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Science Forum Index » Astronomy Forum » Exact Motion of Earth???
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| G=EMC^2 Glazier |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:06 am |
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Guest
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Yes lots of question marks. Reality is,even if there were just three
heavenly bodies the equations become so complicated that no one has
solved a three body system. So we by pass this by just using the great
mass of the sun,and its proximity to the earth. We get a good estimate
by considering only the sun's gravitational influence. Still maybe with
computers we can bring in the next most relevant bodies (moon+ close
planets) to sharpen up this situation. Still I worry about this when
I think of Tri-stars Go figure Bert |
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| Jeff▲Relf |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:31 am |
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Multiple star systems aren't stable unless they're in a hierarchy.
Imagine the earth and the moon as stars.. that's what it's like.
Both the earth and the moon are orbiting a common center of gravity,
like a spinning dumbbell ( emitting gravitational waves ).
The moon itself might have a smaller moon, and so on. |
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| G=EMC^2 Glazier |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:17 am |
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Jeff Please do not change the posts headings I think that is not good.
Post your shit6 under the titled post. Don't act like A DUMBBELL |
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| Saul Levy |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:40 am |
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The Moon and Earth are stable, Jeff. For at least 12,500 years
according to BradGoofBall! lmao!
More like well over 4 BILLION YEARS! lmao!
The same applies to multiple stars.
Saul Levy
On 2 Apr 2008 15:31:02 GMT, Jeff?Relf <X@X.Invalid> wrote:
Quote: Multiple star systems aren't stable unless they're in a hierarchy.
Imagine the earth and the moon as stars.. that's what it's like.
Both the earth and the moon are orbiting a common center of gravity,
like a spinning dumbbell ( emitting gravitational waves ).
The moon itself might have a smaller moon, and so on. |
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| Jeff▲Relf |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:45 pm |
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What makes you think I think the earth-moon system isn't stable ?
When calculating orbits around the sun,
the center of gravity of the earth-moon system
might be simplified to a single point.
Simplifications like that are possible because
the earth-moon system is such a “ stable hierarchy ”. |
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| Saul Levy |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:15 pm |
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Because you said so, Jeff? lmao!
Saul Levy
On 2 Apr 2008 17:45:52 GMT, Jeff?Relf <X@X.Invalid> wrote:
Quote: What makes you think I think the earth-moon system isn't stable ?
When calculating orbits around the sun,
the center of gravity of the earth-moon system
might be simplified to a single point.
Simplifications like that are possible because
the earth-moon system is such a stable hierarchy . |
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| Mark Earnest |
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:53 pm |
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"Jeff?Relf" <X@X.Invalid> wrote in message
news:Jeff_Relf_2008_Apr_2__8_31_AD@X.Invalid...
Quote: Multiple star systems aren't stable unless they're in a hierarchy.
Sure they are. Gravity will find a way.
Quote: Imagine the earth and the moon as stars.. that's what it's like.
Both the earth and the moon are orbiting a common center of gravity,
like a spinning dumbbell ( emitting gravitational waves ).
The moon itself might have a smaller moon, and so on.
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| Painius |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:13 am |
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"Jeff?Relf" <X@X.Invalid> wrote in message...
news:Jeff_Relf_2008_Apr_2__8_31_AD@X.Invalid...
Quote:
Multiple star systems aren't stable unless they're in a hierarchy.
Imagine the earth and the moon as stars.. that's what it's like.
Both the earth and the moon are orbiting a common center of gravity,
like a spinning dumbbell ( emitting gravitational waves ).
The moon itself might have a smaller moon, and so on.
Jeff, while mentally imaging the Earth-Moon system
this way helps us to understand many things about
it, this is in reality an oversimplification due to the
Sun's effect. Ralph Hertle sent me some images of
the Earth-Moon orbital paths around the Sun a few
weeks ago, and i uploaded them to my website...
http://paine_ellsworth.home.att.net/Selene_pics.html
As you can see, the paths alternately cross each other.
