On Apr 16, 11:14 pm, "Inger E. J" <inger_e.johans...@telia.com> wrote:
"LloydB" <bogart.l...@uwlax.edu> skrev i meddelandetnews:673b8457-5751-48d2-a233-e07d5b7a17ae@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 10:28 pm, "Inger E. J" <inger_e.johans...@telia.com> wrote:
[snip]



Could have hadn't the first (?) knowledge of Australia been to be seen on
more distributed maps from 1200's and the first written statements of
Europeans (Swedish Ar-Rus among other) who travelled down India and to
China
from mid 800's been more known outside Scandinavia before 1400's.
Inger E
Even if the above made any sense (and it doesn't)
there seems to be nothing in it related to this thread
that *you* started.

The attempted leap from Columbus and America to
whatever-the-hell this is, was inspired and completely
unexpected, but your dismount was dismal.
----
IEJ: Lloyd, maps are related/IEJ

Does this mean:

1) All maps are related to all other maps?
OR
2) Unknown 13th century maps that *might*
(if they exist) show Australia are related
(somehow) to unknown maps that Columbus
*might* have seen?
OR
3) Something else, that you intended to
say (but didn't) with that profoundly
ungrammatical and mind-altering string
of verbiage?

Do you read what you type before you
hit 'Send'?

George wrote, on 2008-04-17 20:19:

The new generation of computers come with a stupid filter ?

I don't think that she'd see any of usenet, in that case.

On Apr 18, 10:26 am, Peter Alaca <p.al...@purple.invalid> wrote:
LloydB wrote: on, 18/04/2008 00:23:
On Apr 16, 11:14 pm, "Inger E. J" <inger_e.johans...@telia.com> wrote:
"LloydB" <bogart.l...@uwlax.edu> skrev i meddelandetnews:673b8457-5751-48d2-a233-e07d5b7a17ae@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 10:28 pm, "Inger E. J" <inger_e.johans...@telia.com> wrote:
[snip]
Could have hadn't the first (?) knowledge of Australia been to be seen on
more distributed maps from 1200's and the first written statements of
Europeans (Swedish Ar-Rus among other) who travelled down India and to
China
from mid 800's been more known outside Scandinavia before 1400's.
Inger E
Even if the above made any sense (and it doesn't)
there seems to be nothing in it related to this thread
that *you* started.
The attempted leap from Columbus and America to
whatever-the-hell this is, was inspired and completely
unexpected, but your dismount was dismal.
----
IEJ: Lloyd, maps are related/IEJ
Does this mean:
1) All maps are related to all other maps?
OR
2) Unknown 13th century maps that *might*
(if they exist) show Australia are related
(somehow) to unknown maps that Columbus
*might* have seen?
OR
3) Something else, that you intended to
say (but didn't) with that profoundly
ungrammatical and mind-altering string
of verbiage?
Do you read what you type before you
hit 'Send'?
She can't read what she writes on her new computer.

The new generation of computers come with a stupid filter ?

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com
wrote:





In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com....
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com....

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.

Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff,  and,  if I remember properly,  promptly got arrested and sent home
for his pains...

Yup.  I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world.  Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case.  The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again.  There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas.  If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.

a...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:a2e816f3-d6e7-4008-a856-046b55e0f88d@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 17, 2:37 am, "Soren Larsen" <Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:





a...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:53 pm, "Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> wrote:
"Tom McDonald" schrieb :> Digger wrote:
"Tom McDonald" <tmcdonald2...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:NI2Nj.5$4L1.0@newsfe07.lga...
Thus, my question: if Columbus knew that a *continent* existed,
why did he do nothing more than dick around a bunch of islands
that clearly were *not* a continent?

Let's turn it around and ask why *should* he have moved onto the
continent? He was doing rather well just where he was.

Bullshit.
Several mutinies, being shipped in chains back to Europe, losing his
titles is doing rather well ?
(Look up Francisco de Bobadilla, who sent him in chains to Europe)

OTOH, who else managed to be buried in 3 different places?

Considering that he was born in at least as many places I think he had
an unfair advantage.

