In what language does the ultimate reality talk to us?

Mathematics?
Poetry?
The ordinary language?

Music.

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:45:47 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnSZ8vdjLpIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:42:19 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story
of Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this
story's position in the Bible might actually mean?
While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the
story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that
Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water, they
understand that the ark could not hold the millions of
species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that
all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs
just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something
about God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent
person who takes the time to consider his actions. That
special section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God
were to exist, God would know what was coming when he
created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be
murdering millions of people. This realization leads to
an obvious question: Why didn't God simply speed up
Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is the flood?
Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he created
them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity
of the highest order. It is mass murder on a global
scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer
as their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By
(supposedly) murdering nearly every human on the
planet, the Christian God is far more heinous than
Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can also be a
mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet Christians
willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God
displays these horrific tendencies toward mindless
slaughter. Here are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the
firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn
son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn
son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn
of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his
officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during
the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the
land of Egypt. There was not a single house where
someone had not died. Here the death of the children is
directly at the hand of God. In Isaiah chapter 13, God
paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young
people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless
babies and will show no compassion for the children. Is
this the imprint of a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter
49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made
against Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged
away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their
fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall
tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the
Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar
picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has
rebelled against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or,
and so the plague came among the congregation of the
LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying
with him. But all the young girls who have not known
man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Here
Moses, acting as an agent of God, specifies that
thousands of male babies and children be killed, as
well as thousands of women. The Bible states in verse
35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by
lying with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of
thousands men, women and children were massacred. In
Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him,
for I have handed him over to you with his whole army
and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of
the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our
God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all
his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At
that time we took all his cities. There was not one of
the sixty cities that we did not take from them-the
whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All
these cities were fortified with high walls and with
gates and bars, and there were also a great many
unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we
had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every
city-men, women and children. But all the livestock and
the plunder from their cities we carried off for
ourselves. They massacred all the men, women and
children in 60 cities at God's request. Even in the
"New Testament" we find the same sort of thing. In the
book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the Christmas
story, the Bible describes an amazing massacre of
thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when
they had opened their treasures, they presented unto
him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being
warned of God in a dream that they should not return to
Herod, they departed into their own country another
way. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of
the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise,
and take the young child and his mother, and flee into
Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for
Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he
arose, he took the young child and his mother by night,
and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death
of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken
of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I
called my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was
mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent
forth, and slew all the children that were in
Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two
years old and under, according to the time which he had
diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled
that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and
weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her
children, and would not be comforted, because they are
not. Think about the thousands of families who were
affected by this massacre. The Bible describes their
suffering: they wept and could not be comforted. Of
course they could not be comforted. If you are a
parent, you know exactly how distraught you would feel
if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children. Why would God do
this? Why would you want anything to do with such a
muderous, horrific being? What can we say about people
who would want to believe in such a being? Why would
any normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship"
such a heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to
also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding
that it can't be taken on its own merits." [Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you
really think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read
any book on philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can
you be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real
christian? How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you
were in a room standing next to some body would you know if that
person is a christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent by
god to correct you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I
were an angle and obey the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do
you know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there angles?
Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is? How
do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?
Is an action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?


To disobey God.

And now you see one of the basic differences between us. I do not
recognize your god, there for I commit no sin.


You are like a fool who is proud to be color blind
and thinks that he can ignore all traffic signals.

Shouldn't you do everything to figure out
how to read traffic signals instead?

Done that did the math. False is that false does. If this god is real it leads

--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.

Pastor Frank wrote:

"Fred Jones" <supportsystem@juno.com> wrote in message
news:75WdnSxg4LF7-IzVnZ2dnUVZ_r2nnZ2d@comcast.com...
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:B9GdnZsPVvR-2YzVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Love, what did I misunderstand then.

You think you know what God is
and you also think that
the god as you know it is imaginary.
That does not mean God is imaginary.
It just means you misunderstood God.
Now tell me what you think God is.

Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no devil.
There is no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no
demons. There are no twenty four elders.There was not a world wide
flood. There was no talking donkey. The book is fiction.

Typical atheist to define the world by what is NOT.

