On Apr 14, 4:52 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
bill wrote:
On Apr 14, 1:30 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" <e...@eio.com> wrote:
"bill" <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote
You are being silly yes? I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not a hybrid, therefore not as efficient for the environment.
Hybrid means that it has more than one technology integrated into the
vehicle. Hybrid does not mean efficient. The Jetta diesel gets 52mpg
and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all. But hybrids are better than the diesels because
they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and get
better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -
I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel.
Please quit making yourself look so stupid.
There's really no call for rudeness.
Batteries aren't measured by the gallon. They're measured by the amp
hour.
here's the thing. the current generation of hybrids are parallel
hybrids. That means that any time they are moving, the ICE is burning
fuel, they are NEVER running "on batteries". You cannot run them on
grid electricity. That means that the best comparison between
vehicles is MPG. The deisels have a slightly unfair advantage in that
regard due to the extra energy contained in the fuel, they can be
equally thermally efficient and still get more MPG due to the extra.
Now, when the PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) hits the market
(there is none currently available for sale) THEN we can start talking
about running "on batteries" and the amp hour storage of the batteries
will become relevant. However, until that time... Well, you posts
have indicated that you are seriously misinformed. Some here tend to
be rude under those conditions.
I thought some of the hybrids recharged their batteries when coasting
or braking.
--Tedward
They do, regenerative braking is 60% of the advantage that is gained
from going to a hybrid design. Some even shut off the engine during
that time (if you have the A/C off or in "econ" mode), but when they
accelerate again, the batteries only assist the ICE in accelerating
the car. So I guess there are a few times when the vehicle is moving
and NOT consuming fossil fuels (coasting, braking), but those
represent a very small percentage of the total mileage driven, so they
just go into the mix of the MPG.
And none have 12 hours of continuous battery that could get you the
equivalent of 52mpg with the air conditioner and at 70 - 80 mph.

I am sometimes short with people that are wrong, when I tell them they
are wrong and they don't bother to do a 30 second google search to
investigate, but instead whine that I'm all wrong.

"I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel"

First.... all vehicles use fuel, battery cars use
coal,NatGas,Diesel,Nuclear.... converted to electric, then stored by
charging the battery.

A simple hybrid search will inform someone that a hybrid isn't a 100%
battery powered vehicle. They cost more than a normal car, they are
complicated and repairs will be costly, even a battery powered vehicle
needs to charge which shows up on your electric bill and if that is a
coal fired electric plant you still used carbon fuel.

Well. Actually, when the PHEVs come out in bulk, they figure to be
simpler and lower maintenance than conventional drivetrains. Electric
motors are WAY lower maintenance than ICEs and the battery packs will
need to be recyclable. so there's hope there that things won't keep
getting worse. Of course, the PHEV is fundamentally an electric car
with the ICE bolted on to extend range and make the fundamentally
useless electric car into an actual usable vehicle.

With the PHEVs of course will come a real need for a MAJOR electrical
grid upgrade, which will probably be nuclear power since there really
isn't a viable other choice, so that'll be a significant reduction in
the carbon footprint of a driven mile.

Whata Fool wrote:
Avant Grape <avantnograpecrap@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

bill wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:09 am, Mercellus Bohren <mercell...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm going to buy a hybrid vehicle in 2008. Does anyone know what type
of hybrid vehicle will get me the biggest tax credit when tax time
rolls around in 2009?

Thanks for any useful information. Trolls and other ner-do-wells
should stop and consider any hurtful replies!
keep driving the car you have now. save your money for a phev when
they come out. why switch from 28 to 38 now when you can wait 2-4
years and switch to 100+.


You're living in a dream world. 2-4 years? LOL Maybe in a socialist
country, but not in America.

-JC

Talk about delusional, under socialism, it is
a wonder more than half the people have indoor johns
and running water.

Do you suppose that under socialized medicine, that you will sit next to
Hillary Clinton in the ER waiting for a doctor?

