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ZerkonX
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:09 am
Guest
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:13:26 -0700, turtoni wrote:

Quote:
"Humanism clearly rejects deference to supernatural beliefs in resolving
human affairs but not necessarily the beliefs themselves;

Yes...

Humanism is many things to many people much like religion. Actually the
distinction made by the category "humanism" seems to force an unrealistic
divide.

The United States and Europe essentially adopted liberal humanism as the
philosophical bases for government. This was a basis for toleration more
than rejection. So an individual could use whatever supernatural belief
but the state, ideally, could not.
ZerkonX
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:26 am
Guest
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:50:45 -0400, tooly wrote:

Quote:
First, it gives no justification for altruistic
behavior. If we are to be rational, then we look to 'self interest'.

'Self interest' should not be confused with 'selfish interests'. for
instance, long ago in a country far, far away, there was a mentality, or
moral civic that said: If you violate the right of one, you violate the
rights of all. There is nothing idealistic about this. It is a practical
and sensible viewpoint.

Another excellent example was in the film "A Man for All Seasons". The
question was, "should the devil be protected by the law." The argument
was yes because human laws make human society, once they are withdrawn
for even the devil they then could be withdrawn for anyone. So it was a
matter of self protection.

So...
Quote:
we do not steal under humanism, not because it is 'wrong', but because
we might get caught and go to jail.

is not the only reason, another is "if can steal from you, you can steal
from me"

Quote:
Third, humanism and science is totally material in scope.

Human dignity is not a material matter.
tooly
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:56 pm
Guest
"turtoni" <turtoni@fastmail.net> wrote in message
news:60bb225e-0af9-480a-a737-d923f64a1151@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 29, 11:50 am, "tooly" <rd...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Quote:
"turtoni" <turt...@fastmail.net> wrote in message

news:860c77cf-edce-48a7-8395-d63a37ca0df4@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
"Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the
dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine
right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities — particularly
rationality.[1][2] It is a component of a variety of more specific
philosophical systems and is incorporated into several religious
schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for
truth and morality through human means in support of human interests.
In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects
the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on
belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine
origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality
of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and
cultural problems cannot be parochial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Problems with Humanism. First, it gives no justification for altruistic
behavior. If we are to be rational, then we look to 'self interest'. In
that 'self interest', a great many antisocial behaviors can be justified.
To understand this, look to how top execs for a corporation 'must' think.
Corporations are 'legal entities', but have no 'moral' base, and act
without
human moral code, in that ownership is spread over many individuals who
need
to see profit [the only justification for reasoning]. Oh, corporations may
act nobably, but only for sake of public relations, which again is
justified
on the bottom line of profit to the company. Humanism has no higher
plateau
from which it can gain any moral code beyond 'selfishness'. But,
fortunately, it borrows from centuries of evolved empathetic reach that
has
been developed through a reach for God.

Second, it is based upon a shallow understanding of human nature. Freud
defined an upper stage of mental reasoning called the 'super ego' that is
based upon the 'rightness' or the 'wrongness' of situations. Humanism
invalidates this part of our reasoning, leaving us at our 'egotistical'
basis at best, which is the 'rational' mode, where we 'calculate'. Thusly,
we do not steal under humanism, not because it is 'wrong', but because we
might get caught and go to jail. There is no system of law that can be
devised that will cover all aspects of human behavior 24/7, and indeed,
the
only reason it works to begin with is that a population exists with some
moral platitude about right and wrong.

Third, humanism and science is totally material in scope. Materialism
reduces us to superficiality, where beauty is inspired by the 'looks' of a
person rather than their virtue for example, or how much wealth one
accumulates and not their character or even how they obtained the wealth
[drug dealers will be treated with as more respect than priests in a
materialistic society, as long they have the money to pay] etc. It leads
to
decadence and prurient behaviors and gives no higher value for the bottom
teirs of the populations to strive toward. Essentially, materialism
destroys the human spirit [by it's very definition in fact].

Finally, HOPE. Humans are intelligent creatures that can extrapolate base
premise to a wide range of conclusions. Humanism has no object upon which
HOPE itself can be justified, and indeed, as science [it's basic
rationale]
can only base existence upon 'survival', humanism cannot give us any other
reason to survive except that. HOPE dwindles under humanism in time,
leaving people essentially with only FEAR of death to sustain them. .

This is all just off the cuff...and of course, IMHO, which not scholarly.
A
scholar would logically be able to trash humanism with much greater
aplomb.
Humans mean well, but we are all selfish creatures, highly intelligent,
who
can rationalize our way to just about any behavior imaginable. Without a
SELF MAINTAINED system of constraint, I'm afraid we unleash an animal
capable of much power to create 'less than redemtpive' experience to
justify
the continuation of itself.

Question: How can humanism provide justification to individuals to
maintain
this 'self maintained' system of constraint? We are talking about
conscience here. In private moments, where does the individual gain their
'object' of rationale that they 'serve' the human community when it means
SELF being made subservient to anything? Again, without a super ego, but
only a calculating ego with which to reason?