Well NOW's your chance to define what *is* - define [prove] the
existence of Jesus and his all powerful dad LOL

in fact ROFLMAO

monkfish wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's
position in the Bible might actually mean? While there are
many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's
story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a
myth. They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered
in flood water, they understand that the ark could not
hold the millions of species that are now found on earth,
and they understand that there is no DNA evidence to show
that all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs
just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about
God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who
takes the time to consider his actions. That special
section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions
of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed
to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to
exist, God would know what was coming when he created Adam
and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be murdering
millions of people. This realization leads to an obvious
question: Why didn't God simply speed up Jesus' arrival to
avoid the atrocity that is the flood? Or why didn't God
program Adam and Eve when he created them to completely
circumvent the need for such a horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of
the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly)
murdering nearly every human on the planet, the Christian
God is far more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and
"perfect" being can also be a mass-murderer bent of global
genocide. Yet Christians willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here
are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn
sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of
Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of
the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their
livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all
the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud
wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was
not a single house where someone had not died. Here the
death of the children is directly at the hand of God. In
Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.
Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people
with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies
and will show no compassion for the children. Is this the
imprint of a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter 49, verse
20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even
the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely
their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound
of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their
cry shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13,
God paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed
in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. In
Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and
so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now
therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all
the young girls who have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent
of God, specifies that thousands of male babies and
children be killed, as well as thousands of women. The
Bible states in verse 35 that the captured women numbered
"thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not
known man by lying with him." This was not a small attack.
Tens of thousands men, women and children were massacred.
In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan,
and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for
I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his
land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the
Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God
also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his
army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that
time we took all his cities. There was not one of the
sixty cities that we did not take from them-the whole
region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities
were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars,
and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We
completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king
of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and children.
But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we
carried off for ourselves. They massacred all the men,
women and children in 60 cities at God's request. Even in
the "New Testament" we find the same sort of thing. In the
book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the Christmas
story, the Bible describes an amazing massacre of
thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they
had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts;
gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God
in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they
departed into their own country another way. And when they
were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to
Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child
and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there
until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young
child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young
child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then Herod,
when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was
exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children
that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof,
from two years old and under, according to the time which
he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was
fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,
saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and
weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her
children, and would not be comforted, because they are
not. Think about the thousands of families who were
affected by this massacre. The Bible describes their
suffering: they wept and could not be comforted. Of course
they could not be comforted. If you are a parent, you know
exactly how distraught you would feel if an agent of the
government came to your door one morning and slaughtered
your children. Why would God do this? Why would you want
anything to do with such a muderous, horrific being? What
can we say about people who would want to believe in such
a being? Why would any normal, intelligent, ethical human
being "worship" such a heinous, demented and despicable
"god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to
also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
it can't be taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you really
think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any book on
philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you
be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you were in a
room standing next to some body would you know if that person is a
christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct
you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and
obey the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you
know what it means to be corrected by god.

Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

He is simply throwing back at you the type of stupid stuff you throw at
us
each time you have your back to the wall trying to 'show'
your god.

No we don't hate your god, all we ask is that it 'shows' then all we
athests will be no more..

