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Science Forum Index » Engineering - Lighting Forum » Timer for CFLs?
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| Justin |
 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:29 pm |
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Guest
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Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs? |
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| Charles |
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:56 pm |
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Guest
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On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
<Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Quote: Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
I use the receptacle times on my aquariums all the time, never gave it
a thought. I don't see why CFL would make any difference. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:38 am |
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Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
Quote: Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
I have used two different Intermatic wall-switch timers on my front porch
light. The first one was electromechanical and the present one is
electronic. The electromechanical one drew a little bit of current
through the lamp when the lamp was off to run the timer motor, and some
CFLs didn't like this that much, as manifested by short life. Nothing
spectacular happened; the lamp just died in a couple of months as
opposed to lasting a year or more. The electronic one has an AAA
battery and a bistable relay; it doesn't draw any current through the
lamp and only draws significant current from the battery twice a day.
I haven't experienced short CFL life at all on this timer.
Quote: What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Probably almost any of them would work. The receptacle timer has a
direct connection to both sides of the AC line for the timer motor, and
so doesn't have to draw any current through the lamp when the lamp is
off. The electromechanical ones all use a simple contact closure to
switch the load, which is exactly the same thing as a normal toggle
switch.
Quote: If they ban incandescent how is that going to work?
About as well as banning booze did.
Matt Roberds |
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| Justin |
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:57 am |
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Guest
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mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
Quote: Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
I have used two different Intermatic wall-switch timers on my front porch
light. The first one was electromechanical and the present one is
electronic. The electromechanical one drew a little bit of current
through the lamp when the lamp was off to run the timer motor, and some
CFLs didn't like this that much, as manifested by short life. Nothing
spectacular happened; the lamp just died in a couple of months as
opposed to lasting a year or more. The electronic one has an AAA
battery and a bistable relay; it doesn't draw any current through the
lamp and only draws significant current from the battery twice a day.
I haven't experienced short CFL life at all on this timer.
I saw two at Lowe's - one clearly say no ballast or fluorescent.
The other didn't say no fluorescent. I'll jot down the model number and
contact the manufacturer. I doubt the kids they have working there will
know.
Quote:
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Probably almost any of them would work. The receptacle timer has a
direct connection to both sides of the AC line for the timer motor, and
so doesn't have to draw any current through the lamp when the lamp is
off. The electromechanical ones all use a simple contact closure to
switch the load, which is exactly the same thing as a normal toggle
switch.
I tried one internatic with the pegs and it was making a bussing noice -
almost like there was some internal arcing going on.
Quote:
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work?
About as well as banning booze did.
I see a business opportunity... |
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| Victor Roberts |
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:17 pm |
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Guest
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On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
<Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Quote: Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
Yes, there are some timers that will work with CFLs, but you
may have to test a few to find ones that work.
There are two issues:
1) If the times has only two wire connections (and does not
have its own battery power supply) it need to draw some
small amount of power through the lamp load. This is not a
problem with incandescent lamps but will cause CFLs to pulse
on for short periods at a slow rate - which will destroy the
lamps while it drives you nuts. This problem can be solved
with a small fixed load across the lamp, but this is not a
normal consumer fix.
Quote: If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
People will make wall times that work with CFLs. .
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| TKM |
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:46 pm |
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Guest
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"Victor Roberts" <xxx@lighting-research.com> wrote in message
news:purcv31vtiqq5u6s8cp1fhok6sn7uc3qbo@4ax.com...
Quote: On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
Yes, there are some timers that will work with CFLs, but you
may have to test a few to find ones that work.
There are two issues:
1) If the times has only two wire connections (and does not
have its own battery power supply) it need to draw some
small amount of power through the lamp load. This is not a
problem with incandescent lamps but will cause CFLs to pulse
on for short periods at a slow rate - which will destroy the
lamps while it drives you nuts. This problem can be solved
with a small fixed load across the lamp, but this is not a
normal consumer fix.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
People will make wall timers that work with CFLs. .
--
Vic Roberts
And dimmers that dim nicely too, no doubt.
I'd also like to see a CFL that mimics a dimming incandescent where the
spectral output of the light shifts toward red as the light output goes
down. Yes, I know that's going to be difficult; so, perhaps, we'll have to
wait for that feature in the LED versions.
