On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:47:27 -0700, Bill Bowden wrote:
On Apr 26, 8:41 am, monkfish <monkf...@nowhere.org> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 21:35:04 -0700, Bill Bowden wrote:
On Apr 24, 11:02 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Fred Jones" <supportsys...@juno.com> wrote in message

news:tZCdneIYGb26ho3VnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's
flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's position in
the Bible might actually mean? While there are many people who
consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's story, to be literally
true, most educated and intelligent people understand that the
story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that Mt. Everest
was never covered in flood water,

    Are you a little child who can't figure, that in those times
    the known
world didn't include "Mt. Everest"?

In those times, people thought the world was flat and you would fall
off the edge if you ventured too far out.

Did Jesus think the world was flat, or was he wiser than that?

-Bill

Jesus was fully human.
What do you think?

I guess it's about time for me
to explain the silliness of your flat reasoning much more in detail.

Do you know what it is?

No. Sorry I'm so stupid. Please explain.

BTW, Eratosthenes of Cyrene figured out the world was round about 200BC.
He used a simple approach of measuring the angle of the shadow of a post
at high noon and comparing that to a distant reference point where there
was no shadow. It forms a simple right triangle, where one side is the
distance to the center of the earth.

9th grade math.

-Bill

He could have just gone up a seaside mountain
and seen a ship coming over a horizon
and think.

God does not speak to us directly
in our own language.
What people say about God is their interpretation
of what God might be saying to them.
So, we need to consider the circumstances
of each utterance concerning God.

The flood story is thousands years old.
At that time people had no knowledge of the whole earth.
So whatever God do or say in that story needs
to be interpreted accordingly.

Before we go any further, we need to
figure out what it means for God
to reveal Himself to us.
All depends on what God is I guess.
Whatever it is, in what language
does God talk to us?

In what language does the ultimate reality talk to us?

Mathematics?
Poetry?
The ordinary language?

--
monkfish      

It all depends on what you believe existance to be. Are we here for a

convicted friend "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote:

convicted neighbor Fred Jones wrote:


If I were an angle sent by god how would you know?

Are there angles?

Is there a real devil?

Is there a real hell?

How do you know there is a real hell.

Do you know what sin is?

How do you define sin?

Can you define sin?

If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you?

Is an
action a sin if it against a sinner?