There's more.

Then move to Iran or something?

Why should I move to Iran? This 'was' my culture, founded by my forebears,
rational men all, but holding to a higher power of wisdom to establish a
better way in the world. As rightful inheritor, maybe I'll burn this one
down and start another structure somewhere else, ha. Just kidding of
course, but making a point of the spider that planted it eggs inside the
fly's body. The fly has every right to expell the invading pulpea if it
can.

In fact, We once held our land to be 'under God', while invoking 'rational'
and worldly precepts for workability, while professing idealisms for that
'future' tomorrow, again 'under God' as directing our noble aspirations. We
were a people of high conscience, ready to spill our very blood to right
'WRONGS' we saw, often in our very selves. It has been a hard journey, but
a very 'human' one.

Humanism erradicates this moral underpinning, leaving us cold, and
calculating as mentioned, a society of businessmen, logical robotic
nihlists, and decadent materialistic pleasure seekers. The elites can't see
this, for they are vital to the process, active and robust. The masses
though...are left with little.

I argue that 'CONSCIENCE' "IS" the defining trait of the creature homo
sapiens that gives it any redemptive right to hold itself above the mindless
animals. CONSCIENCE is the defining element of our HUMANITY. And yet, it
comes by way of introspection under a standard of ideal that we have known
to be God. Without that introspection, conscience dwindles...and with it
our very human trait that would give humanism any sense of a greater
compassion.

Again, I ask, what does humanism [and science] provide the individual as a
'standard' against which to judge one's self? All it can do is provide
logical reason itself, and the base premise of life to 'survive'. Once
again...again, I offer Josef Mengele's mindset as the poster child of where
absolute rationality can take us.

Quote:
"Humanism" and "Science" are merely terms for things already in
motion.

You're too late tooly. We have to deal with the future not the past.

??You can build the walls as high as you like but they will be climbed.

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_hYs1jBy8Y

HTH.
Lord Vetinari
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:01 pm
Guest
"turtoni" <turtoni@fastmail.net> wrote in message
news:bca5495a-83de-4555-bf12-53ffe7babe2f@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
: On Apr 29, 4:45 pm, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@ameritech.net> wrote:
: [snip]
: > *************************************
: >
: > Here's a question for ya - Did you have some point and forget to put it
in
: > the post, or are you merely practicing your copy/paste technique?
:
: and your point? exercise your plonker or just don't read it if it
: doesn't interest you?
:
: i wont cry.

Just answer the question, punter. If you cry, we won't give you any
cookies.
Lord Vetinari
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:11 pm
Guest
"ZerkonX" <Z@X.net> wrote in message news:pan.2008.04.30.12.43.52@X.net...
Quote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:26:00 -0400, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
plonk> yet another fucking moron.


On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:20:43 -0500, Lord Vetinari wrote:
You're full of crap, cretin. We know better than you, ignorant one.

!!!

You weren't really agreeing with the cretin then, were you. My darts rarely
miss the board, but shit happens.
Lord Vetinari
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:14 pm
Guest
"turtoni" <turtoni@fastmail.net> wrote in message
news:26e69bc3-556d-4f47-b39c-7526ed4f5645@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

If you can't think well enough to post something actually written by your
sorry ass, don't bother posting. Shit like you is a penny a pound.
Lord Vetinari
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:17 pm
Guest
"J J'onzz" <jonescardiff@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fv82d1$s3v$1@aioe.org...
[snip]
Quote:
Humanists are hardened westernised materialists seeking to promote a
friendly image of themselves and their physicalist creed by presenting
themselves as harmless quasi-New-Agers.

Their knowledge of the realms of human experience is based on the stunted
models of illness, and their ethnocentric rejection of non-westernised
communities is sickening. Humanist's are like the racist National Front -
they claim the flag is their own.

Go back to Mars, you space cadet you.
Brian E. Clark
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:24 pm
Guest
In article <bca5495a-83de-4555-bf12-
53ffe7babe2f@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, turtoni
said...

Quote:
Here's a question for ya - Did you have some point and forget to put it in
the post, or are you merely practicing your copy/paste technique?

and your point?

To be frank, the point is we don't need another cut-n-
paste gremlin on alt.atheism. Readers are capable to
look up the word "humanism" on Wikipedia for
themselves if they wish.

If you had added some additional insight or
commentary, based on the quoted material, that would
be different.

Quote:
exercise your plonker or just don't read it if it
doesn't interest you?

No, Usenet abuse is not justified by the existence of
killfiles, no more than theft is justified by the
existence of jails.


--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Brian E. Clark
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:28 pm
Guest
In article <yKKRj.6121$ko5.5443@news-
server.bigpond.net.au>, Don H said...

Quote:
Due to the many crimes committed by the Mad Ape, as
compared with our Animal Relatives, even the tiger and
the shark [...]

Hold on a sec.

When has a tiger or a shark ever committed a crime? Do
the detectives on "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit"
know about this?