Indeed. I never considered issue from this perspective. So you are
saying that the multiple birth events led to the multiple
personalities (possibly in a single body) and, as a logical
consequence, to the multiple burial places. Makes a lot of sense.

I just wonder if the negotiations with Isabella included requests for
the perks (title, etc.) for each personality separately or was it
something like a collective bargaining? Perhaps we may find that
Columbus discovered Trade Unions (unless he managed to steal some old
Norwegian document which will be revealed by Inger in a due time).

IEJ: Columbus had others who stole maps in Rome./IEJ- Hide quoted text -

a...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:53 pm, "Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> wrote:
"Tom McDonald" schrieb :> Digger wrote:
"Tom McDonald" <tmcdonald2...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:NI2Nj.5$4L1.0@newsfe07.lga...
Thus, my question: if Columbus knew that a *continent* existed,
why did he do nothing more than dick around a bunch of islands
that clearly were *not* a continent?

Let's turn it around and ask why *should* he have moved onto the
continent? He was doing rather well just where he was.

Bullshit.
Several mutinies, being shipped in chains back to Europe, losing his
titles is doing rather well ?
(Look up Francisco de Bobadilla, who sent him in chains to Europe)

OTOH, who else managed to be buried in 3 different places?

Considering that he was born in at least as many places I think he had
an unfair advantage.

Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> wrote in news:fuaNj.59$4L1.17
@newsfe07.lga:

Why don't you produce better information then, rather than just
saying the article is crap.

Because to Inger, if anything disagrees with her, it's crap.

Therefore, _all_ the information she has to provide is that it disagrees
with her: Bingo! It's automatically crap.

David

--
_______________________________________________________________________
David Johnson home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan

"So many of you come time and time again to watch this final end of
everything which I think is really wonderful and then to return home to
your own eras and raise families and strive for new and better societies
and fight terrible wars for what you know is right, it gives one real
hope for the whole future of lifekind...

...Except of course we know it hasn't got one."

"LloydB" <bogart.l...@uwlax.edu> skrev i
meddelandetnews:673b8457-5751-48d2-a233-e07d5b7a17ae@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 10:28 pm, "Inger E. J" <inger_e.johans...@telia.com> wrote:
[snip]



Could have hadn't the first (?) knowledge of Australia been to be seen
on
more distributed maps from 1200's and the first written statements of
Europeans (Swedish Ar-Rus among other) who travelled down India and to
China
from mid 800's been more known outside Scandinavia before 1400's.

Inger E

Even if the above made any sense (and it doesn't)
there seems to be nothing in it related to this thread
that *you* started.

The attempted leap from Columbus and America to
whatever-the-hell this is, was inspired and completely
unexpected, but your dismount was dismal.

IEJ: Lloyd, maps are related/IEJ

On Apr 17, 5:25 pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:



On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com
wrote:

In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.

Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff, and, if I remember properly, promptly got arrested and sent home
for his pains...

Yup. I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world. Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case. The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again. There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas. If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.

If he had this knowledge, it was similar to the one produced by The
Meandering Chinese Fleet: out of the numerous possibilities he got
stuck with the least profitable and promising ones: no big deposits of
gold, silver or anything REALLY worth stealing and not too much in the
terms of land suitable for plantations. By the time of the great
conquistadors Cuba was overflown with the noble Castillians (AFAIK,
for quite a while this was a strictly Castillian enterprise because
what could pass for 'Spain' did not finance Columbus expedition,
Isabella did this as the Queen of Castille) with no money, no
occupation and no chances to get any land in a foreseen future.

So, if he had any kind of a reasonably valid knowledge, he did not
pick his goal well. His sticking to these islands also does not look
like he had any idea about the continent laying within a reasonably
short distance.

On Apr 18, 10:54 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:





On Apr 17, 5:25 pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com
wrote:

In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.

Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff,  and,  if I remember properly,  promptly got arrested and sent home
for his pains...

Yup.  I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world.  Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case.  The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again.  There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas.  If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.