All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's
position in the Bible might actually mean? While there are
many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's
story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood
water, they understand that the ark could not hold the
millions of species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that all
animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just a few
thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about God
that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who takes
the time to consider his actions. That special section is
this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions of
animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed to
be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to exist,
God would know what was coming when he created Adam and Eve.
Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions of people.
This realization leads to an obvious question: Why didn't God
simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is
the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he
created them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of
the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about Christians,
does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly) murdering
nearly every human on the planet, the Christian God is far
more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can
also be a mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet
Christians willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look inside
yourself today. Why would you accept a mass murderer into
your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here are
several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about
one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded
through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons
in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who
sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the
dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.
Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up
during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the
land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had
not died. Here the death of the children is directly at the
hand of God. In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word
picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.
Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes
will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.
For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount
of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies
will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have
no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for
the children. Is this the imprint of a "loving" God? In
Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even
the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely
their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of
their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry
shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God
paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in
pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. In Numbers
chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and so
the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now
therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the
young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep
alive for yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent of God,
specifies that thousands of male babies and children be
killed, as well as thousands of women. The Bible states in
verse 35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by lying
with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of thousands
men, women and children were massacred. In Deuteronomy
Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan,
and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I
have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land.
Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who
reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into our
hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them
down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his
cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in
Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and
with gates and bars, and there were also a great many
unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had
done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men,
women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder
from their cities we carried off for ourselves. They
massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities at
God's request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the same
sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into
the Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing massacre
of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had
opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold,
and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God in a
dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed
into their own country another way. And when they were
departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph
in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his
mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring
thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy
him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by
night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death
of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my
son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise
men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the
children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts
thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time
which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was
fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,
saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and
weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children,
and would not be comforted, because they are not. Think about
the thousands of families who were affected by this massacre.
The Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could not
be comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If you
are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would feel
if an agent of the government came to your door one morning
and slaughtered your children. Why would God do this? Why
would you want anything to do with such a muderous, horrific
being? What can we say about people who would want to believe
in such a being? Why would any normal, intelligent, ethical
human being "worship" such a heinous, demented and despicable
"god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also
be heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent
person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only
way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it
can't be taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you really
think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any book on
philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you be
sure they are real christians? How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you were in a room
standing next to some body would you know if that person is a christian?
How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct you? Would you
see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and obey the great loving
god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you know
what it means to be corrected by god.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's
position in the Bible might actually mean? While there are
many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's
story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood
water, they understand that the ark could not hold the
millions of species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that all
animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just a few
thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about God
that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who takes
the time to consider his actions. That special section is
this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions of
animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed to
be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to exist,
God would know what was coming when he created Adam and Eve.
Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions of people.
This realization leads to an obvious question: Why didn't God
simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is
the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he
created them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of
the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about Christians,
does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly) murdering
nearly every human on the planet, the Christian God is far
more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can
also be a mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet
Christians willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look inside
yourself today. Why would you accept a mass murderer into
your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here are
several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about
one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded
through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons
in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who
sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the
dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.
Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up
during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the
land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had
not died. Here the death of the children is directly at the
hand of God. In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word
picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.
Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes
will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.
For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount
of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies
will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have
no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for
the children. Is this the imprint of a "loving" God? In
Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even
the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely
their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of
their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry
shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God
paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in
pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. In Numbers
chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and so
the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now
therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the
young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep
alive for yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent of God,
specifies that thousands of male babies and children be
killed, as well as thousands of women. The Bible states in
verse 35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by lying
with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of thousands
men, women and children were massacred. In Deuteronomy
Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan,
and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I
have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land.
Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who
reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into our
hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them
down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his
cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in
Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and
with gates and bars, and there were also a great many
unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had
done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men,
women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder
from their cities we carried off for ourselves. They
massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities at
God's request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the same
sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into
the Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing massacre
of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had
opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold,
and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God in a
dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed
into their own country another way. And when they were
departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph
in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his
mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring
thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy
him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by
night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death
of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my
son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise
men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the
children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts
thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time
which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was
fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,
saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and
weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children,
and would not be comforted, because they are not. Think about
the thousands of families who were affected by this massacre.
The Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could not
be comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If you
are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would feel
if an agent of the government came to your door one morning
and slaughtered your children. Why would God do this? Why
would you want anything to do with such a muderous, horrific
being? What can we say about people who would want to believe
in such a being? Why would any normal, intelligent, ethical
human being "worship" such a heinous, demented and despicable
"god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also
be heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent
person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only
way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it
can't be taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you really
think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any book on
philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you be
sure they are real christians? How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you were in a room
standing next to some body would you know if that person is a christian?
How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct you? Would you
see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and obey the great loving
god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you know
what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know?

--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's
position in the Bible might actually mean? While there are
many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's
story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood
water, they understand that the ark could not hold the
millions of species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that all
animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just a few
thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about
God
that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who takes
the time to consider his actions. That special section is
this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions
of
animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed
to
be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to exist,
God would know what was coming when he created Adam and Eve.
Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions of
people.
This realization leads to an obvious question: Why didn't
God
simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is
the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he
created them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of
the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about Christians,
does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly) murdering
nearly every human on the planet, the Christian God is far
more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being
can
also be a mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet
Christians willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside
yourself today. Why would you accept a mass murderer into
your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here
are
several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about
one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded
through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn
sons
in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who
sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in
the
dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.
Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke
up
during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the
land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone
had
not died. Here the death of the children is directly at the
hand of God. In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word
picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.
Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes
will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking
hordes.
For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount
of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies
will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have
no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for
the children. Is this the imprint of a "loving" God? In
Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even
the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely
their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of
their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry
shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God
paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed
in
pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. In Numbers
chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and
so
the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now
therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the
young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep
alive for yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent of God,
specifies that thousands of male babies and children be
killed, as well as thousands of women. The Bible states in
verse 35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by
lying
with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of thousands
men, women and children were massacred. In Deuteronomy
Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan,
and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I
have handed him over to you with his whole army and his
land.
Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who
reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into our
hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them
down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his
cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did
not
take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in
Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and
with gates and bars, and there were also a great many
unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had
done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men,
women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder
from their cities we carried off for ourselves. They
massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities at
God's request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the same
sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into
the Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing massacre
of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young
child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had
opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold,
and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God in a
dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed
into their own country another way. And when they were
departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph
in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his
mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring
thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy
him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother
by
night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the
death
of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my
son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise
men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the
children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts
thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time
which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was
fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,
saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and
weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her
children,
and would not be comforted, because they are not. Think
about
the thousands of families who were affected by this
massacre.
The Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could not
be comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If you
are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would feel
if an agent of the government came to your door one morning
and slaughtered your children. Why would God do this? Why
would you want anything to do with such a muderous, horrific
being? What can we say about people who would want to
believe
in such a being? Why would any normal, intelligent, ethical
human being "worship" such a heinous, demented and
despicable
"god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also
be heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent
person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only
way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it
can't be taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you really
think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any book on
philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you be
sure they are real christians? How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you were in a room
standing next to some body would you know if that person is a
christian?
How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct you? Would you
see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and obey the great
loving
god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you
know
what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know?

