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Science Forum Index » Physics Forum » "Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
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| Esab |
 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:18 am |
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"Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
When a bullet is fired, an explosive charge imparts kinetic energy to
the bullet. That kinetic energy travels with the bullet and is transferred
to the target when the bullet strikes. The question to be answered is where
that kinetic energy resides while the bullet is in flight. It obviously
travels with the bullet as is shown by the fact that stopping the bullet
anywhere along its flight path will impart that energy to the stopping
means. Where that energy is stored is revealed by the corrected Lorentz
Transformations for Velocity using the more rational F,L,T system of units.
To accomplish this it is first necessary to correct an error made in the
derivation of the Lorentz Transformation for Transverse Force. Apparently,
for some hare-brained reason, this transformation was apparently derived
using Maxwell's Equations instead of making use of the basic Lorentz
Transformations and E=M*C^2 alone. The use of this approach led to the
conclusion that the Lorentz Transformation for Transverse Force was the
reciprocal of its correct value. The fact that an error existed in that
derivation was revealed by the classic "Right Angle Lever Paradox" which
those familiar with undergraduate level physics and/or mechanics should be
able to demolish in a few minutes.
Let us consider that an idealized bullet which, when at rest consists
of three ideal "massless" springs at right angles to each other and aligned
with one of the springs parallel to the bullets of the path. (See
http://einsteinhoax.com/rf11.gif). The "rest mass" of the bullet is then
inserted in the springs by compressing them equally. The energy stored in
each of the springs is half of the product of the distance of the their
compression and their stiffness. When kinetic energy is added to the bullet,
the force compressing the parallel spring is increased by the Lorentz
Transformation for Parallel Force, which is unity, while the distance of
compression is reduced by the Lorentz Transformation for Length and energy
must LEAVE the parallel spring. WE can conclude, as a result, that energy
must leave the parallel spring and travel in the space around it (presumably
in a disk oriented perpendularly to the velocity vector).
In the transverse axes, however, a different situation exists. The
distance which these springs are compressed is unchanged by the velocity but
the force required to compress the spring is INCREASED by the Lorentz
Transformation for Transverse Force. As result, the energy of compression
stored in the transverse springs is increased proportionally. The energy of
compression in these springs is increased in direct proportion to the
increase of kinetic energy of the object. It would appear, therefore, that
kinetic energy is stored within the moving object and in a disk like
(perpendicular to its velocity vector) region of space around the object.
The source material for this posting may be found in
http://einsteinhoax.com/hoax.htm (1997); http://einsteinhoax.com/gravity.htm
(1987); and http://einsteinhoax.com/relcor.htm (1997). EVERYTHING WHICH WE
ACCEPT AS TRUE MUST BE CONSISTENT WITH EVERYTHING ELSE WE HAVE ACCEPTED AS
TRUE, IT MUST BE CONSISTENT WITH ALL OBSERVATIONS, AND IT MUST BE
MATHEMATICALLY VIABLE. PRESENT TEACHINGS DO NOT ALWAYS MEET THIS
REQUIREMENT. THE WORLD IS ENTITLED TO A HIGHER STANDARD OF WORKMANSHIP FROM
THOSE IT HAS GRANTED WORLD CLASS STATUS.
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| Benj |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:18 am |
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On Apr 29, 9:18 am, "Esab" <e...@isp.com> wrote:
Quote: "Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
The material at the Website has been posted continuously for over 8
years. In that time THERE HAVE BEEN NO OBJECTIVE REBUTTALS OF ANY OF THE
MATERIAL PRESENTED. There have only been hand waving arguments by
individuals who have mindlessly accepted the prevailing wisdom without
questioning it. If anyone provides a significant rebuttal that cannot be
objectively answered, the material at the Website will be withdrawn.
Challenges to date have revealed only the responder's inadequacy with one
exception for which a correction was provided. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:17 pm |
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On Apr 29, 4:05 pm, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: Esab wrote:
"Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
When a bullet is fired, an explosive charge imparts kinetic energy to
the bullet. That kinetic energy travels with the bullet and is transferred
to the target when the bullet strikes. The question to be answered is where
that kinetic energy resides while the bullet is in flight. It obviously
Kinetic energy is not a substance that is stored. Your question is
based on a category error.
Bob Kolker
Its stored in its concentrated mass. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:05 pm |
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On Apr 29, 5:22 pm, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: mitch.nicolas.raem...@gmail.com wrote:
Its stored in its concentrated mass.