If he had this knowledge, it was similar to the one produced by The
Meandering Chinese Fleet: out of the numerous possibilities he got
stuck with the least profitable and promising ones: no big deposits of
gold, silver or anything REALLY worth stealing and not too much in the
terms of land suitable for plantations. By the time of the great
conquistadors Cuba was overflown with the noble Castillians (AFAIK,
for quite a while this was a strictly Castillian enterprise because
what could pass for 'Spain' did not finance Columbus expedition,
Isabella did this as the Queen of Castille) with no money, no
occupation and no chances to get any land in a foreseen future.

So, if he had any kind of a reasonably valid knowledge, he did not
pick his goal well. His sticking to these islands also does not look
like he had any idea about the continent laying within a reasonably
short distance.

Samuel Morrison credits/blames Paolo de Pozzo Toscanelli for
Columbus's ideas about the width of the ocean sea. Toscanelli was
a"pen pal" of Fernao Martins, a canon of the Lisbon Cathedral, who
shared his letters with King Alfonso V of Portugal. Columbus had a
copy of Toscanelli's letter of 25 June 1574, Hangchow China was 5000
nautical miles west and a shorter route went through Antilla,
Toscanelli put it about 3000 nm from the Canaries. From this Columbus
fiddled the numbers to make the trip even shorter. Smaller degree,
longer Europe. More or less verified by a globe made by a Nuremberg
Geographer, Martin Beheim,  serving in Portugal, in 1492.

Quote from Morrison:

"Columbus's calculations were illogical, but his mind never followed
the rules of logic. He knew he could make it, and had put the mileage
low in order to attract support" Sounds a lot like Lindbergh.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com
wrote:

In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

am05@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.


Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff, and, if I remember properly, promptly got arrested and sent
home
for his pains...

Yup. I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world. Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case. The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again. There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas. If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.

But no, otherwise sensible people will continue to present
fanciful theories and other assorted crap year after year
after year.

It isn't as if books haven't been written about all of this.
It isn't as if the question has never been raised before.
It turns out that there is NO real evidence that he had
the faintest idea that the Americas were there.



Eric Stevens

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Apr 18, 10:54 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Apr 17, 5:25 pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com
wrote:
In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )
Why not the Far East Chinese?
If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China.
----------------------
He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.
Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....
----------------------------
When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff, and, if I remember properly, promptly got arrested and sent home
for his pains...
Yup. I fully agree.
It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world. Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case. The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.
Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again. There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.
This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas. If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.
But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.
I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.
If he had this knowledge, it was similar to the one produced by The
Meandering Chinese Fleet: out of the numerous possibilities he got
stuck with the least profitable and promising ones: no big deposits of
gold, silver or anything REALLY worth stealing and not too much in the
terms of land suitable for plantations. By the time of the great
conquistadors Cuba was overflown with the noble Castillians (AFAIK,
for quite a while this was a strictly Castillian enterprise because
what could pass for 'Spain' did not finance Columbus expedition,
Isabella did this as the Queen of Castille) with no money, no
occupation and no chances to get any land in a foreseen future.

So, if he had any kind of a reasonably valid knowledge, he did not
pick his goal well. His sticking to these islands also does not look
like he had any idea about the continent laying within a reasonably
short distance.

Samuel Morrison credits/blames Paolo de Pozzo Toscanelli for
Columbus's ideas about the width of the ocean sea. Toscanelli was
a"pen pal" of Fernao Martins, a canon of the Lisbon Cathedral, who
shared his letters with King Alfonso V of Portugal. Columbus had a
copy of Toscanelli's letter of 25 June 1574, Hangchow China was 5000
nautical miles west and a shorter route went through Antilla,
Toscanelli put it about 3000 nm from the Canaries.

3000 nanometers? How could anyone have missed it?

:-)

From this Columbus
fiddled the numbers to make the trip even shorter. Smaller degree,
longer Europe. More or less verified by a globe made by a Nuremberg
Geographer, Martin Beheim, serving in Portugal, in 1492.

Quote from Morrison:

"Columbus's calculations were illogical, but his mind never followed
the rules of logic. He knew he could make it, and had put the mileage
low in order to attract support" Sounds a lot like Lindbergh.

