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Science Forum Index » Archaeology Forum » 77 mares
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| Peter Alaca |
 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:13 am |
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Guest
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Marsha Levine (2006)
mtDNA and horse domestication: the archaeologist’s cut
In: Marjan Mashkour (ed), Equids in Time and Space.
Papers in Honour of Véra Eisenmann. Oxford. pp 192-201
www.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ml12/download/chap_15_Levine.pdf
Although there are controversial claims
for horse domestication as early as 4500
BC, even by 3000 BC there is no direct
evidence. The earliest undisputed date is
c. 2000 BC, with the chariot burials of
the Sintashta-Petrovka culture on the
Ural steppe. By the mid 2nd millennium BC
burial, textual and iconographic evidence
shows that domestic horses (associated
with chariots) were also known in the
Near East, Egypt and Greece and by 1250
BC they had reached China.
Summary
This paper examines the results of recent
genetics research into the origins of horse
domestication from an archaeological
perspective. Archaeological, ethological and
historical data, used in conjunction with
the results of an analysis of the largest
available horse mtDNA sequence database,
allows us to take interpretation one step
further than previous studies.
Ethological and archaeological
considerations suggest that the earliest
origins of the domestication of the horse
may have been both temporally and spatially
restricted. However, the mtDNA results show
that mares from at least 77 separate
lineages contributed to the modern genetic
pool. This suggests that, as the original
domesticated population expanded, horses
from wild populations were introduced into
the domestic herds.
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p.a. |
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| David |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:20 pm |
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On Apr 29, 11:13 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Quote: Marsha Levine (2006)
mtDNA and horse domestication: the archaeologist’s cut
In: Marjan Mashkour (ed), Equids in Time and Space.
Papers in Honour of Véra Eisenmann. Oxford. pp 192-201www.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ml12/download/chap_15_Levine.pdf
Although there are controversial claims
for horse domestication as early as 4500
BC, even by 3000 BC there is no direct
evidence. The earliest undisputed date is
c. 2000 BC, with the chariot burials of
the Sintashta-Petrovka culture on the
Ural steppe.
...
Domestication of the horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
"However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the
hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian
steppes (evidently centered in Ukraine) at approximately
4000 BC.[1]"
...
David Christainsen |
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| David |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:31 am |
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On May 1, 3:56 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Quote: David wrote: on, 01/05/2008 01:20:
On Apr 29, 11:13 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Marsha Levine (2006)
mtDNA and horse domestication: the archaeologist’s cut
In: Marjan Mashkour (ed), Equids in Time and Space.
Papers in Honour of Véra Eisenmann. Oxford. pp 192-201
>>www.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ml12/download/chap_15_Levine.pdf
Although there are controversial claims
for horse domestication as early as 4500
BC, even by 3000 BC there is no direct
evidence. The earliest undisputed date is
c. 2000 BC, with the chariot burials of
the Sintashta-Petrovka culture on the
Ural steppe.
...
Domestication of the horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
"However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the
hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian
steppes (evidently centered in Ukraine) at approximately
4000 BC.[1]"
What is your point?
A matter of nuance; 4000 BC for horse domestication is much
less controversial than it used to be.
d.c. |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:56 am |
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David wrote: on, 01/05/2008 01:20:
Quote: On Apr 29, 11:13 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Marsha Levine (2006)
mtDNA and horse domestication: the archaeologist’s cut
In: Marjan Mashkour (ed), Equids in Time and Space.
Papers in Honour of Véra Eisenmann. Oxford. pp 192-201
www.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ml12/download/chap_15_Levine.pdf
Although there are controversial claims
for horse domestication as early as 4500
BC, even by 3000 BC there is no direct
evidence. The earliest undisputed date is
c. 2000 BC, with the chariot burials of
the Sintashta-Petrovka culture on the
Ural steppe.
...
Domestication of the horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
"However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the
hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian
steppes (evidently centered in Ukraine) at approximately
4000 BC.[1]"
What is your point? |
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| David |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:00 am |
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Guest
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On May 1, 9:10 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Quote: ...
Yes it is. Read Levine's chapter and the wikipedia
article you referred to again. There are eg in the
wiki article no citations given for the 4800-4400 BCdating. As Levine writes: There is no direct evidence
for it. The earliest undisputed date is c. 2000 BC.
So everything else is speculation.
...
"A Chronological History of Humans and Their Relationship
With the Horse"
http://www.imh.org/museum/history.php?chapter=12
"While the date of 2,000 BCE represents the earliest
definitive date for domestication, most experts now feel
that horses were domesticated around 4,000 BCE.
Extensive studies of the Botai culture in northern
Kazakhstan suggest that the horse was domesticated
here by around 3600-3100 BCE."
"One of the reasons that the date of horse domestication
is so much more difficult to establish than that of other
domesticated animals is that little physical change
occurred in early domesticated horses as opposed
to their wild counterparts."