Terry McGowan |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:15 pm |
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On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 06:38:55 GMT mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
| I have used two different Intermatic wall-switch timers on my front porch
| light. The first one was electromechanical and the present one is
| electronic. The electromechanical one drew a little bit of current
| through the lamp when the lamp was off to run the timer motor, and some
| CFLs didn't like this that much, as manifested by short life. Nothing
| spectacular happened; the lamp just died in a couple of months as
| opposed to lasting a year or more. The electronic one has an AAA
| battery and a bistable relay; it doesn't draw any current through the
| lamp and only draws significant current from the battery twice a day.
| I haven't experienced short CFL life at all on this timer.
I wonder how hard it would be to design one that stores energy in a
rechargeable battery, charges it only when the light is on via the
current going through to power the light, and runs the electronic
timer from that battery when the light is off.
--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-04-05-1613@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------| |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:00 pm |
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phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
Quote: On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 06:38:55 GMT mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
| The electronic one has an AAA battery and a bistable relay; it
| doesn't draw any current through the lamp and only draws significant
| current from the battery twice a day.
I wonder how hard it would be to design one that stores energy in
a rechargeable battery, charges it only when the light is on via the
current going through to power the light, and runs the electronic
timer from that battery when the light is off.
This is how many older setback thermostats worked; they drew current
through the fan relay coil in the furnance (relay off) to operate the
clock motor and charge a small NiCd battery. When the fan relay was
on, the clock motor was powered by the battery.
The electronic timer I have switches twice a day (off in the morning,
on in the evening) and gets a year or so out of an AAA alkaline battery,
so I'm happy with the battery life.
One problem with using a rechargeable battery in this application, even
in a circuit that is designed for it, is that some chemistries (NiMH in
particular) have a rather high self-discharge rate, on the order of 1%
of remaining capacity a day. If the lamp was off for a long period of
time - manually shut off by the user, or burned out - the battery could
discharge fairly quickly.
Matt Roberds |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:03 pm |
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On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:46:00 GMT TKM <nomail@no.net> wrote:
| I'd also like to see a CFL that mimics a dimming incandescent where the
| spectral output of the light shifts toward red as the light output goes
| down. Yes, I know that's going to be difficult; so, perhaps, we'll have to
| wait for that feature in the LED versions.
I'd rather someone make a dimming incandescent that keeps the same color
throughout the range. Seriously. Yeah, I know that will be hard. That's
why I suggested the idea of lots of small low voltage halogen bulbs that
are selectively powered on or off as desired.
--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-04-05-1701@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------| |
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| Justin |
| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:31 pm |
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Guest
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Victor Roberts wrote:
Quote: On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
Yes, there are some timers that will work with CFLs, but you
may have to test a few to find ones that work.
There are two issues:
1) If the times has only two wire connections (and does not
have its own battery power supply) it need to draw some
small amount of power through the lamp load. This is not a
problem with incandescent lamps but will cause CFLs to pulse
on for short periods at a slow rate - which will destroy the
lamps while it drives you nuts. This problem can be solved
with a small fixed load across the lamp, but this is not a
normal consumer fix.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
People will make wall times that work with CFLs. .
What about this one?
Intermatic ST01CL
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image014co6.jpg |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:20 pm |
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Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
This appears to be an updated version of the one that I am using to
switch the CFL on my front porch. The manufacturer's page is at
http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=prod&pid=9472&did=5&cid=43&sid=112
and that page claims "Controls lighting including fluorescent" and
gives a ballast rating, both of which are good indications that it can
switch CFLs without difficulty. Looking at the instruction manual, one
strike against this timer is that it uses a goofball battery (CR2, 3
volt); mine uses a normal AAA 1.5 volt battery.
Matt Roberds |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:26 pm |
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On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 22:00:20 GMT mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 06:38:55 GMT mroberds@worldnet.att.net wrote:
|>
|> | The electronic one has an AAA battery and a bistable relay; it
|> | doesn't draw any current through the lamp and only draws significant
|> | current from the battery twice a day.
|>
|> I wonder how hard it would be to design one that stores energy in
|> a rechargeable battery, charges it only when the light is on via the
|> current going through to power the light, and runs the electronic
|> timer from that battery when the light is off.
|
| This is how many older setback thermostats worked; they drew current
| through the fan relay coil in the furnance (relay off) to operate the
| clock motor and charge a small NiCd battery. When the fan relay was
| on, the clock motor was powered by the battery.
I'm suggesting that the battery be charged during the _on_ times, and
the clock run from the battery during _off_ times. This would not work
for a motor clock. But a CMOS clock could do it.
| One problem with using a rechargeable battery in this application, even
| in a circuit that is designed for it, is that some chemistries (NiMH in
| particular) have a rather high self-discharge rate, on the order of 1%
| of remaining capacity a day. If the lamp was off for a long period of
| time - manually shut off by the user, or burned out - the battery could
| discharge fairly quickly.
