So God existed before existence existed?

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.

duke, brainwashed dumbass

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rprb14t5vh61oga595ol3ebri8lfnhrsoj@4ax.com...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere.org
wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.

no such thing as god duke, there is no god

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:38:01 -0500, duke wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere.org
wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer." Pope Paul VI
*****


Good for you.
What does it mean for God to exist?

How do you relate to God?
Is it necessary for God to exist?
Shouldn't it be acceptable as well
if God makes existence possible
and is not created to exist?

On the other hand,
if you are talking about Jesus Christ,
He should have existed and should exist.

What does it mean for Jesus Christ to exist?

monkfish wrote:

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?

I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

"Methods" of any description are not fact, but a procedure, Bob. Also

Fred Jones wrote:
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:f0b53$48117c9a$d1d89a73$3496@PRIMUS.CA...
"Fred Jones" <supportsystem@juno.com> wrote in message
news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's
flood? And
have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might
actually
mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore
Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people
understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand
that Mt.
Everest was never covered in flood water,

Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the
known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

The "known world" did not know about the America's yet either. Your
argument is
weak like you. The myth of the flood says the whole earth was covered. In
fact
Genesis 7:20 says the mountains were covered. It does not say only half
covered,
it says covered. So you are implying the flood was contained in some kind
of
bubble so that the flood was only in the local geological area. That
means the
story is just that a story. It is a lie.

It also shows, if we take the other argument, god was
ignorant of the existence of Mt. Everest.

No. I guess we need to congratulate both of you again on believing in

"Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message

news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood?
And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might
actually mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and
intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water,

Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

In those times, people thought the world was flat and you would fall

---------------------

"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddr...@att.net> wrote in message

news:29c9df58-e10f-4b74-9847-d885793b3141@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 24, 11:02 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:> "Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message

news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood?
And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might
actually mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and
intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth..
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water,

Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

In those times, people thought the world was flat and you would fall
off the edge if you ventured too far out.
Did Jesus think the world was flat, or was he wiser than that?
-Bill

---------------------
    How do YOU know the world isn't flat, ...unless you BELIEVE and have
FAITH in someone who tells you that? If someone told you the earth is round,
will you believe that sans evidence? How do you know he didn't mean it's
"round" like a hockey puck?
    It's only your BELIEF and FAITH which makes the difference between right
and wrong.

"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddress@att.net> wrote in message
news:29c9df58-e10f-4b74-9847-d885793b3141@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 24, 11:02 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message

news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood?
And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible
might
actually mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and
intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water,

Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

In those times, people thought the world was flat and you would fall
off the edge if you ventured too far out.
Did Jesus think the world was flat, or was he wiser than that?
-Bill

For most people the world is pretty much flat. For me it's concave,

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:03:13 -0500, bob young wrote:

Pastor Frank wrote:

"Fred Jones" <supportsystem@juno.com> wrote in message
news:75WdnSxg4LF7-IzVnZ2dnUVZ_r2nnZ2d@comcast.com...
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:B9GdnZsPVvR-2YzVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Love, what did I misunderstand then.

You think you know what God is
and you also think that
the god as you know it is imaginary.
That does not mean God is imaginary.
It just means you misunderstood God.
Now tell me what you think God is.

Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no devil.
There is no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no
demons. There are no twenty four elders.There was not a world wide
flood. There was no talking donkey. The book is fiction.

Typical atheist to define the world by what is NOT.

Well NOW's your chance to define what *is* - define [prove] the
existence of Jesus and his all powerful dad LOL

in fact ROFLMAO


God is prior to existence.