monkfish wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:42:19 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story
of Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this
story's position in the Bible might actually mean?
While there are many people who consider the Bible,
and therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the
story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that
Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water, they
understand that the ark could not hold the millions of
species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that
all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs
just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something
about God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent
person who takes the time to consider his actions.
That special section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If
God were to exist, God would know what was coming when
he created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would
be murdering millions of people. This realization
leads to an obvious question: Why didn't God simply
speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is
the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when
he created them to completely circumvent the need for
such a horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an
atrocity of the highest order. It is mass murder on a
global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer
as their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By
(supposedly) murdering nearly every human on the
planet, the Christian God is far more heinous than
Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can also be a
mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet Christians
willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God
displays these horrific tendencies toward mindless
slaughter. Here are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the
firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the
firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to
the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even
the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh
and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up
during the night, and loud wailing was heard
throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single
house where someone had not died. Here the death of
the children is directly at the hand of God. In Isaiah
chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young
people with arrows. They will have no mercy on
helpless babies and will show no compassion for the
children. Is this the imprint of a "loving" God? In
Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar
picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made
against Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged
away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their
fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall
tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the
Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar
picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has
rebelled against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped
open. In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar
picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women
live? Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or,
and so the plague came among the congregation of the
LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying
with him. But all the young girls who have not known
man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Here
Moses, acting as an agent of God, specifies that
thousands of male babies and children be killed, as
well as thousands of women. The Bible states in verse
35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man
by lying with him." This was not a small attack. Tens
of thousands men, women and children were massacred.
In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle
at Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of
him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole
army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon
king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the
LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of
Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving
no survivors. At that time we took all his cities.
There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom
in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high
walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a
great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed
them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon,
destroying every city-men, women and children. But all
the livestock and the plunder from their cities we
carried off for ourselves. They massacred all the men,
women and children in 60 cities at God's request. Even
in the "New Testament" we find the same sort of thing.
In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the
Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing
massacre of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when
they had opened their treasures, they presented unto
him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being
warned of God in a dream that they should not return
to Herod, they departed into their own country another
way. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of
the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying,
Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and
flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee
word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy
him. When he arose, he took the young child and his
mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was
there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then Herod,
when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was
exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the
children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts
thereof, from two years old and under, according to
the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise
men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by
Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a
voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great
mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would
not be comforted, because they are not. Think about
the thousands of families who were affected by this
massacre. The Bible describes their suffering: they
wept and could not be comforted. Of course they could
not be comforted. If you are a parent, you know
exactly how distraught you would feel if an agent of
the government came to your door one morning and
slaughtered your children. Why would God do this? Why
would you want anything to do with such a muderous,
horrific being? What can we say about people who would
want to believe in such a being? Why would any normal,
intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to
also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If
the only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding
that it can't be taken on its own merits." [Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you
really think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read
any book on philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was
not designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like
that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can
you be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real
christian? How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If
you were in a room standing next to some body would you know if
that person is a christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent
by god to correct you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I
were an angle and obey the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do
you know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there
angles? Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is? How
do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?
Is an action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?

To disobey God.

"My child, my child, no god has ever given you an instruction, every
godlike instruction you have ever been given has been given to you by
another human.

That is why we keep telling you to grow up.

Oh....and your one line responses are becoming so predictable, so weak,
[or cute] or vacillating it it getting near time to pull the plug on
monkfish.

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

Pastor Frank wrote:

"Fred Jones" <supportsystem@juno.com> wrote in message
news:ub-dnQwAYqyTUIzVnZ2dnUVZ_sCtnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:f0b53$48117c9a$d1d89a73$3496@PRIMUS.CA...
"Fred Jones" <supportsystem@juno.com> wrote in message
news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's
flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the
Bible might actually mean? While there are many people who consider
the Bible, and therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's
flood is a myth. They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered
in flood water,

Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times the
known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

The "known world" did not know about the America's yet either. Your
argument is weak like you. The myth of the flood says the whole earth
was covered. In fact Genesis 7:20 says the mountains were covered. It
does not say only half covered, it says covered. So you are implying
the flood was contained in some kind of bubble so that the flood was
only in the local geological area. That means the story is just that
a story. It is a lie.
The Black See area was flooded up to the mountains, till the water
cut a
channel to the Mediterranean. I think you just love to chant atheist
mantras, all of which are irrelevant to what Jesus Christ is all about.

Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19


The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God The story of Noah
and the flood is only one of many ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It is an
impossible story.

What does it mean for you to sin?