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's
position in the Bible might actually mean? While there are
many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's
story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood
water, they understand that the ark could not hold the
millions of species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that all
animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just a few
thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about
God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who
takes the time to consider his actions. That special
section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions
of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed
to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to
exist, God would know what was coming when he created Adam
and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions
of people. This realization leads to an obvious question:
Why didn't God simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the
atrocity that is the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam
and Eve when he created them to completely circumvent the
need for such a horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of
the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly)
murdering nearly every human on the planet, the Christian
God is far more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and
"perfect" being can also be a mass-murderer bent of global
genocide. Yet Christians willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass murderer
into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here
are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about
one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn
sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of
Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the
captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their
livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all
the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud
wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was
not a single house where someone had not died. Here the
death of the children is directly at the hand of God. In
Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.
Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking
hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and
no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The
attacking armies will shoot down the young people with
arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will
show no compassion for the children. Is this the imprint of
a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God
paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even
the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely
their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of
their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry
shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God
paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed
in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. In Numbers
chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and
so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now
therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all
the young girls who have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent
of God, specifies that thousands of male babies and
children be killed, as well as thousands of women. The
Bible states in verse 35 that the captured women numbered
"thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not
known man by lying with him." This was not a small attack.
Tens of thousands men, women and children were massacred.
In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan,
and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I
have handed him over to you with his whole army and his
land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites,
who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into
our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck
them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all
his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we
did not take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's
kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with
high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a
great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them,
as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every
city-men, women and children. But all the livestock and the
plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.
They massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities
at God's request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the
same sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2,
mixed into the Christmas story, the Bible describes an
amazing massacre of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they
had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts;
gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God
in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they
departed into their own country another way. And when they
were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to
Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child
and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there
until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young
child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young
child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And
was there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then Herod, when
he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding
wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were
in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years
old and under, according to the time which he had
diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled
that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In
Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would
not be comforted, because they are not. Think about the
thousands of families who were affected by this massacre.
The Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could
not be comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If
you are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would
feel if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children. Why would God do
this? Why would you want anything to do with such a
muderous, horrific being? What can we say about people who
would want to believe in such a being? Why would any
normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also
be heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent
person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
it can't be taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you really
think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any book on
philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you
be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you were in a room
standing next to some body would you know if that person is a
christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct
you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and obey
the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you
know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there angles?
Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is?
How do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you? Is an
action a sin if it against a sinner?

