Thanks,
Marc
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
But Baghdad was founded many centuries after Avestan had gone out of
use, and by Muslims, not Parsees! Isn't there a (Classical) Persian
etymology?.
steingass gives persian ba*gh* as "a god" but says it is found in the
composition of names and gibes ba*gh*da:d as an example. |
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| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:52 am |
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On May 1, 1:40 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On May 1, 7:25 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
Slavic "bogU" doesn't descend directly from IE, but is a loan from an
Iranian language. Proto-IE *bhagos apparently meant "apportioner"
Let me get this straight. You're treating Iranian languages as
descending from Proto-IE but not from IE? Or do you mean that Proto-IE
*bhagos developed into some word meaning "god" in an Iranian language,
and that's where Slavic got it from?
The latter.
Quote: What did *bhagos develop into in Slavic (via a direct route)?
From the information provided in this thread, I gather that that root
did not happen to survive in Slavic.
Quote: according to Mallory and Adams (Tocharian B pa:ke, share, part), and
only has religious conotations in II (Sanskrit "bhaga-", one of the
Vedic gods; Avestan "baga-", good fortune) and Phrygian (Bagaios, an
epithet of Zeus).
Isn't "Lord" (hlaford = "loaf-ward") an example of a word which
combines religious and "apportioning" connotations in a single word?
When do the "religious" connotations appear? |
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| Trond Engen |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:24 am |
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John Atkinson skreiv:
Quote: "Marc" <marc.adler@gmail.com> wrote...
On Apr 30, 11:58 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as
zend ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
What's "Zend"? Commentaries on the Avesta?
Is "bagho" IE (and therefore related to Russian "bog")?
Slavic "bogU" doesn't descend directly from IE, but is a loan from an
Iranian language. Proto-IE *bhagos apparently meant "apportioner"
according to Mallory and Adams (Tocharian B pa:ke, share, part), and
only has religious conotations in II (Sanskrit "bhaga-", one of the
Vedic gods; Avestan "baga-", good fortune) and Phrygian (Bagaios, an
epithet of Zeus).
My first thought was to look up the etymology of 'bake' for a "creation"
or "form" connection. Not the most brilliant of thoughts, though, since
the roots have different vowels/laryngeals.
Although disagreeing with him on semantic grounds, Bjorvand and Lindeman
quotes Seebold as arguing that the Germanic 'book' word belongs here and
is the result of a semantic development "destiny" -> "omen" [-> "piece
of wood with signs"] -> "book". I suppose that this would make the
'beech' word secondary -- "omen tree" -- rather than the other way
around. The attested forms don't allow an unambiguous reconstruction
that would settle the matter. (Anyway, if we go with the traditional
etymology or with Seebold's, there's support in Tacitus' description of
the Germanic custom of taking omens from pieces of wood from a certain
tree.)
Quote: The Slavic borrowing seems to have been pretty early, before -g-
-Q- ("baga" > "bagha"), which had already occured in Younger Avestan
(8-9th century BC), several centuries before Old Persian.
Is it certain that the stay-behind languages on the steppe shared in
this development?
--
Trond Engen
- om bokstavtro |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:33 am |
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On May 1, 4:55 am, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Bernard Lewis mentions in his book, "The Middle East," that "Baghdad"
is a Farsi phrase meaning "god gave."
Probably not Farsi, but some Iranian language. In Farsi, God is khoda,
long a. |
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| benlizro@ihug.co.nz |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:08 pm |
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On May 2, 5:52 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
Quote: On May 1, 1:40 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
On May 1, 7:25 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
Slavic "bogU" doesn't descend directly from IE, but is a loan from an
Iranian language. Proto-IE *bhagos apparently meant "apportioner"
Let me get this straight. You're treating Iranian languages as
descending from Proto-IE but not from IE? Or do you mean that Proto-IE
*bhagos developed into some word meaning "god" in an Iranian language,
and that's where Slavic got it from?
The latter.
What did *bhagos develop into in Slavic (via a direct route)?
From the information provided in this thread, I gather that that root
did not happen to survive in Slavic.
according to Mallory and Adams (Tocharian B pa:ke, share, part), and
only has religious conotations in II (Sanskrit "bhaga-", one of the
Vedic gods; Avestan "baga-", good fortune) and Phrygian (Bagaios, an
epithet of Zeus).
Isn't "Lord" (hlaford = "loaf-ward") an example of a word which
combines religious and "apportioning" connotations in a single word?
When do the "religious" connotations appear?
c1000 AD, according to OED. The point is that the social/political
meaning comes first, and the "apportioning" part of it is probably no
longer relevant when it is semantically extended by Christians, on the
model of Dominus/Kyrios/Adonai.
Ross Clark |
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| benlizro@ihug.co.nz |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:11 pm |
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On May 2, 12:25 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
Quote: "Marc" <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote...
On Apr 30, 11:58 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
acc. to a previous post of mine steingass gives teh etymology as zend
ba*gh*o: da:d "God gave"
What's "Zend"? Commentaries on the Avesta?
Is "bagho" IE (and therefore related to Russian "bog")?
Slavic "bogU" doesn't descend directly from IE, but is a loan from an
Iranian language. Proto-IE *bhagos apparently meant "apportioner"
according to Mallory and Adams (Tocharian B pa:ke, share, part), and
only has religious conotations in II (Sanskrit "bhaga-", one of the
Vedic gods; Avestan "baga-", good fortune) and Phrygian (Bagaios, an
epithet of Zeus).
The Slavic borrowing seems to have been pretty early, before -g- > -Q-
("baga" > "bagha"), which had already occured in Younger Avestan (8-9th
century BC), several centuries before Old Persian.
John.
This gh/g correspondence is apparently why Vasmer doesn't accept
borrowing. He is willing to accept a semantic convergence in the
Slavic and Iranian words, both directly inherited. I get the
impression his is a minority view.
Ross Clark |
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