|
Science Forum Index » Languages Forum » Pronunciation dictionaries?
Page 3 of 8 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next
|
| Author |
Message |
| LEE Sau Dan |
 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:11 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
António> Of course you can. You only need open any grammar which
António> will tell you that 'spanish is pronounced as it is
António> written' in order to know that. I suppose finnish isn't
António> very different.
"As it is written" is too simplistic a description. How do you
pronounce the "c" (in Europe) and "g"? Do you pronounce the "h"?
António> Also, spanish phonetics are simple enough that no
António> situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St]
António> or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe) and "g" depending on what follows.
So, how is that simpler than the German "st", "sp"?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Ruud Harmsen |
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:56 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:11:32 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
<danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
Quote: "Antnio" == Antnio Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
Antnio> Of course you can. You only need open any grammar which
Antnio> will tell you that 'spanish is pronounced as it is
Antnio> written' in order to know that. I suppose finnish isn't
Antnio> very different.
"As it is written" is too simplistic a description. How do you
pronounce the "c" (in Europe) and "g"? Do you pronounce the "h"?
True, but some straightforward rules cover all that.
Quote: Antnio> Also, spanish phonetics are simple enough that no
Antnio> situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St]
Antnio> or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe) and "g" depending on what follows.
So, how is that simpler than the German "st", "sp"?
--
Ruud Harmsen
http://rudhar.com |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| LEE Sau Dan |
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:54 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Quote: "Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> writes:
[on Spanish]
Quote: But you pronounce "c" (in Europe) and "g" depending on what
follows. So, how is that simpler than the German "st", "sp"?
Peter> The former is completely predictable from the phonological/
Peter> orthographic environment. The latter depends on morpheme
Peter> boundaries, which are not marked.
Peter> BIG difference.
Peter> One might just as easily wonder how anyone can read
Peter> Chinese, with endless blocks of characters one after the
Peter> other, no indication of what goes with what.
If they could do that will ALL CAPS Old Greek, then why can't we do
that with Chinese, Korean, Thai, etc.?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Antnio Marques |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:32 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
(This is really in reply to LSD.)
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Quote: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:11:32 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
"Antnio" == Antnio Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
Antnio> Of course you can. You only need open any grammar which
Antnio> will tell you that 'spanish is pronounced as it is
Antnio> written' in order to know that. I suppose finnish isn't
Antnio> very different.
"As it is written" is too simplistic a description. How do
you pronounce the "c" (in Europe) and "g"? Do you pronounce the
"h"?
Each of [h], [cg][aou] and [cg][ei] has only one possible
interpretation. You might have a point with -u- (cf. qu, gu). However,
'pronounced as it is written' will be the layman's description for 'any
written form has only one possible, instantly determinable, reading'.
Quote: True, but some straightforward rules cover all that.
Antnio> Also, spanish phonetics are simple enough that no Antnio
situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St] Antnio
or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe)
(What's with the 'in Europe'?)
Quote: and "g" depending on what follows. So, how is that simpler than
the German "st", "sp"?
In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above represents. Whereas you
can always be sure what <ce> is.
Kindly cut the gnumacs quoting. No one else uses it. It's distressing.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| LEE Sau Dan |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:07 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St]
António> or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe)
António> (What's with the 'in Europe'?)
Well... I'm having the difference in pronunciation of letters
"c"[ei]/"z" across the Atlantic.
Quote: and "g" depending on what follows. So, how is that simpler
than the German "st", "sp"?
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
António> represents.
I never have problems with that.
António> Whereas you can always be sure what <ce> is.
[s] or [T]?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| António Marques |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:06 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St]
António> or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe)
António> (What's with the 'in Europe'?)
Well... I'm having the difference in pronunciation of letters
"c"[ei]/"z" across the Atlantic.
/T/ and /s/ have merged in most spanish dialects. That has nothing at
all to do with the Atlantic, nor does it bear on the question. Given the
dialect you're using, you'll use the corresponding sound. Mind you, some
dialects have /T/ for both <c> and <s>.
Quote: and "g" depending on what follows. So, how is that simpler
than the German "st", "sp"?
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
António> represents.
I never have problems with that.
Who talked about problems, never or seldom or often?
What does st stand for, (-)st- or -s + t-? You can't know.
Quote: António> Whereas you can always be sure what <ce> is.
[s] or [T]?
Whichoneever the dialect you're using has.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Harlan Messinger |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:36 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Antnio Marques wrote:
Quote: (This is really in reply to LSD.)
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:11:32 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
Antnio> Also, spanish phonetics are simple enough that no Antnio
situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St] Antnio
or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe)
(What's with the 'in Europe'?)
and "g" depending on what follows. So, how is that simpler than
the German "st", "sp"?