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's
position in the Bible might actually mean? While there are
many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's
story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent
people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth.
They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood
water, they understand that the ark could not hold the
millions of species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that all
animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just a few
thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about
God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who
takes the time to consider his actions. That special
section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions
of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed
to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to
exist, God would know what was coming when he created Adam
and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions
of people. This realization leads to an obvious question:
Why didn't God simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the
atrocity that is the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam
and Eve when he created them to completely circumvent the
need for such a horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of
the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly)
murdering nearly every human on the planet, the Christian
God is far more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and
"perfect" being can also be a mass-murderer bent of global
genocide. Yet Christians willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass murderer
into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here
are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about
one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn
sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of
Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the
captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their
livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all
the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud
wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was
not a single house where someone had not died. Here the
death of the children is directly at the hand of God. In
Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.
Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking
hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and
no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The
attacking armies will shoot down the young people with
arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will
show no compassion for the children. Is this the imprint of
a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God
paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even
the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely
their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of
their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry
shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God
paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed
in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. In Numbers
chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and
so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now
therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all
the young girls who have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves. Here Moses, acting as an agent
of God, specifies that thousands of male babies and
children be killed, as well as thousands of women. The
Bible states in verse 35 that the captured women numbered
"thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not
known man by lying with him." This was not a small attack.
Tens of thousands men, women and children were massacred.
In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan,
and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I
have handed him over to you with his whole army and his
land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites,
who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into
our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck
them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all
his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we
did not take from them-the whole region of Argob, Og's
kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with
high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a
great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them,
as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every
city-men, women and children. But all the livestock and the
plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.
They massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities
at God's request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the
same sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2,
mixed into the Christmas story, the Bible describes an
amazing massacre of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they
had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts;
gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God
in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they
departed into their own country another way. And when they
were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to
Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child
and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there
until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young
child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young
child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And
was there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then Herod, when
he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding
wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were
in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years
old and under, according to the time which he had
diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled
that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In
Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would
not be comforted, because they are not. Think about the
thousands of families who were affected by this massacre.
The Bible describes their suffering: they wept and could
not be comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If
you are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would
feel if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children. Why would God do
this? Why would you want anything to do with such a
muderous, horrific being? What can we say about people who
would want to believe in such a being? Why would any
normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to also
be heinous, demented and despicable. As an intelligent
person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
it can't be taken on its own merits."
[Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you really
think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any book on
philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you
be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real christian?
How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you were in a room
standing next to some body would you know if that person is a
christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god to correct
you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I were an angle and obey
the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you
know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there angles?
Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is?
How do you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you? Is an
action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?
--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this
story's position in the Bible might actually mean? While
there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the story
of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that Mt.
Everest was never covered in flood water, they understand
that the ark could not hold the millions of species that
are now found on earth, and they understand that there is
no DNA evidence to show that all animals on earth came
from single breeding pairs just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about
God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person
who takes the time to consider his actions. That special
section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God
were to exist, God would know what was coming when he
created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be
murdering millions of people. This realization leads to
an obvious question: Why didn't God simply speed up
Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is the flood?
Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he created
them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity
of the highest order. It is mass murder on a global
scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly)
murdering nearly every human on the planet, the Christian
God is far more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and
"perfect" being can also be a mass-murderer bent of
global genocide. Yet Christians willfully worship him.
Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here
are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn
sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of
Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of
the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their
livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all
the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud
wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was
not a single house where someone had not died. Here the
death of the children is directly at the hand of God. In
Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young
people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless
babies and will show no compassion for the children. Is
this the imprint of a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter
49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away;
surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the
sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of
their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter
13, God paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or,
and so the plague came among the congregation of the
LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying
with him. But all the young girls who have not known man
by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Here Moses,
acting as an agent of God, specifies that thousands of
male babies and children be killed, as well as thousands
of women. The Bible states in verse 35 that the captured
women numbered "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women
who had not known man by lying with him." This was not a
small attack. Tens of thousands men, women and children
were massacred. In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for
I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his
land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the
Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God
also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his
army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that
time we took all his cities. There was not one of the
sixty cities that we did not take from them-the whole
region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities
were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars,
and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We
completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king
of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and
children. But all the livestock and the plunder from
their cities we carried off for ourselves. They massacred
all the men, women and children in 60 cities at God's
request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the same
sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed
into the Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing
massacre of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they
had opened their treasures, they presented unto him
gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned
of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod,
they departed into their own country another way. And
when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord
appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take
the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and
be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will
seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he
took the young child and his mother by night, and
departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of
Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called
my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the
wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew
all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the
coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according
to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise
men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah
the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard,
lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel
weeping for her children, and would not be comforted,
because they are not. Think about the thousands of
families who were affected by this massacre. The Bible
describes their suffering: they wept and could not be
comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If you
are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would
feel if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children. Why would God do
this? Why would you want anything to do with such a
muderous, horrific being? What can we say about people
who would want to believe in such a being? Why would any
normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to
also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
it can't be taken on its own merits." [Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you
really think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any
book on philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you
be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real
christian? How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you
were in a room standing next to some body would you know if that
person is a christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god
to correct you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I were an
angle and obey the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you
know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there angles?
Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is? How do
you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you? Is
an action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:42:19 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of
Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this
story's position in the Bible might actually mean? While
there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the story
of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that Mt.
Everest was never covered in flood water, they understand
that the ark could not hold the millions of species that
are now found on earth, and they understand that there is
no DNA evidence to show that all animals on earth came
from single breeding pairs just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something about
God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person
who takes the time to consider his actions. That special
section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God
were to exist, God would know what was coming when he
created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be
murdering millions of people. This realization leads to
an obvious question: Why didn't God simply speed up
Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is the flood?
Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he created
them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity
of the highest order. It is mass murder on a global
scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer as
their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By (supposedly)
murdering nearly every human on the planet, the Christian
God is far more heinous than Hitler. No "loving" and
"perfect" being can also be a mass-murderer bent of
global genocide. Yet Christians willfully worship him.
Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God displays
these horrific tendencies toward mindless slaughter. Here
are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn
sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of
Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of
the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their
livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all
the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud
wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was
not a single house where someone had not died. Here the
death of the children is directly at the hand of God. In
Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young
people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless
babies and will show no compassion for the children. Is
this the imprint of a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter
49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against
Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away;
surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the
sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of
their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea. In Hosea chapter
13, God paints a similar picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled
against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or,
and so the plague came among the congregation of the
LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying
with him. But all the young girls who have not known man
by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Here Moses,
acting as an agent of God, specifies that thousands of
male babies and children be killed, as well as thousands
of women. The Bible states in verse 35 that the captured
women numbered "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women
who had not known man by lying with him." This was not a
small attack. Tens of thousands men, women and children
were massacred. In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for
I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his
land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the
Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God
also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his
army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that
time we took all his cities. There was not one of the
sixty cities that we did not take from them-the whole
region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities
were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars,
and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We
completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king
of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and
children. But all the livestock and the plunder from
their cities we carried off for ourselves. They massacred
all the men, women and children in 60 cities at God's
request. Even in the "New Testament" we find the same
sort of thing. In the book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed
into the Christmas story, the Bible describes an amazing
massacre of thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they
had opened their treasures, they presented unto him
gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned
of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod,
they departed into their own country another way. And
when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord
appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take
the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and
be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will
seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he
took the young child and his mother by night, and
departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of
Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called
my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the
wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew
all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the
coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according
to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise
men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah
the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard,
lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel
weeping for her children, and would not be comforted,
because they are not. Think about the thousands of
families who were affected by this massacre. The Bible
describes their suffering: they wept and could not be
comforted. Of course they could not be comforted. If you
are a parent, you know exactly how distraught you would
feel if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children. Why would God do
this? Why would you want anything to do with such a
muderous, horrific being? What can we say about people
who would want to believe in such a being? Why would any
normal, intelligent, ethical human being "worship" such a
heinous, demented and despicable "god" as this?