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnVh8vdje3ojVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:45:47 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnSZ8vdjLpIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:42:19 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's
story of Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered
what this story's position in the Bible might
actually mean? While there are many people who
consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's story, to be
literally true, most educated and intelligent people
understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in
flood water, they understand that the ark could not
hold the millions of species that are now found on
earth, and they understand that there is no DNA
evidence to show that all animals on earth came from
single breeding pairs just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something
about God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent
person who takes the time to consider his actions.
That special section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If
God were to exist, God would know what was coming
when he created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he
would be murdering millions of people. This
realization leads to an obvious question: Why didn't
God simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the
atrocity that is the flood? Or why didn't God program
Adam and Eve when he created them to completely
circumvent the need for such a horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it
is exquisitely important. Because the flood is an
atrocity of the highest order. It is mass murder on a
global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer
as their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By
(supposedly) murdering nearly every human on the
planet, the Christian God is far more heinous than
Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can also be a
mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet Christians
willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply
look inside yourself today. Why would you accept a
mass murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God
displays these horrific tendencies toward mindless
slaughter. Here are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the
firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the
firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to
the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even
the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh
and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up
during the night, and loud wailing was heard
throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single
house where someone had not died. Here the death of
the children is directly at the hand of God. In
Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes.
Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by
the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes
against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will
buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down
the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy
on helpless babies and will show no compassion for
the children. Is this the imprint of a "loving" God?
In Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a
similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made
against Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged
away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their
fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall
tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the
Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar
picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has
rebelled against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped
open. In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar
picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women
live? Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of
Pe'or, and so the plague came among the congregation
of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman who has known man
by lying with him. But all the young girls who have
not known man by lying with him, keep alive for
yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent of God,
specifies that thousands of male babies and children
be killed, as well as thousands of women. The Bible
states in verse 35 that the captured women numbered
"thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had
not known man by lying with him." This was not a
small attack. Tens of thousands men, women and
children were massacred. In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we
find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle
at Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of
him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole
army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon
king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the
LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of
Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving
no survivors. At that time we took all his cities.
There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's
kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified
with high walls and with gates and bars, and there
were also a great many unwalled villages. We
completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon
king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and
children. But all the livestock and the plunder from
their cities we carried off for ourselves. They
massacred all the men, women and children in 60
cities at God's request. Even in the "New Testament"
we find the same sort of thing. In the book of
Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the Christmas story,
the Bible describes an amazing massacre of thousands
of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw
the young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when
they had opened their treasures, they presented unto
him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And
being warned of God in a dream that they should not
return to Herod, they departed into their own country
another way. And when they were departed, behold, the
angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream,
saying, Arise, and take the young child and his
mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until
I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young
child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the
young child and his mother by night, and departed
into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I
called my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was
mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent
forth, and slew all the children that were in
Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two
years old and under, according to the time which he
had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was
fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the
prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard,
lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel
weeping for her children, and would not be comforted,
because they are not. Think about the thousands of
families who were affected by this massacre. The
Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could
not be comforted. Of course they could not be
comforted. If you are a parent, you know exactly how
distraught you would feel if an agent of the
government came to your door one morning and
slaughtered your children. Why would God do this? Why
would you want anything to do with such a muderous,
horrific being? What can we say about people who
would want to believe in such a being? Why would any
normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship"
such a heinous, demented and despicable "god" as
this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being
to also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If
the only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding
that it can't be taken on its own merits." [Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you
really think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read
any book on philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was
not designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like
that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can
you be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real
christian? How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If
you were in a room standing next to some body would you know if
that person is a christian? How do you know I'm not an angle
sent by god to correct you? Would you see the errors in your
ways If I were an angle and obey the great loving god? How would
you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you know
what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there
angles? Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is? How
do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?
Is an action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?


To disobey God.

And now you see one of the basic differences between us. I do not
recognize your god, there for I commit no sin.


You are like a fool who is proud to be color blind and thinks that he
can ignore all traffic signals.

Shouldn't you do everything to figure out how to read traffic signals
instead?

Done that did the math. False is that false does. If this god is real it
leads people to do great atrocities.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:03:13 -0500, bob young wrote:
Pastor Frank wrote:

"Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:75WdnSxg4LF7-IzVnZ2dnUVZ_r2nnZ2d@comcast.com...
"monkfish" <monkf...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:B9GdnZsPVvR-2YzVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:35 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:
"monkfish" <monkf...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also be
heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent person, you
should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Love, what did I misunderstand then.

You think you know what God is
and you also think that
the god as you know it is imaginary.
That does not mean God is imaginary.
It just means you misunderstood God.
Now tell me what you think God is.

Simple. There is no god. There is no jesus christ. There is no devil.
There is no heaven. There is no hell or hell fire. There are no
demons. There are no twenty four elders.There was not a world wide
flood. There was no talking donkey. The book is fiction.

Typical atheist to define the world by what is NOT.

Well NOW's your chance to define what *is* - define [prove] the
existence of Jesus and his all powerful dad LOL

in fact ROFLMAO

God is prior to existence.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:32:23 -0400, SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rprb14t5vh61oga595ol3ebri8lfnhrsoj@4ax.com...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkf...@nowhere.org
wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.

no such thing as god duke, there is no god

Do you know what God is?

monkfish wrote:

In what language does the ultimate reality talk to us?

Mathematics?
Poetry?
The ordinary language?

Music.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere.org
wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer." Pope Paul VI
*****

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:31:45 -0500, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote:

God is rather like time and space
but of course is much more and
is prior to existence.

Are time and space prior to existence?

No, but God is.