In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above represents. Whereas you
can always be sure what <ce> is.
Kindly cut the gnumacs quoting. No one else uses it. It's distressing.
Especially when someone's newsreader starts wrapping the text upon
quoting it. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| LEE Sau Dan |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:41 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
António> represents.
Quote:
I never have problems with that.
António> Who talked about problems, never or seldom or often?
António> What does st stand for, (-)st- or -s + t-? You can't
António> know.
Examples?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Harlan Messinger |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:15 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St]
António> or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe)
António> (What's with the 'in Europe'?)
Well... I'm having the difference in pronunciation of letters
"c"[ei]/"z" across the Atlantic.
and "g" depending on what follows. So, how is that simpler
than the German "st", "sp"?
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
António> represents.
I never have problems with that.
Do you think that someone who doesn't know German would know which
pronunciation applies in "sonstigen" and which in "einsteigen"?
Quote: António> Whereas you can always be sure what <ce> is.
[s] or [T]?
Why are you pretending to be so naive as not to know the difference
between pronunciation that varies between *words* and pronunciation that
varies between *different people's speech*? *Within one person's speech*
it's always one or the other, *regardless of the word*. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Harlan Messinger |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:09 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
António> represents.
I never have problems with that.
António> Who talked about problems, never or seldom or often?
António> What does st stand for, (-)st- or -s + t-? You can't
António> know.
Examples?
See my other post: "sonstigen" vs. "einsteigen". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Antnio Marques |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:16 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Quote: Antnio Marques wrote:
(This is really in reply to LSD.)
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:11:32 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
Antnio> Also, spanish phonetics are simple enough that no Antnio
situations like the german one where <st> can be st- [St] Antnio
or -s t- [st] seem to occur.
But you pronounce "c" (in Europe)
(What's with the 'in Europe'?)
and "g" depending on what follows. So, how is that simpler than
the German "st", "sp"?
In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above represents. Whereas you
can always be sure what <ce> is.
Kindly cut the gnumacs quoting. No one else uses it. It's distressing.
Especially when someone's newsreader starts wrapping the text upon
quoting it.
No, I do it on purpose.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| António Marques |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:26 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
Quote: "António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
António> represents.
I never have problems with that.
António> Who talked about problems, never or seldom or often?
António> What does st stand for, (-)st- or -s + t-? You can't
António> know.
Examples?
Sonny, I've given it to you. '<st>' in the middle of a string of
letters. That's the example. It works in spanish: '-ce-' is |ze| (using
the preferred spanish notation, not IPA); how you pronounce the |z| is
up to your dialect. What's '<st>' in the middle of any string of letters
in german? The answer is you don't know without further information.
I'll make a drawing for you:
- You find this scorched piece of paper you wrote 10 years ago. You know
the writing in it was spanish. All that survives are the characters
<ce>. You can instantly know how they were pronounced.
- You find this scorched piece of paper you wrote 10 years ago. You know
the writing in it was german. All that survives are the characters
<st>. You couldn't tell how they were pronounced if you had a gun to
your head.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| António Marques |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:32 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Quote: LEE Sau Dan wrote:
"António" == António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt> writes:
António> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above António
represents.
I never have problems with that.
António> Who talked about problems, never or seldom or often?
António> What does st stand for, (-)st- or -s + t-? You can't
António> know.
Examples?
See my other post: "sonstigen" vs. "einsteigen".
What's the purpose? LSD'll just merrily tell you that those can be
deduced from sonst and steigen.
Sometimes, the difference between Duscian and LSD is that Duscian is
more reasonable.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:16 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Apr 22, 7:47pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
Quote: "Harlan" == Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> writes:
Antnio> In every way. You *can't* know what <-st-> above
Antnio> represents.
>> I never have problems with that.
Harlan> Do you think that someone who doesn't know German would
Harlan> know which pronunciation applies in "sonstigen" and which
Harlan> in "einsteigen"?
Do you think that someone who doesn't know Spanish would know how to
pronounce its words?
Yes. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| LEE Sau Dan |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:44 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Quote: "Harlan" == Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> writes:
Examples?
Harlan> See my other post: "sonstigen" vs. "einsteigen".
Easy. The first derives from "sonst". So, the last "s" is /s/.
The second derives from "steigen". Initial "st" is always /St/ in
Hochdeutsch.
I never mispronounced these even when I was a beginner.
I cannot think of ways of misbreaking these words into the morphemes.
So, your examples are bad ones (just like "ghoti").
--
Lee Sau Dan u ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