It is impossible for a "perfect" and "loving" being to
also be heinous, demented and despicable. As an
intelligent person, you should be able to see that.

This impossibility tells us that God is imaginary.

You misunderstood.

Until you have a mature faith,

ROFL

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the
only way you can
accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
it can't be taken on its own merits." [Dan Barker]

Does that mean you have no faith
in the scientific method?


I never use 'faith' I prefer to use 'facts'

Do you really think the scientific method is a fact? Do you
really think all scientific theories are facts? Have you read any
book on philosophy of science?

You'd better pray that the next airpalne that you fly on was not
designed by a team relying of 'faith' rather than 'facts'


If they were real Christians,
they would have put safety before profit. Yes, I would like that.

Are you sure a christian would put safety before profit? How can you
be sure they are real christians? How do you define a real
christian? How can you tell if someone is a real christian? If you
were in a room standing next to some body would you know if that
person is a christian? How do you know I'm not an angle sent by god
to correct you? Would you see the errors in your ways If I were an
angle and obey the great loving god?
How would you know if you are receiving correction from god? Do you
know what it means to be corrected by god.


Flippancy would not help you.

Do you hate God?

If I were an angle sent by god how would you know? Are there angles?
Is there a real devil?
Is there a real hell?
How do you know there is a real hell. Do you know what sin is? How do
you define sin?
Can you define sin?
If your in a room all by your self can you sin if nobody sees you? Is
an action a sin if it against a sinner?