The energy of rest mast is distinct from kinetic energy, or energy of
motion. The original poster asked where the energy of motion is stored.
The energy of motion is not a substance that can be put in a container
like a gas or a liquid.
Bob Kolker
Rest energy is C squared. Gamma energy of moiving mass is above C
squared. The formula is:
E = (Gamma) MC squared
Mitch Raemsch Twice Nobel Laureate 2008 |
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| Robert J. Kolker |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:05 pm |
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Esab wrote:
Quote: "Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
When a bullet is fired, an explosive charge imparts kinetic energy to
the bullet. That kinetic energy travels with the bullet and is transferred
to the target when the bullet strikes. The question to be answered is where
that kinetic energy resides while the bullet is in flight. It obviously
Kinetic energy is not a substance that is stored. Your question is
based on a category error.
Bob Kolker |
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| Robert J. Kolker |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:22 pm |
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mitch.nicolas.raemsch@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Its stored in its concentrated mass.
The energy of rest mast is distinct from kinetic energy, or energy of
motion. The original poster asked where the energy of motion is stored.
The energy of motion is not a substance that can be put in a container
like a gas or a liquid.
Bob Kolker |
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| Y.Porat |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:45 pm |
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On Apr 30, 3:05 am, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: Esab wrote:
"Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
When a bullet is fired, an explosive charge imparts kinetic energy to
the bullet. That kinetic energy travels with the bullet and is transferred
to the target when the bullet strikes. The question to be answered is where
that kinetic energy resides while the bullet is in flight. It obviously
Kinetic energy is not a substance that is stored. Your question is
based on a category error.
Bob Kolker
----------------------
kinetic energy is stored as anyother energy !!!
if you have in mind that kinetic energy is transformed to say heat
and that is why 'it is not stored
than there is some news for you ...
heat is as well --mass in motion !!!
any energy is mass in motion !!
the fucken complicationin understanding that most simple thing
started by a coocked invention that was invenmted
as an ad hock invention to settle the
'problem' that no mass can reach c ' end of silliy quote
the mass of photons is an exception to the rule that no mass can reach
c !!!!!.
the mass of the photons can reach c and it does it
as vast as possible !!
so heat is as well MASS in motion !!!
and a part of ther more general rule that energy
in the general sense - is conserved
got it parrot ?? (sorry the personal insult
but people will not open their parrotong mind
unless kicked in thier ..........
ATB
Y.Porat
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| Eric Gisse |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:56 pm |
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On Apr 29, 11:45 pm, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
Don't respond to write only posters. |
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| Y.Porat |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:02 pm |
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On Apr 30, 10:56 am, Eric Gisse <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Apr 29, 11:45 pm, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
Don't respond to write only posters.
---------------
hey boy!!
i didnt finish to press the 'send'
and you are on my tail
do you sleep sometomes instead of looking for me ??
or may be you are paied by someone for that 'job' ??
or ........ ( ..........
Y.P
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| Y.Porat |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:23 pm |
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On May 1, 6:00 am, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: Pmb wrote:
Not necessarily. I used to think that too but recently, upon more
reflection, it seems to me that the question "where the kinetic energy of a
bullet stored" can have a meaning. If one was to consider the energy flux
through a surface then one would have to locate the energy of the bullet at
the location of the bullet. Odd but true.
I suppose. The question could be asked, where is the motion of the
bullet. Assume the bullet is moving straight at a constant velocity. The
motion of the bullet is a relation between the bullet and some fiduciary
frame of reference, so you might say the motion is stored in the frame
of reference. Or in the bullet. But if the bullet is a rest then in the
frame of reference it has zero kinetic energy. The only energy that the
bullet has inherently is the energy equivalent of its rest mass.
Bob Kolker
-----------------
so why not say that
energy is mass in motion!
now motion might be relative
but that is another queastion !!
so it has **many energies** depending on its
different relative motions ....
ATB
Y.Porat
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| Pmb |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:17 pm |
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"Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f560e135-b977-4db3-b312-576e4b64b971@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 30, 3:05 am, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: Esab wrote:
"Where Is The Kinetic Energy of a Bullet Stored?"
When a bullet is fired, an explosive charge imparts kinetic energy to
the bullet. That kinetic energy travels with the bullet and is
transferred
to the target when the bullet strikes. The question to be answered is
where
that kinetic energy resides while the bullet is in flight. It obviously
Kinetic energy is not a substance that is stored. Your question is
based on a category error.