In fact, because of the nearness of the Earth-Moon
"double-planet" system to the Sun, the Moon never
actually moves "away" from the Sun like the satellites
of other planets. The Moon always "falls" toward the
Sun just as all the major planets do. Also, the Moon
never fully goes all the way "around" the Earth due to
the way the Earth-Moon system orbits the Sun.
There is no evidence that the Moon has a smaller
satellite in orbit. They have found two huge red dust
clouds, four or five times the size of the Moon, that
orbit in the Moon's L4 and L5 points. That's pretty
cool.
happy days and...
starry starry nights!
--
Indelibly yours,
Paine
P.S. Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S. (shh) Some secret sites...
http://painellsworth.net
http://savethechildren.org
http://eBook-eDen.secretsgolden.com |
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| Jeff▲Relf |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:34 pm |
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I didn't mean to imply that the Moon actually had
a “ smaller satellite ”, I was asking Bert to imagine it.
Also, Bert thought I was calling him a Dumbbell, it seems.
I think he's only reading the titles of my posts, if that.
Re: http://paine_ellsworth.home.att.net/Selene_pics.html
I didn't quite grasp what this was trying to illustrate.
You told me:
“ The Moon never fully goes all the way "around" the Earth
due to the way the Earth-Moon system orbits the Sun. ”.
I don't understand, WikiPedia says:
“ The Moon makes a complete orbit around the Earth
with respect to the fixed stars ( its sidereal period )
about once every 27.3 days. ”.
-- http://WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Moon#Orbit_and_relationship_to_Earth
P.S. My handle is “ Jeff▲Relf ”, not “ Jeff?Relf ”,
please turn-on your 8-bit characters and Unicode. |
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| Painius |
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:18 am |
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"Jeff?Relf" <X@X.Invalid> wrote in message...
news:Jeff_Relf_2008_Apr_4__0_34_Pi@X.Invalid...
Quote:
. . .
Re: http://paine_ellsworth.home.att.net/Selene_pics.html
I didn't quite grasp what this was trying to illustrate.
You told me:
?o The Moon never fully goes all the way "around" the Earth
due to the way the Earth-Moon system orbits the Sun. ?.
I don't understand, WikiPedia says:
?o The Moon makes a complete orbit around the Earth
with respect to the fixed stars ( its sidereal period )
about once every 27.3 days. ?.
-- http://WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Moon#Orbit_and_relationship_to_Earth
P.S. My handle is ?o Jeff-Relf ?, not ?o Jeff?Relf ?,
please turn-on your 8-bit characters and Unicode.
Ralph's images show the paths of the Earth and Moon in
orbit around the Sun. It's as if they are "racing"--first
the Earth's ahead, and then Selene takes the lead. Then
Earth pulls ahead again.
As i said, accepting that the Moon is in full orbit around
the Earth is useful to understand and simplify the many
facets of the relationship. But it's a common misnomer.
If planet Selene went fully around the Earth, then there
would be little loops in Selene's orbit around the Sun.
And there would be short periods when the Moon would
be moving away from the Sun as all satellites do at
some point in their orbits.
However, that's not the case. The Moon never moves
away from the Sun. It always "falls" toward the Sun as
all major planets do. And the Moon's orbit around the
Sun is scalloped and there are no loops. Astronomers
refer to this as a "convex" orbit...
http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/teaching/convex.html
It's true that this is due mainly to the nearness of Earth
and Selene to the Sun. Were they farther away, the
Moon's orbit around the Earth would begin to resemble
the orbits of satellites.
However, since they are NOT farther away, i count this
as one of many good reasons to reclassify the Moon as
a full-fledged major planet...
P l a n e t S e l e n e !
(can be pronounced with three syllables: say-'lay-nay)
happy days and...
starry starry nights!
--
Indelibly yours,
Paine
P.S. Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S. (shh) Some secret sites...
http://painellsworth.net
http://savethechildren.org
http://eBook-eDen.secretsgolden.com |
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| Jeff▲Relf |
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:32 am |
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Thanks to your help,
I now picture the earth and moon as two fast moving cars
taking turns passing each other, thus orbiting each other.