All good questions.

What does it mean for you to sin?

What does it mean for you to sin?


To disobey God.

--
monkfish * alt.atheism is removed from the header
because atheists there consider quoting the Bible proselytizing
and as such it is prohibited by their undebatable policy.

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnSZ8vdjLpIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:42:19 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnTB8vdiwvIjVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:42:34 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:lcOdnQl8vdjlY4nVnZ2dnUVZ_rHinZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:55:03 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:JLydndu_goSLaI7VnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@ptd.net...
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:09:01 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:11 -0500, bob young wrote:

monkfish wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:31:48 -0400, Fred Jones wrote:

Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story
of Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this
story's position in the Bible might actually mean?
While there are many people who consider the Bible, and
therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most
educated and intelligent people understand that the
story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that
Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water, they
understand that the ark could not hold the millions of
species that are now found on earth, and they
understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that
all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs
just a few thousand years ago.

But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that
deserves special recognition. It shows us something
about God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent
person who takes the time to consider his actions. That
special section is this:

God senselessly murdered millions of humans and
billions of animals in the
flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is
supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God
were to exist, God would know what was coming when he
created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be
murdering millions of people. This realization leads to
an obvious question: Why didn't God simply speed up
Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is the flood?
Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he created
them to completely circumvent the need for such a
horrendous atrocity?

You may have never considered this question, but it is
exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity
of the highest order. It is mass murder on a global
scale.

The idea that Christians would accept a mass-murderer
as their object of worship shows us something about
Christians, does it not? Think about it - By
(supposedly) murdering nearly every human on the
planet, the Christian God is far more heinous than
Hitler. No "loving" and "perfect" being can also be a
mass-murderer bent of global genocide. Yet Christians
willfully worship him. Why?

If you are a Christian, I would ask you to simply look
inside yourself today. Why would you accept a mass
murderer into your life?

And Noah's flood is not the only place where God
displays these horrific tendencies toward mindless
slaughter. Here are several other examples.

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes
about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had
commanded through Moses and
Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the
firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn
son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn
son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn
of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his
officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during
the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the
land of Egypt. There was not a single house where
someone had not died. Here the death of the children is
directly at the hand of God. In Isaiah chapter 13, God
paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children
will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the
attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against
Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them
off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young
people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless
babies and will show no compassion for the children. Is
this the imprint of a "loving" God? In Jeremiah chapter
49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made
against Edom and the purposes
which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged
away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their
fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall
tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the
Red Sea. In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar
picture:
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has
rebelled against her God; they
shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be
dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live?
Behold, these caused the
people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act
treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or,
and so the plague came among the congregation of the
LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying
with him. But all the young girls who have not known
man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Here
Moses, acting as an agent of God, specifies that
thousands of male babies and children be killed, as
well as thousands of women. The Bible states in verse
35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two
thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by
lying with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of
thousands men, women and children were massacred. In
Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward
Bashan, and Og king of Bashan
with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at
Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him,
for I have handed him over to you with his whole army
and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of
the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our
God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all
his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At
that time we took all his cities. There was not one of
the sixty cities that we did not take from them-the
whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All
these cities were fortified with high walls and with
gates and bars, and there were also a great many
unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we
had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every
city-men, women and children. But all the livestock and
the plunder from their cities we carried off for
ourselves. They massacred all the men, women and
children in 60 cities at God's request. Even in the
"New Testament" we find the same sort of thing. In the
book of Matthew, chapter 2, mixed into the Christmas
story, the Bible describes an amazing massacre of
thousands of babies:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child with Mary his
mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when
they had opened their treasures, they presented unto
him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh. And being
warned of God in a dream that they should not return to
Herod, they departed into their own country another
way. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of
the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise,
and take the young child and his mother, and flee into
Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for
Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he
arose, he took the young child and his mother by night,
and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death
of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken
of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I
called my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was
mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent
forth, and slew all the children that were in
Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two
years old and under, according to the time which he had
diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled
that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and
weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her
children, and would not be comforted, because they are
not. Think about the thousands of families who were
affected by this massacre. The Bible describes their
suffering: they wept and could not be comforted. Of
course they could not be comforted. If you are a
parent, you know exactly how distraught you would feel
if an agent of the government came to your door one
morning and slaughtered your children. Why would God do