--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
turtoni
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:43 pm
Guest
On Apr 30, 3:24 pm, Brian E. Clark <re...@newsgroup.only.please>
wrote:
Quote:
In article <bca5495a-83de-4555-bf12-
53ffe7bab...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, turtoni
said...

Here's a question for ya - Did you have some point and forget to put it in
the post, or are you merely practicing your copy/paste technique?

and your point?

To be frank, the point is we don't need another cut-n-
paste gremlin on alt.atheism. Readers are capable to
look up the word "humanism" on Wikipedia for
themselves if they wish.

If you had added some additional insight or
commentary, based on the quoted material, that would
be different.

exercise your plonker or just don't read it if it
doesn't interest you?

No, Usenet abuse is not justified by the existence of
killfiles, no more than theft is justified by the
existence of jails.

--
-----------
Brian E. Clark


http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/nanny.htm

"Nanny tirelessly monitors forum discussions to make sure that
everyone behaves. Though he is quick to admonish for off-topic
messages and petty squabbling, he is generally slow to anger. Rather
than wading into pitched battles, Nanny simply pulling the plug on
combatants and bans repeat offenders.Weaker Warriors such as Innocence
Abused, Weenie and Crybaby will run to Nanny for protection in the
midst of battle.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/netiquettenazi.htm

"Netiquette Nazi is in control and does not tolerate back talk,
especially from a sniveling worm like you. She demands the strictest
adherence forum protocols and rules of engagement . If you deviate in
the slightest you WILL be punished. Even Admin is careful not to
attract her ire."
turtoni
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:48 pm
Guest
ok. i admit defeat. i'm an alt.athesim plonker. have fun ;-)

"For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He
regards all challenges as barbarians at the gates. His unflagging
tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the
opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter
can't understand why he is universally loathed."

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm
Smiler
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:57 pm
Guest
"turtoni" <turtoni@fastmail.net> wrote in message
news:bca5495a-83de-4555-bf12-53ffe7babe2f@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 29, 4:45 pm, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@ameritech.net> wrote:
Quote:
"turtoni" <turt...@fastmail.net> wrote in message

news:860c77cf-edce-48a7-8395-d63a37ca0df4@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
"Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the
dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine
right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities — particularly
rationality.[1][2] It is a component of a variety of more specific
philosophical systems and is incorporated into several religious
schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for
truth and morality through human means in support of human interests.
In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects
the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on
belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine
origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality
of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and
cultural problems cannot be parochial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

*HTH any nuts in alt.atheism

(*hope that helps)

*************************************

Here's a question for ya - Did you have some point and forget to put it in
the post, or are you merely practicing your copy/paste technique?

and your point? exercise your plonker

++You are a plonker!

++Smiler,
++The godless one
++a.a.# 2279
Smiler
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:59 pm
Guest
"Lord Vetinari" <vetinari@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:CB3Sj.486$nW2.308@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
Quote:
"J J'onzz" <jonescardiff@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fv82d1$s3v$1@aioe.org...
[snip]
Humanists are hardened westernised materialists seeking to promote a
friendly image of themselves and their physicalist creed by presenting
themselves as harmless quasi-New-Agers.

Their knowledge of the realms of human experience is based on the stunted
models of illness, and their ethnocentric rejection of non-westernised
communities is sickening. Humanist's are like the racist National Front -
they claim the flag is their own.

Go back to Mars, you space cadet you.

Mars? More like Uranus...
His anus, actually.

Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
turtoni
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:42 pm
Guest
On Apr 30, 3:24 pm, Brian E. Clark <re...@newsgroup.only.please>
wrote:

Quote:
No, Usenet abuse is not justified by the existence of
killfiles, no more than theft is justified by the
existence of jails.

Funnily enough i can trace some of my posts back to at least 1998
after/since the time i was working under Tim Berners-Lee boss (Judy)
at Cern and i've been on and off banging around in usenet since then.

I've learnt many a lesson like:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

I commited no usenet abuse in this instance by posting and quoting an
article without adding any of my own thoughts (which strictly isn't
true since it was my idea to post it for my own reasons and that is a
thought(s) )

If that's not your cup of tea. Bascially it's tought shit. Learn how
to use a killfile and get a good newsreader if it brothers you so
much. Or contact Deja and/or my service provider to see if I've
actually committed an abuse as you stated. I'll be more than happy to
respond.

You do not have much ability to control alt.atheism.., not that i
intend to continue posting there and getting into your meaning giving
soap opera's. Beeen there, done that. I prefer to share information i
find interesting, quotes or no quotes with interested people.

If you're looking for a dating group or jerk circle then perhaps you
should create your own moderated group.

HTH.
ZerkonX
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:18 am
Guest
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:02:27 +0100, J Jones wrote:

Quote:
Humanists are

a false separate camp unless you, yourself, make them or it so.
You can not live in Europe or the US, among other places, without being a
humanist on some level. We take it too much for granted to notice this
sometimes.

Absolute division, here, is for the sake of contention.
 
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