Or in the case I'm suggesting, the device under control not be turned on
for a very long time. It would need to have a manual-on button _and_ do
the charge during manual on. Then you could simply turn the device on
via the manual on button (closes the circuit long enough to get enough
current to turn the solid state switch on).
--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-04-07-1622@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------| |
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| Victor Roberts |
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:29 pm |
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Guest
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On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:46:00 GMT, "TKM" <nomail@no.net>
wrote:
Quote:
"Victor Roberts" <xxx@lighting-research.com> wrote in message
news:purcv31vtiqq5u6s8cp1fhok6sn7uc3qbo@4ax.com...
On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
Yes, there are some timers that will work with CFLs, but you
may have to test a few to find ones that work.
There are two issues:
1) If the times has only two wire connections (and does not
have its own battery power supply) it need to draw some
small amount of power through the lamp load. This is not a
problem with incandescent lamps but will cause CFLs to pulse
on for short periods at a slow rate - which will destroy the
lamps while it drives you nuts. This problem can be solved
with a small fixed load across the lamp, but this is not a
normal consumer fix.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
People will make wall timers that work with CFLs. .
--
Vic Roberts
And dimmers that dim nicely too, no doubt.
I'd also like to see a CFL that mimics a dimming incandescent where the
spectral output of the light shifts toward red as the light output goes
down. Yes, I know that's going to be difficult; so, perhaps, we'll have to
wait for that feature in the LED versions.
Terry McGowan
I don't think any CFL will give you the desired color shift.
LEDs can, but I have yet to find a company that understands
that they should! Everyone seems to brag about NO color
change with dimming.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Victor Roberts |
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:32 pm |
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Guest
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On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:31:41 -0400, Justin
<Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Quote: Victor Roberts wrote:
On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
Yes, there are some timers that will work with CFLs, but you
may have to test a few to find ones that work.
There are two issues:
1) If the times has only two wire connections (and does not
have its own battery power supply) it need to draw some
small amount of power through the lamp load. This is not a
problem with incandescent lamps but will cause CFLs to pulse
on for short periods at a slow rate - which will destroy the
lamps while it drives you nuts. This problem can be solved
with a small fixed load across the lamp, but this is not a
normal consumer fix.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
People will make wall times that work with CFLs. .
What about this one?
Intermatic ST01CL
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image014co6.jpg
If it controls motors it probably uses a mechanical relay.
if it does, it can control CFLs as long as it does not need
to draw current through the load when it is open.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Back to top |
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| TKM |
| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:40 pm |
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Guest
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"Victor Roberts" <xxx@lighting-research.com> wrote in message
news:2iilv35706qafcqsl4uk4a37cqlden41da@4ax.com...
Quote: On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:46:00 GMT, "TKM" <nomail@no.net
wrote:
"Victor Roberts" <xxx@lighting-research.com> wrote in message
news:purcv31vtiqq5u6s8cp1fhok6sn7uc3qbo@4ax.com...
On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:29:40 -0400, Justin
Justin@NobecauseIhatespam.net> wrote:
Two things... Are there ant in wall switch timers that can be used for
CFLs?
What about receptacle timers that can be used with CFLs?
Something available at Lowes or Home Depot would be preferable.
Yes, there are some timers that will work with CFLs, but you
may have to test a few to find ones that work.
There are two issues:
1) If the times has only two wire connections (and does not
have its own battery power supply) it need to draw some
small amount of power through the lamp load. This is not a
problem with incandescent lamps but will cause CFLs to pulse
on for short periods at a slow rate - which will destroy the
lamps while it drives you nuts. This problem can be solved
with a small fixed load across the lamp, but this is not a
normal consumer fix.
If they ban incandescent how is that going to work? Is it a big deal to
make timers that can handle CFLs?
People will make wall timers that work with CFLs. .
--
Vic Roberts
And dimmers that dim nicely too, no doubt.
I'd also like to see a CFL that mimics a dimming incandescent where the
spectral output of the light shifts toward red as the light output goes
down. Yes, I know that's going to be difficult; so, perhaps, we'll have
to
wait for that feature in the LED versions.
Terry McGowan
I don't think any CFL will give you the desired color shift.
LEDs can, but I have yet to find a company that understands
that they should! Everyone seems to brag about NO color
change with dimming.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
Well, I thought it would be worth mentioning especially now that LLF has
developed that clever color balance circuitry to keep their LL6 LED
downlight color constant. And, such features are needed as high-efficiency
lighting makes its way into residential applications.
Terry McGowan |
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