Bob Kolker
Not necessarily. I used to think that too but recently, upon more
reflection, it seems to me that the question "where the kinetic energy of a
bullet stored" can have a meaning. If one was to consider the energy flux
through a surface then one would have to locate the energy of the bullet at
the location of the bullet. Odd but true.
Consider the energy density of an ideal gas and then picture what the
meaning of the energy density is and how one would define the energy flux
through a surface.
Pete |
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| Robert J. Kolker |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:00 pm |
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Pmb wrote:
Quote:
Not necessarily. I used to think that too but recently, upon more
reflection, it seems to me that the question "where the kinetic energy of a
bullet stored" can have a meaning. If one was to consider the energy flux
through a surface then one would have to locate the energy of the bullet at
the location of the bullet. Odd but true.
I suppose. The question could be asked, where is the motion of the
bullet. Assume the bullet is moving straight at a constant velocity. The
motion of the bullet is a relation between the bullet and some fiduciary
frame of reference, so you might say the motion is stored in the frame
of reference. Or in the bullet. But if the bullet is a rest then in the
frame of reference it has zero kinetic energy. The only energy that the
bullet has inherently is the energy equivalent of its rest mass.
Bob Kolker |
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| Tom Roberts |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:12 pm |
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Pmb wrote:
Quote: On Apr 30, 3:05 am, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Kinetic energy is not a substance that is stored. Your question is
based on a category error.
Not necessarily. I used to think that too but recently, upon more
reflection, it seems to me that the question "where the kinetic energy of a
bullet stored" can have a meaning.
Where is the SPEED of a bullet "stored"???
Any answer about kinetic energy should hold for speed, because they are
directly and inherently related. But it quite clearly is not possible to
"store" speed.
This _IS_ a category error, or equivalent.
Tom Roberts |
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| Mike |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:19 am |
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On Apr 30, 11:12 pm, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Quote: Pmb wrote:
On Apr 30, 3:05 am, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Kinetic energy is not a substance that is stored. Your question is
based on a category error.
Not necessarily. I used to think that too but recently, upon more
reflection, it seems to me that the question "where the kinetic energy of a
bullet stored" can have a meaning.
Where is the SPEED of a bullet "stored"???
Any answer about kinetic energy should hold for speed, because they are
directly and inherently related. But it quite clearly is not possible to
"store" speed.
This _IS_ a category error, or equivalent.
Tom Roberts
Yep, this is a problem Liebniz dealt extensively with when he defined
active, or living, force as mv^2 and tried to udnerstand if this a
quantity that is somehow a real property of substrances.
As it turns out, there is not a dogmatic answer to this as you and
others purport, one way or the other way.
One problem is that mv^2 and for that purpsoe Kinetic energy is frame
dependent. So in a re4lational space-time, this cannot be a real
quantity.
But, in a space-time where absolute velocities are present although
not necessary for solving problems, mv^2 can have a real meaning.
How it is stored? Come on Roberts, you can do better than that.
Unscrew your pen, take out the little srping on the tiip and squeeze
it. Then let it go. This is how KE can be stored.
Fundamental law of mechanics(One of them): change in KE is equal to
work done.
The issue is not where KE is stores. This is a red herring. It is
whether KE is something real in a metaphysical sense.
Leibniz thought it was. Newton thought it wasn't. I think Einstein has
to side with Leibniz.
Mike |
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| Mike |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:55 am |
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On Apr 30, 11:00 pm, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobkol...@comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: Pmb wrote:
Not necessarily. I used to think that too but recently, upon more
reflection, it seems to me that the question "where the kinetic energy of a
bullet stored" can have a meaning. If one was to consider the energy flux
through a surface then one would have to locate the energy of the bullet at
the location of the bullet. Odd but true.
I suppose. The question could be asked, where is the motion of the
bullet. Assume the bullet is moving straight at a constant velocity. The
motion of the bullet is a relation between the bullet and some fiduciary
frame of reference, so you might say the motion is stored in the frame
of reference. Or in the bullet. But if the bullet is a rest then in the
frame of reference it has zero kinetic energy. The only energy that the
bullet has inherently is the energy equivalent of its rest mass.
Bob Kolker
Formal fallacy of conversion.
See mu reply to Roberts.
Stop being dogmatic. It has helped many people become bettr persons.
Mike |
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