--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:11:08 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:42:19 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story
of Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this
story's position in the Bible might actually mean?
While there are many people who consider the Bible,
and therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the
story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that
Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water, they
understand that the ark could not hold the millions of
species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that
all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs
just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something
about God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent
person who takes the time to consider his actions.
That special section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If
God were to exist, God would know what was coming when
he created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would
be murdering millions of people. This realization
leads to an obvious question: Why didn't God simply
speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is
the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when
he created them to completely circumvent the need for
such a horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an
atrocity of the highest order. It is mass murder on a
global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer
as their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By
(supposedly) murdering nearly every human on the
planet, the Christian God is far more heinous than
Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can also be a
mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet Christians
willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God
displays these horrific tendencies toward mindless
slaughter. Here are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the
firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the
firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to
the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even
the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh
and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up
during the night, and loud wailing was heard
throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single
house where someone had not died. Here the death of
the children is directly at the hand of God. In Isaiah
chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young
people with arrows. They will have no mercy on
helpless babies and will show no compassion for the
children. Is this the imprint of a "loving" God? In
Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar
picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made
against Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged
away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their
fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall
tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the
Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar
picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has
rebelled against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped
open. In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar
picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women
live? Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or,
and so the plague came among the congregation of the
LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying
with him. But all the young girls who have not known
man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Here
Moses, acting as an agent of God, specifies that
thousands of male babies and children be killed, as
well as thousands of women. The Bible states in verse
35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man
by lying with him." This was not a small attack. Tens
of thousands men, women and children were massacred.
In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle
at Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of
him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole
army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon
king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the
LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of
Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving
no survivors. At that time we took all his cities.
There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom
in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high
walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a
great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed
them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon,
destroying every city-men, women and children. But all
the livestock and the plunder from their cities we
carried off for ourselves. They massacred all the men,
women and children in 60 cities at God's request. Even
in the "New Testament" we find the same sort of thing.
In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the
Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing
massacre of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when
they had opened their treasures, they presented unto
him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being
warned of God in a dream that they should not return
to Herod, they departed into their own country another
way. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of
the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying,
Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and
flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee
word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy
him. When he arose, he took the young child and his
mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was
there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then Herod,
when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was
exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the
children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts
thereof, from two years old and under, according to
the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise
men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by
Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a
voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great
mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would
not be comforted, because they are not. Think about
the thousands of families who were affected by this
massacre. The Bible describes their suffering: they
wept and could not be comforted. Of course they could
not be comforted. If you are a parent, you know
exactly how distraught you would feel if an agent of
the government came to your door one morning and
slaughtered your children. Why would God do this? Why
would you want anything to do with such a muderous,
horrific being? What can we say about people who would
want to believe in such a being? Why would any normal,
intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to
also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If
the only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding
that it can't be taken on its own merits." [Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you
really think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read
any book on philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was
not designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like
that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can
you be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real
christian? How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If
you were in a room standing next to some body would you know if
that person is a christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent
by god to correct you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I
were an angle and obey the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do
you know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there
angles? Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is? How
do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?
Is an action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?

To disobey God.

"My child, my child, no god has ever given you an instruction, every
godlike instruction you have ever been given has been given to you by
another human.

That is why we keep telling you to grow up.

Oh....and your one line responses are becoming so predictable, so weak,
[or cute] or vacillating it it getting near time to pull the plug on
monkfish.

You are playing with the toy god
people abandoned thousands years ago.
No wonder it does not move.

We are talking about God for grownups here.
To do so, you need to understand
what it means for time to be prior to existence.
Can you do that?

--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.

On Apr 28, 4:14�pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddr...@att.net> wrote in message

news:29c9df58-e10f-4b74-9847-d885793b3141@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 24, 11:02 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:> "Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message

news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood?
And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might
actually mean? While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and
intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water,

Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

In those times, people thought the world was flat and you would fall
off the edge if you ventured too far out.
Did Jesus think the world was flat, or was he wiser than that?
-Bill

---------------------
� � How do YOU know the world isn't flat, ...unless you BELIEVE and have
FAITH in someone who tells you that? If someone told you the earth is round,
will you believe that sans evidence? How do you know he didn't mean it's
"round" like a hockey puck?
� � It's only your BELIEF and FAITH which makes the difference between right
and wrong.

I know the world is round because if I go 2000 miles west, high noon
(sun directly overhead) will be about 2 hours offset from a reference
point. The earth rotates at about 900 nautical miles per hour, so it's
an easy calculation to figure out the distance around the earth and
prove it's a sphere.

How would you interpret this?

Revelation 7:1

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners
of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind
should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

-Bill

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rprb14t5vh61oga595ol3ebri8lfnhrsoj@4ax.com...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere.org
wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.

no such thing as god duke, there is no god

"There is no god" of YOUR definition, for I have a whole display cabinet

monkfish wrote:
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:03:13 -0500, bob young wrote:
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Fred Jones" <supportsystem@juno.com> wrote in message
news:75WdnSxg4LF7-IzVnZ2dnUVZ_r2nnZ2d@comcast.com...
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:B9GdnZsPVvR-2YzVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Love, what did I misunderstand then.

You think you know what God is
and you also think that
the god as you know it is imaginary.
That does not mean God is imaginary.
It just means you misunderstood God.
Now tell me what you think God is.

Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no
devil.
There is no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no
demons. There are no twenty four elders.There was not a world wide
flood. There was no talking donkey. The book is fiction.

Typical atheist to define the world by what is NOT.

Well NOW's your chance to define what *is* - define [prove] the
existence of Jesus and his all powerful dad LOL
in fact ROFLMAO

God is prior to existence.

Prove it

Read John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the word (an abstraction of an