"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ftff04p14c4ido51mucjgg7vo3k64emjgq@4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com
wrote:

In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

am05@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.


Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff, and, if I remember properly, promptly got arrested and sent
home
for his pains...

Yup. I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world. Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case. The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again. There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas. If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.

No matter how vanishingly small the probability is, and the lack of any hard
evidence to support it despite people having looked for it for centuries.


But no, otherwise sensible people will continue to present
fanciful theories and other assorted crap year after year
after year.

It isn't as if books haven't been written about all of this.
It isn't as if the question has never been raised before.
It turns out that there is NO real evidence that he had
the faintest idea that the Americas were there.



Eric Stevens

Steve

"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ftff04p14c4ido51mucjgg7vo3k64emjgq@4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com
wrote:

In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

am05@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.


Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff, and, if I remember properly, promptly got arrested and sent
home
for his pains...

Yup. I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world. Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case. The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again. There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas. If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.

No matter how vanishingly small the probability is, and the lack of any hard
evidence to support it despite people having looked for it for centuries.

But no, otherwise sensible people will continue to present
fanciful theories and other assorted crap year after year
after year.

It isn't as if books haven't been written about all of this.
It isn't as if the question has never been raised before.
It turns out that there is NO real evidence that he had
the faintest idea that the Americas were there.



Eric Stevens

Steve

On Apr 17, 5:25 pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:05:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com
wrote:





In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81a3a0a-6895-472f-b66d-83af3cde89f7@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:0d3f6255-7244-4f6d-bf4d-252ba3e311a0@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But shouldn't they then have been the Far East Indians? )

Why not the Far East Chinese?

If Columbus had a clue (and America did not obstruct his way), he
would know that it was rather difficult to hit the coast of India
without bumping into couple things on the way. OTOH, as soon as
America is out of equation, it is practically open road all the way to
China. :-)

----------------------

He wanted to go to India because India was where the money (in spices)
was.

Well, then he needed to move all these obstructing places from his
way....

----------------------------

When he worked out that it wasn't India just over the horizon he invented
stuff,  and,  if I remember properly,  promptly got arrested and sent home
for his pains...

Yup.  I fully agree.

It is quite clear to most folks that Columbus seriously
underestimated the diameter of the world.  Indeed, there
is a lot of evidence that this is the case.  The data
he presented to the Spanish experts on his first attempt
to gain funding from Spain was rejected NOT because they
thought the earth was flat, but because they knew he
was seriously underestimating the size of the earth and
thus could never make it.

Just think, if the Americas had not been in the way,
Columbus would have continued to sail west and he'd
never have been heard from again.  There was no way
he could have carried enough water (and food) to last
him all the way to Asia *unless* he thought the earth
was much smaller than it is.

This notion also puts paid to the idea that he had
prior information about the Americas.  If he had, he
would have said so and used it as an argument that he
could refresh his water and food supplies for the longer
trip on to Asia.

But if it can be shown that he had prior information about America
(and there are at least two separate candidates for this) then it puts
to rest the argument that he seriously believed he was sailing to
China and that he underestimated the distance.

I'm not arguing that he did have prior knowledge. I'm merely pointing
out that the possibility cannot be ignored.



If he had this knowledge, it was similar to the one produced by The
Meandering Chinese Fleet: out of the numerous possibilities he got
stuck with the least profitable and promising ones: no big deposits of
gold, silver or anything REALLY worth stealing and not too much in the
terms of land suitable for plantations. By the time of the great
conquistadors Cuba was overflown with the noble Castillians (AFAIK,
for quite a while this was a strictly Castillian enterprise because
what could pass for 'Spain' did not finance Columbus expedition,
Isabella did this as the Queen of Castille) with no money, no
occupation and no chances to get any land in a foreseen future.

So, if he had any kind of a reasonably valid knowledge, he did not
pick his goal well. His sticking to these islands also does not look
like he had any idea about the continent laying within a reasonably
short distance.

My suspicion is that he didn't know much more than that something was