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Science Forum Index » Languages Forum » Phonetic features of Berlin ich-laut
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| Ruud Harmsen |
 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:21 am |
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Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:10:32 +0200: Joachim Pense <snob@pense-mainz.eu>:
in sci.lang:
Quote: I wonder what the rule in the Berlin dialect is: "Ich" ends with a [k],
but "weiblich" with, as you describe it, something between [S] and [C].
Berlin is a mixture area between High-German and Low-Saxon dialect
area. Peter Schlobinksi, in a little book I once bought, has a chapter
entitled:
"Ich liebe dir, ick liebe dich, wie't richtig heißt, dit weeß ick
nich".
(This is about confusing Dativ and Akkusativ, of course, but it also
illustrates some other points. Confer the Dutch version.
".... dat weet ik niet".
So in some words (ik and also ikke) we Dutch have the same sounds,
without Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung, but we have "weet" and not
"weess". (Confer English "to wit", which is a remnant of the same
word).
Also strange is that German "alles" is "allet" in Berlinisch, but in
Dutch this is also "alles", although we have "dit" and "dat" as in
Berlin.
Quote: BTW, [S] replacing standard [C] is common in west middle German dialects,
too, /
Yes, some people in nl.taal (where the thread actually started)
mentioned Saarland and Elsaß.
Quote: so they make jokes about Mainzers not being able to see the difference
between Kirche (church) and Kirsche (cherry) or Helmut Kohl
hypercorrecting "Geschichte" to "Gechichte".
--
Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com |
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| Trond Engen |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:34 am |
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Ruud Harmsen skreiv:
Quote: 30 Apr 2008 01:10:39 GMT: Wolfgang Schwanke <see@sig.nature>: in
sci.lang:
To my ear it's a sound halfway between [C] and [S].
I was waiting for someone to mention this, but nobody does, so I'll do
it myself: could it be that sounds that occurs in Polish, and it
written as an s with an acute accent?
A Polish or Sorbian substratum effect? But wouldn't that be more likely
in High German [C]-s rather than Low German [k]-s? Is it part of a
Silesian or Saxon element in the city dialect?
How do the rural dialects of Brandenburg treat the -ich/-ik endings?
--
Trond Engen
- never been there, doesn't speak the language, should keep his mouth |
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| mb |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:38 am |
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On Apr 30, 9:18 am, "Peter T. Daniels"
...
Quote: Because in normal communication, you might sometimes
need to refer to a female person who happens to be of the same
nationality as you.
Go learn some English. The last word in your sentence makes no sense.
Come on, you have discredited yourself long ago as an authority on
correct English.-
I'm not talking about "correct." I'm talking about interpretable.
You are saying that "you" in that sentence is not interpretable.
Strange: Us furriners had no problem interpreting it, but we'll gladly
defer to the natives if you get one or more to second you. |
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| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:03 am |
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On Apr 30, 2:38 pm, mb <azyth...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Apr 30, 9:18 am, "Peter T. Daniels"
...
Because in normal communication, you might sometimes
need to refer to a female person who happens to be of the same
nationality as you.
Go learn some English. The last word in your sentence makes no sense..
Come on, you have discredited yourself long ago as an authority on
correct English.-
I'm not talking about "correct." I'm talking about interpretable.
You are saying that "you" in that sentence is not interpretable.
Strange: Us furriners had no problem interpreting it, but we'll gladly
defer to the natives if you get one or more to second you.
You really are stupid. I said (in the unedited version) that the final
word "sometimes" was uninterpretable in the sentence to which the
comment was appended. |
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| António Marques |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:42 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Quote: 30 Apr 2008 01:10:39 GMT: Wolfgang Schwanke <see@sig.nature>: in
sci.lang:
To my ear it's a sound halfway between [C] and [S].
I was waiting for someone to mention this, but nobody does, so I'll do
it myself: could it be that sounds that occurs in Polish, and it
written as an s with an acute accent?
But would that be heard as being halfway between [C] and [S]?
I *think* [C] and [S] can be articulated simultaneously.
--
António Marques
* This signature does not include a prefab parting phrase *
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
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| Christian Weisgerber |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:00 am |
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Joachim Pense <snob@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
Quote: BTW, [S] replacing standard [C] is common in west middle German dialects,
too, so they make jokes about Mainzers not being able to see the difference
between Kirche (church) and Kirsche (cherry) or Helmut Kohl
hypercorrecting "Geschichte" to "Gechichte".
I have yet to make sense of the [C], [S;], [S] situation.
A while back I cornered a Pole and had him demonstrate the difference
between [S;] <s acute> and [S] <sz>. He thought [S;] was just like
the German ich-Laut /C/ and it sounded like that to me, too.
I recently listened again to the "Sounds of the IPA", and it struck
me that [C] doesn't sound like /C/, but again [S;] does.
Confusingly, somebody over in de.etc.sprache.misc mentioned that
it was Helmut Kohl's realization of German /S/ that was a good
example of [S;]. Since I'm from the same city as Kohl, I should
share his accent. I'm highly uncertain whether I distinguish /C/
and /S/ at all in my own speech in German.
Back in the 1980s, one of my German teachers chastised me for
supposedly pronouncing <ich> with /S/. I took a dim view of her
opinion at the time, because she had been repatriated from Transylvania
and spoke herself with what sounded like a foreign accent to me.
I guess a merger of /C/ and /S/ into [S;] could sound like a
substitution of /S/ for /C/ to some people, and the reverse for
others.
PS: I'm not sure whether [S;] is the proper Kirshenbaum symbol.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de |
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