On Apr 14, 4:26 pm, bill <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote:



On Apr 14, 3:28 pm, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"

the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 14, 1:24 pm, bill <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote:

You are being silly yes? I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not a hybrid, therefore not as efficient for the environment.
Hybrid means that it has more than one technology integrated into the
vehicle. Hybrid does not mean efficient. The Jetta diesel gets 52mpg
and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all. But hybrids are better than the diesels because
they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and get
better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -

I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.

When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel.

Please quit making yourself look so stupid.

There's really no call for rudeness.
Batteries aren't measured by the gallon. They're measured by the amp
hour.

here's the thing. the current generation of hybrids are parallel
hybrids. That means that any time they are moving, the ICE is burning
fuel, they are NEVER running "on batteries". You cannot run them on
grid electricity. That means that the best comparison between
vehicles is MPG. The deisels have a slightly unfair advantage in that
regard due to the extra energy contained in the fuel, they can be
equally thermally efficient and still get more MPG due to the extra.

Now, when the PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) hits the market
(there is none currently available for sale) THEN we can start talking
about running "on batteries" and the amp hour storage of the batteries
will become relevant. However, until that time... Well, you posts
have indicated that you are seriously misinformed. Some here tend to
be rude under those conditions.

I'm not misinformed, he's just not good at math.

Here's an example:
The Prius gets about 50 MPG. When you turn on the batteries, even if
the engine is half working, that's 75 MPG for the engine.

a.

Incorrect. The 50 mpg is an AVERAGE taken to include the periods of
going downhill at infinite MPG as well as the uphills at 15. Also, in
a parallel hybrid, you do NOT "turn on" the batteries, they charge and
discharge through normal driving conditions, charging while braking or
coasting and discharging while accelerating or climbing hills
(typically the periods when the ICE engine is working the hardest and
therefore getting the fewest mpg). All of this is included in the 50
MPG estimate. It really is meaningless therefore to talk about the
mileage while operating under "battery" power in a prius.
Particularly given that if for example, you were to hack the prius
computer such that it WAS capable of driving on battery electric
alone, it would go roughly .5 mile at a speed not to exceed 30 mph.

There really is only one meaningful statistic as regards the
efficiency of any of the current crop of vehicles, and that is MPG.
When the PHEVs and straight EVs come out, we can start to talk about
amp hours, range, and MPG with and without fully charged batteries,
MPG on short trips versus long, etcetera, however for today, all the
cars on the road are fueled exclusively by liquid fuels and the only
meaningful measurement is MPG.

You are under some very serious misconceptions about what a current
hybrid IS.

I'm not sure what you mean by current hybrids - other than the
hydrogen cars, all hybrids run partially on current.
And that's my point.

You want to include the power from the current in the MPG. Current
isn't measured in gallons, therefore it's excluded from the
calculation.

On Apr 15, 10:50 am, bill <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote:



On Apr 15, 8:10 am, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"

the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 14, 4:26 pm, bill <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 14, 3:28 pm, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"

the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 14, 1:24 pm, bill <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote:

You are being silly yes? I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not a hybrid, therefore not as efficient for the environment.
Hybrid means that it has more than one technology integrated into the
vehicle. Hybrid does not mean efficient. The Jetta diesel gets 52mpg
and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all. But hybrids are better than the diesels because
they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and get
better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -

I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.

When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel.

Please quit making yourself look so stupid.

There's really no call for rudeness.
Batteries aren't measured by the gallon. They're measured by the amp
hour.

here's the thing. the current generation of hybrids are parallel
hybrids. That means that any time they are moving, the ICE is burning
fuel, they are NEVER running "on batteries". You cannot run them on
grid electricity. That means that the best comparison between
vehicles is MPG. The deisels have a slightly unfair advantage in that
regard due to the extra energy contained in the fuel, they can be
equally thermally efficient and still get more MPG due to the extra.

Now, when the PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) hits the market
(there is none currently available for sale) THEN we can start talking
about running "on batteries" and the amp hour storage of the batteries
will become relevant. However, until that time... Well, you posts
have indicated that you are seriously misinformed. Some here tend to
be rude under those conditions.