Relative to the cars' center of mass, it's a different orbit, i.e.:
“ Motion must always be specified with respect to another object. ”.
-- http://WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Milky_Way#Velocity
Our Milky Way is moving at 1.2 mega miles per hour ( 552 km/s )
relative to the Cosmic Microwave Background ( from the Big Bang ).
And the maser inside a GPS bird is moving at c
( relative to its inertial frame ) despite the fact that
the bird's angular velocity is 8.7 kilo miles per hour,
relative to the center of the earth.
-- www.Astronomy.Ohio-State.EDU/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html |
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| Painius |
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:42 pm |
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"Jeff?Relf<?@?.Invalid>" <=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=96=B2Relf?= =?UTF-8?Q?...
<=E2=9C=97@=E2=9C=97.Invalid>?=> wrote...
in message news:Jeff_Relf_2008_Apr_6__4_32_At@X.Invalid...
Quote:
Thanks to your help,
I now picture the earth and moon as two fast moving cars
taking turns passing each other, thus orbiting each other.
You're very welcome!
Quote: Relative to the cars' center of mass, it's a different orbit, i.e.:
?o Motion must always be specified with respect to another object. ?.
-- http://WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Milky_Way#Velocity
Our Milky Way is moving at 1.2 mega miles per hour ( 552 km/s )
relative to the Cosmic Microwave Background ( from the Big Bang ).
And the maser inside a GPS bird is moving at c
( relative to its inertial frame ) despite the fact that
the bird's angular velocity is 8.7 kilo miles per hour,
relative to the center of the earth.
-- www.Astronomy.Ohio-State.EDU/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html
happy days and...
starry starry nights!
--
Indelibly yours,
Paine
P.S. Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S. (shh) Some secret sites...
http://painellsworth.net
http://savethechildren.org
http://eBook-eDen.secretsgolden.com |
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| BradGuth |
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:12 am |
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On Apr 2, 7:06 am, herbertglaz...@webtv.net (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
Quote: Yes lots of question marks. Reality is,even if there were just three
heavenly bodies the equations become so complicated that no one has
solved a three body system. So we by pass this by just using the great
mass of the sun,and its proximity to the earth. We get a good estimate
by considering only the sun's gravitational influence. Still maybe with
computers we can bring in the next most relevant bodies (moon+ close
planets) to sharpen up this situation. Still I worry about this when
I think of Tri-stars Go figure Bert
Venus is somewhat if not nearly exactly tidal locked to Earth. Go
figure.
The mostly public owned supercomputers can in fact simulate these
multibody complex issues, within a great deal of precision and without
limits of going backwards or forwards in time.
.. - Brad Guth |
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| BradGuth |
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:15 am |
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On Apr 2, 9:17 am, herbertglaz...@webtv.net (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
Quote: Jeff Please do not change the posts headings I think that is not good.
Post your shit6 under the titled post. Don't act like A DUMBBELL
He can't possibly help it, because it's from an incest mutation of his
DNA.
.. - Brad Guth |
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| Zyp |
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:58 am |
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Jeff?Relf wrote:
Quote: I didn't mean to imply that the Moon actually had
a " smaller satellite ", I was asking Bert to imagine it.
Also, Bert thought I was calling him a Dumbbell, it seems.
I think he's only reading the titles of my posts, if that.
Re: http://paine_ellsworth.home.att.net/Selene_pics.html
I didn't quite grasp what this was trying to illustrate.
You told me:
" The Moon never fully goes all the way "around" the Earth
due to the way the Earth-Moon system orbits the Sun. ".
I don't understand, WikiPedia says:
" The Moon makes a complete orbit around the Earth
with respect to the fixed stars ( its sidereal period )
about once every 27.3 days. ".
-- http://WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Moon#Orbit_and_relationship_to_Earth
P.S. My handle is " Jeff?Relf ", not " Jeff?Relf ",
please turn-on your 8-bit characters and Unicode.
Why don't you just use something that doesn't require "special" character
recognition? My email reader shows a question mark as well. And no, I'm
not turning on some special Unicode just for you!
--
Zyp |
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