Quote: And as I said earlier: You are obsessed with controversies.
Science is not about controversies, but about new insights
based on evidence.
...
May you find the cause of your ignorance on this matter.
d.c. |
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| David |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:04 am |
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On May 1, 12:46 pm, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Quote: David wrote: on, 01/05/2008 16:00:
On May 1, 9:10 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
...
Yes it is. Read Levine's chapter and the wikipedia
article you referred to again. There are eg in the
wiki article no citations given for the 4800-4400 BCdating. As Levine writes: There is no direct evidence
for it. The earliest undisputed date is c. 2000 BC.
So everything else is speculation.
...
"A Chronological History of Humans and Their Relationship
With the Horse"
http://www.imh.org/museum/history.php?chapter=12
"While the date of 2,000 BCE represents the earliest
definitive date for domestication, most experts now feel
Feeling is no science.
that horses were domesticated around 4,000 BCE.
Extensive studies of the Botai culture in northern
Kazakhstan suggest that the horse was domesticated
here by around 3600-3100 BCE."
"One of the reasons that the date of horse domestication
is so much more difficult to establish than that of other
domesticated animals is that little physical change
occurred in early domesticated horses as opposed
to their wild counterparts."
Do you know what the Levine artcle is about?
It is about genetic diversity.
Did you read it, or even the summary?
Yes, I read the Levine artcle . OTOH you did not consult -
Domestication of the horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
"Whether one adopts the narrower zoological definition of
domestication
or the broader cultural definition that rests on an array of
zoological and
archaeological evidence affects the time frame chosen for
domestication
of the horse. The date of 4000 BC is based on evidence that includes
the
appearance of dental pathologies associated with bitting, changes in
butchering practices, changes in human economies and settlement
patterns, the depiction of horses as symbols of power in artifacts,
and
the appearance of horse bones in human graves.[2]"
2. ^ Anthony, David W. The Horse, the Wheel, and Language. How
Bronze Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern
World, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2007.
What you said about everything else being speculation
is untrue.
Quote: And as I said earlier: You are obsessed with controversies.
Science is not about controversies, but about new insights
based on evidence.
...
May you find the cause of your ignorance on this matter.
May you visit a shrink as soon as possible.
Cheap gibes are your trademark.
d.c. |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:10 am |
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David wrote: on, 01/05/2008 14:31:
Quote: On May 1, 3:56 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
David wrote: on, 01/05/2008 01:20:
On Apr 29, 11:13 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
Marsha Levine (2006)
mtDNA and horse domestication: the archaeologist’s cut
In: Marjan Mashkour (ed), Equids in Time and Space.
Papers in Honour of Véra Eisenmann. Oxford. pp 192-201
www.arch.cam.ac.uk/~ml12/download/chap_15_Levine.pdf
Although there are controversial claims
for horse domestication as early as 4500
BC, even by 3000 BC there is no direct
evidence. The earliest undisputed date is
c. 2000 BC, with the chariot burials of
the Sintashta-Petrovka culture on the
Ural steppe.
...
Domestication of the horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
"However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the
hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian
steppes (evidently centered in Ukraine) at approximately
4000 BC.[1]"
What is your point?
A matter of nuance; 4000 BC for horse domestication is much
less controversial than it used to be.
Yes it is. Read Levine's chapter and the wikipedia
article you referred to again. There are eg in the
wiki article no citations given for the 4800-4400 BC
dating. As Levine writes: There is no direct evidence
for it. The earliest undisputed date is c. 2000 BC.
So everything else is speculation.
And as I said earlier: You are obsessed with controversies.
Science is not about controversies, but about new insights
based on evidence.
--
p.a. |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:46 am |
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Guest
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David wrote: on, 01/05/2008 16:00:
Quote: On May 1, 9:10 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
...
Yes it is. Read Levine's chapter and the wikipedia
article you referred to again. There are eg in the
wiki article no citations given for the 4800-4400 BCdating. As Levine writes: There is no direct evidence
for it. The earliest undisputed date is c. 2000 BC.
So everything else is speculation.
...
"A Chronological History of Humans and Their Relationship
With the Horse"
http://www.imh.org/museum/history.php?chapter=12
"While the date of 2,000 BCE represents the earliest
definitive date for domestication, most experts now feel
Feeling is no science.
Quote: that horses were domesticated around 4,000 BCE.
Extensive studies of the Botai culture in northern
Kazakhstan suggest that the horse was domesticated
here by around 3600-3100 BCE."
"One of the reasons that the date of horse domestication
is so much more difficult to establish than that of other
domesticated animals is that little physical change
occurred in early domesticated horses as opposed
to their wild counterparts."
Do you know what the Levine artcle is about?
It is about genetic diversity.
Did you read it, or even the summary?
Quote: And as I said earlier: You are obsessed with controversies.
Science is not about controversies, but about new insights
based on evidence.
...
May you find the cause of your ignorance on this matter.
May you visit a shrink as soon as possible. |
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