I'm not misinformed, he's just not good at math.

Here's an example:
The Prius gets about 50 MPG. When you turn on the batteries, even if
the engine is half working, that's 75 MPG for the engine.

a.

Incorrect. The 50 mpg is an AVERAGE taken to include the periods of
going downhill at infinite MPG as well as the uphills at 15. Also, in
a parallel hybrid, you do NOT "turn on" the batteries, they charge and
discharge through normal driving conditions, charging while braking or
coasting and discharging while accelerating or climbing hills
(typically the periods when the ICE engine is working the hardest and
therefore getting the fewest mpg). All of this is included in the 50
MPG estimate. It really is meaningless therefore to talk about the
mileage while operating under "battery" power in a prius.
Particularly given that if for example, you were to hack the prius
computer such that it WAS capable of driving on battery electric
alone, it would go roughly .5 mile at a speed not to exceed 30 mph.

There really is only one meaningful statistic as regards the
efficiency of any of the current crop of vehicles, and that is MPG.
When the PHEVs and straight EVs come out, we can start to talk about
amp hours, range, and MPG with and without fully charged batteries,
MPG on short trips versus long, etcetera, however for today, all the
cars on the road are fueled exclusively by liquid fuels and the only
meaningful measurement is MPG.

You are under some very serious misconceptions about what a current
hybrid IS.

I'm not sure what you mean by current hybrids - other than the
hydrogen cars, all hybrids run partially on current.
And that's my point.

No They do not! they run exclusively on liquid fuels (don't even
talk about hydrogen, that was an even dumber idea than ethanol),

If hydrogen is such a bad idea, why don't we use gasoline to send
rockets to space?

Hydrogen is a great idea with some bad implementation and a non-
existent infrastructure. Nuclear electric generated hydrogen fueled
cars would be awesome and clean. Not to mention incredibly powerful.

Some
small fraction of the liquid fuels burned in the prius get converted
to electricity which is then used to move the car, but if you never
plug it in and have no solar panel, then you can make no claim that
they "run on" current, the only input is fuel, so they run on fuel.
By "current hybrids" I mean any vehicle currently sold on the open
market in quantities greater than 50 cars.

Well that makes sense. But when they aren't buring fuel, they are
running on current, which doesn't use fuel and is better for the
environment.

You want to include the power from the current in the MPG. Current
isn't measured in gallons, therefore it's excluded from the
calculation.

There IS NO CURRENT! That's my point! When you can plug the
damned thing in, THEN we can talk about MPKWH, until then, it's just
plain ignorant to even think about anything other than mpg. You are
seriously justifying the earlier accusations of stupidity here.

So, now you're going to be rude.

Do all of you work for Exxon or something?

bill wrote:
On Apr 14, 1:30 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" <e...@eio.com> wrote:
"bill" <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote

You are being silly yes? I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not ahybrid, therefore not as efficient for the environment.
Hybridmeans that it has more than one technology integrated into the
vehicle.Hybriddoes not mean efficient. The Jetta diesel gets 52mpg
and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all. But hybrids are better than the diesels because
they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and get
better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -
I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel.
Please quit making yourself look so stupid.
There's really no call for rudeness.
Batteries aren't measured by the gallon. They're measured by the amp
hour.
here's the thing. the current generation of hybrids are parallel
hybrids. That means that any time they are moving, the ICE is burning
fuel, they are NEVER running "on batteries". You cannot run them on
grid electricity. That means that the best comparison between
vehicles is MPG. The deisels have a slightly unfair advantage in that
regard due to the extra energy contained in the fuel, they can be
equally thermally efficient and still get more MPG due to the extra.
Now, when the PHEV (Plug inHybridElectric Vehicle) hits the market
(there is none currently available for sale) THEN we can start talking
about running "on batteries" and the amp hour storage of the batteries
will become relevant. However, until that time... Well, you posts
have indicated that you are seriously misinformed. Some here tend to
be rude under those conditions.
I thought some of the hybrids recharged their batteries when coasting
or braking.

--Tedward

They do, regenerative braking is 60% of the advantage that is gained
from going to ahybriddesign. Some even shut off the engine during
that time (if you have the A/C off or in "econ" mode), but when they
accelerate again, the batteries only assist the ICE in accelerating
the car. So I guess there are a few times when the vehicle is moving
and NOT consuming fossil fuels (coasting, braking), but those
represent a very small percentage of the total mileage driven, so they
just go into the mix of the MPG.

And none have 12 hours of continuous battery that could get you the
equivalent of 52mpg with the air conditioner and at 70 - 80 mph.

I am sometimes short with people that are wrong, when I tell them they
are wrong and they don't bother to do a 30 second google search to
investigate, but instead whine that I'm all wrong.

"I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel"

First.... all vehicles use fuel, battery cars use
coal,NatGas,Diesel,Nuclear.... converted to electric, then stored by
charging the battery.

A simplehybridsearch will inform someone that ahybridisn't a 100%
battery powered vehicle.

They cost more than a normal car, they are
complicated and repairs will be costly,

even a battery powered vehicle
needs to charge which shows up on your electric bill and if that is a
coal fired electric plant you still used carbon fuel.

"bill" <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:efd15ed7-d23a-4aa7-a7ce-2c2fe4a1be6d@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 15, 11:07 am, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well that makes sense. But when they aren't buring fuel, they are
running on current, which doesn't use fuel and is better for the
environment.

They are always burning fuel. They never run on current. That's
what we have been trying to drill into your head.

I think you're confusing "Full Hybrid" vs. "Hybrid Assist". Full hybrid
systems are quite capable of running entirely on their electric motors,
whereas the assist types only use the electric motor as a boost or an
assistance and are incapable of running on the electric motors alone.
Examples of Full hybrids are the Prius & Ford Escape. An example of the
latter would be the Honda Civic hybrid which does require the engine to run
to power the vehicle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Vehicle_Drivetrains#Types_by_degr...

They do, regenerative braking is 60% of the advantage that is gained
from going to ahybriddesign. Some even shut off the engine during
that time (if you have the A/C off or in "econ" mode), but when they
accelerate again, the batteries only assist the ICE in accelerating
the car. So I guess there are a few times when the vehicle is moving
and NOT consuming fossil fuels (coasting, braking), but those
represent a very small percentage of the total mileage driven, so they
just go into the mix of the MPG.

And none have 12 hours of continuous battery that could get you the
equivalent of 52mpg with the air conditioner and at 70 - 80 mph.

I am sometimes short with people that are wrong, when I tell them they
are wrong and they don't bother to do a 30 second google search to
investigate, but instead whine that I'm all wrong.

"I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel"

First.... all vehicles use fuel, battery cars use
coal,NatGas,Diesel,Nuclear.... converted to electric, then stored by
charging the battery.

Plus energy from regenerative braking.

A simple hybrid search will inform someone that a hybrid isn't a 100%
battery powered vehicle.

Which is why they're called hybrids and not electric cars.

They cost more than a normal car, they are
complicated and repairs will be costly,

No evidence of that. And with an 8-year/100,000 mile warranty on the
Prius' hybrid components, it'll be a long time before anybody knows
that.

On Apr 14, 5:14 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:18 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:52 am, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 12, 10:19 pm, Poetic Justice
@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n- Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 12, 4:35 pm, Jaybyrd <jaybyrdb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:19 am, Tom Enright <freddy_ha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:09 am, Mercellus Bohren <mercell...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I'm going to buy a hybrid vehicle in 2008. Does anyone know
what type of hybrid vehicle will get me the biggest tax
credit when tax time rolls around in 2009?
Thanks for any useful information. Trolls and other
ner-do-wells should stop and consider any hurtful replies!
The  Chevy Tahoe Hybrid gets around 21mpg.  Can't get close
to beating that.
You are being silly yes?   I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not a hybrid, therefore not as efficient for the
environment.
Hybrid means that it has more than one technology integrated into
the vehicle. Hybrid does not mean efficient.  The Jetta diesel
gets 52mpg and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all.  But hybrids are better than the diesels
because they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and
get better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -
I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons. When Hybrids
run on batteries they don't even use fuel.
Please quit making yourself look so stupid.

There's really no call for rudeness.

yes there is.

no there isn't.

When you don't listen, it needs to be brought to your attention.

Listen?

First of all, this chat room uses text so the proper term would be "read".

Second, I brought something to your attention, but didn't have such a weak
point that I felt the need to be rude.

You should get older before you get on the chat boards.

a.

You should get older before you get on the chat boards.

And third, this isn't a "chat board", it's a newsgroup. Lurk before you
leap.

On Apr 15, 11:07 am, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well that makes sense. But when they aren't buring fuel, they are
running on current, which doesn't use fuel and is better for the
environment.

They are always burning fuel. They never run on current. That's
what we have been trying to drill into your head.

On Apr 14, 4:52 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
bill wrote:
On Apr 14, 1:30 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" <e...@eio.com> wrote:
"bill" <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote
You are being silly yes? I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not ahybrid, therefore not as efficient for the environment.
Hybridmeans that it has more than one technology integrated into the
vehicle.Hybriddoes not mean efficient. The Jetta diesel gets 52mpg
and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all. But hybrids are better than the diesels because
they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and get
better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -
I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel.
Please quit making yourself look so stupid.
There's really no call for rudeness.
Batteries aren't measured by the gallon. They're measured by the amp
hour.
here's the thing. the current generation of hybrids are parallel
hybrids. That means that any time they are moving, the ICE is burning
fuel, they are NEVER running "on batteries". You cannot run them on
grid electricity. That means that the best comparison between
vehicles is MPG. The deisels have a slightly unfair advantage in that
regard due to the extra energy contained in the fuel, they can be
equally thermally efficient and still get more MPG due to the extra.
Now, when the PHEV (Plug inHybridElectric Vehicle) hits the market
(there is none currently available for sale) THEN we can start talking
about running "on batteries" and the amp hour storage of the batteries
will become relevant. However, until that time... Well, you posts
have indicated that you are seriously misinformed. Some here tend to
be rude under those conditions.
I thought some of the hybrids recharged their batteries when coasting
or braking.
--Tedward
They do, regenerative braking is 60% of the advantage that is gained
from going to ahybriddesign. Some even shut off the engine during
that time (if you have the A/C off or in "econ" mode), but when they
accelerate again, the batteries only assist the ICE in accelerating
the car. So I guess there are a few times when the vehicle is moving
and NOT consuming fossil fuels (coasting, braking), but those
represent a very small percentage of the total mileage driven, so they
just go into the mix of the MPG.
And none have 12 hours of continuous battery that could get you the
equivalent of 52mpg with the air conditioner and at 70 - 80 mph.

I am sometimes short with people that are wrong, when I tell them they
are wrong and they don't bother to do a 30 second google search to
investigate, but instead whine that I'm all wrong.

"I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons.
When Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel"

First.... all vehicles use fuel, battery cars use
coal,NatGas,Diesel,Nuclear.... converted to electric, then stored by
charging the battery.

Plus energy from regenerative braking.

A simplehybridsearch will inform someone that ahybridisn't a 100%
battery powered vehicle.

Which is why they're called hybrids and not electric cars.

That's why I explained it twice.

They cost more than a normal car, they are
complicated and repairs will be costly,

No evidence of that. And with an 8-year/100,000 mile warranty on the
Prius' hybrid components, it'll be a long time before anybody knows
that.

even a battery powered vehicle
needs to charge which shows up on your electric bill and if that is a
coal fired electric plant you still used carbon fuel.

On Apr 15, 12:48 pm, "qwerty" <nos...@all.noway.com> wrote:
"bill" <ford_prefec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:efd15ed7-d23a-4aa7-a7ce-2c2fe4a1be6d@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 15, 11:07 am, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well that makes sense. But when they aren't buring fuel, they are
running on current, which doesn't use fuel and is better for the
environment.

They are always burning fuel. They never run on current. That's
what we have been trying to drill into your head.

I think you're confusing "Full Hybrid" vs. "Hybrid Assist". Full hybrid
systems are quite capable of running entirely on their electric motors,
whereas the assist types only use the electric motor as a boost or an
assistance and are incapable of running on the electric motors alone.
Examples of Full hybrids are the Prius & Ford Escape. An example of the
latter would be the Honda Civic hybrid which does require the engine to
run
to power the vehicle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Vehicle_Drivetrains#Types_by_degr...

Just because the damned things have the "capability" of going 15 mph
for .5 miles as long as you don't intend to do anything silly like
accelerate away from a stop light with the engine off does NOT mean
that that needs to be figured in the mileage estimates, in fact it is
INCLUDED in the estimates as given!

I KNOW what the drivetrains look
like, and FWIW, with only 10 times the battery capacity, and a serious
code rewrite, the prius would be capable of being an absolutely shitty
PHEV.

That is a gimmick, not a transit regime. In any serious
transit regime,

the prius and every other "hybrid" on the market the
damned things use fuel ALL THE TIME!

Not only that, but the energy
that the thing runs on when it is running "on batteries" was generated
by the ICE in the first place!

The hybrids that produce real results will be the ones where the ICE
is not even connected to the drivetrain and the entire system is run
off battery power with the ICE strapped on as a simple range
extender.

The PHEV will make a meaningful difference in fuel
consumption and be better for the environment,

the current publicity
stunts are nothing more than suckers bets suitable only for pizza
delivery drivers.

Well that makes sense. But when they aren't buring fuel, they are
running on current, which doesn't use fuel and is better for the
environment.

They are always burning fuel. They never run on current. That's
what we have been trying to drill into your head.

I think you're confusing "Full Hybrid" vs. "Hybrid Assist". Full hybrid
systems are quite capable of running entirely on their electric motors,
whereas the assist types only use the electric motor as a boost or an
assistance and are incapable of running on the electric motors alone.
Examples of Full hybrids are the Prius & Ford Escape. An example of the
latter would be the Honda Civic hybrid which does require the engine to
run
to power the vehicle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Vehicle_Drivetrains#Types_by_degr...

Just because the damned things have the "capability" of going 15 mph
for .5 miles as long as you don't intend to do anything silly like
accelerate away from a stop light with the engine off does NOT mean
that that needs to be figured in the mileage estimates, in fact it is
INCLUDED in the estimates as given!

Who said otherwise? However, there are times that the Prius is NOT burning
fuel are NOT "always buring fuel" as you claimed and apparently now admit!

I KNOW what the drivetrains look
like, and FWIW, with only 10 times the battery capacity, and a serious
code rewrite, the prius would be capable of being an absolutely shitty
PHEV.

Is Toyota marketing the Prius as a PHEV?

That is a gimmick, not a transit regime. In any serious
transit regime,

Just what the hell is a "serious transit regime"? Hybrids get better
mileage in the city as opposed to highway, which many would consider a
serious transit regime. I think that what constitutes a "serious transit
regime" is in the eye of the beholder. The Prius is an excellent commuter
car or even a family car.

the prius and every other "hybrid" on the market the
damned things use fuel ALL THE TIME!

Well, that's clearly not true! Have you ever ridden or driven a Prius?
Clearly there are times when the engine is not running and thus not using
fuel "ALL THE TIME!" as you claimed!

Not only that, but the energy
that the thing runs on when it is running "on batteries" was generated
by the ICE in the first place!

Or by braking, going downhill, etc.. However, no one is saying that the
energy is absolutely free only that hybrids like the Prius are very
efficient on using that energy, trying to waste little and recover what they
can as opposed to simply throwing it away as heat, such as in braking.

The hybrids that produce real results will be the ones where the ICE
is not even connected to the drivetrain and the entire system is run
off battery power with the ICE strapped on as a simple range
extender.

Of course, who here is saying otherwise? However, in the mean time the
hybrids like the Prius are very good.

The PHEV will make a meaningful difference in fuel
consumption and be better for the environment,

They Prius is about the cleanest practical car on the road today.

the current publicity
stunts are nothing more than suckers bets suitable only for pizza
delivery drivers.

Well when the PHEV's are available then many of the people who own Prius or
in the market for one will flock to buy them. However, in the mean
time.........

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 05:08:44 -0700, the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 5:14 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:18 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:52 am, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 12, 10:19 pm, Poetic Justice
@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 12, 4:35 pm, Jaybyrd <jaybyrdb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:19 am, Tom Enright <freddy_ha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:09 am, Mercellus Bohren <mercell...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I'm going to buy a hybrid vehicle in 2008. Does anyone know
what type of hybrid vehicle will get me the biggest tax
credit when tax time rolls around in 2009?
Thanks for any useful information. Trolls and other
ner-do-wells should stop and consider any hurtful replies!
The  Chevy Tahoe Hybrid gets around 21mpg.  Can't get close
to beating that.
You are being silly yes?   I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not a hybrid, therefore not as efficient for the
environment.
Hybrid means that it has more than one technology integrated into
the vehicle. Hybrid does not mean efficient.  The Jetta diesel
gets 52mpg and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all.  But hybrids are better than the diesels
because they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip and
get better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -
I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons. When Hybrids
run on batteries they don't even use fuel.
Please quit making yourself look so stupid.

There's really no call for rudeness.

yes there is.

no there isn't.

When you don't listen, it needs to be brought to your attention.

Listen?

First of all, this chat room uses text so the proper term would be "read".

Second, I brought something to your attention, but didn't have such a weak
point that I felt the need to be rude.

You should get older before you get on the chat boards.

a.

And third, this isn't a "chat board", it's a newsgroup.  Lurk before you
leap.  

On Apr 15, 12:22 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 05:08:44 -0700, the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 5:14 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:18 pm, Poetic Justice <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:52 am, Poetic Justice
@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n- Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 12, 10:19 pm, Poetic Justice
@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-Dog.com> wrote:
the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 12, 4:35 pm, Jaybyrd <jaybyrdb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:19 am, Tom Enright <freddy_ha...@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Apr 8, 11:09 am, Mercellus Bohren <mercell...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I'm going to buy a hybrid vehicle in 2008. Does anyone
know what type of hybrid vehicle will get me the biggest
tax credit when tax time rolls around in 2009? Thanks for
any useful information. Trolls and other ner-do-wells
should stop and consider any hurtful replies!
The  Chevy Tahoe Hybrid gets around 21mpg.  Can't get
close to beating that.
You are being silly yes?   I get 20mpg with a caravan.
But it's not a hybrid, therefore not as efficient for the
environment.
Hybrid means that it has more than one technology integrated
into the vehicle. Hybrid does not mean efficient.  The Jetta
diesel gets 52mpg and that's better than some hybrids.
That's nice and all.  But hybrids are better than the diesels
because they use less fuel.
name one that will go on a continuous 12 hour interstate trip
and get better than 52mpg.- Hide quoted text -
I'm not sure why you keep making these MPG comparisons. When
Hybrids run on batteries they don't even use fuel.
Please quit making yourself look so stupid.

There's really no call for rudeness.

yes there is.

no there isn't.

When you don't listen, it needs to be brought to your attention.

Listen?

First of all, this chat room uses text so the proper term would be
"read".

Second, I brought something to your attention, but didn't have such a
weak point that I felt the need to be rude.

You should get older before you get on the chat boards.

a.

And third, this isn't a "chat board", it's a newsgroup.  Lurk before
you leap.

I'm pretty sure I'm typing in the google groups chat board.

If I wanted newsgroups, I would go to google news.