On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:36:38 -0400 Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
| Victor Roberts wrote:
|> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:31:59 -0400, "Bob"
|> <bobsjunkmail@bellsouth.net> wrote:
|
|>> <mroberds@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
|>> news:eNgIj.101901$Ft5.35182@newsfe15.lga...
|>>> Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
|>>>> Also, when CFLs fail - what happens?
|>>> All of the ones I have had that died of natural causes, mostly GE and
|>>> Philips lamps, just didn't light up one day when switched on. One of
|>>> them made a popping noise when switched on, but that's about it. I've
|>>> also had a few that were murdered by having the glass broken, but there
|>>> I just got a loud pop (the same one you get when you break any evacuated
|>>> bulb) and then nothing.
|>> Speaking of the GE dimmable.... I bought three of them to put in a ceiling
|>> fan. I am not impressed. You need to turn the dimmer almost all the way up
|>> to get them to light. Then, even after a reasonable warm up, when you turn
|>> the brightness down on them with the dimmer, you get to about half
|>> brightness - dimmer about at 1/4 - and they start flashing like disco
|>> lights. The technology is not quite ready for prime time.
|
|
|> The problem is the interaction of the phase controlled
|> dimmer and the lap ballast. Dimmable CFLs with on-board
|> dimming controls work just fine. I personally think we need
|> to stop trying to use phase control dimmers with CFLs.
|
|
|
| OK... what is a phase controlled dimmer? Is every switch dimmer a
| phase controlled dimmer?

I've yet to see a wall switch dimmer that says it is able to dim CFLs,
even if just the special class of CFLs known as dimmable.

My understanding of the dimmers in most common use is they clip the AC
waveform in time to limit the average power over time (of a cycle).

Variable transformers could be used, but they are expensive, bulky, and
perhaps less efficient. Still, I wonder if CFLs would dim better with
these than the other types of dimmers.

Personally, I'm holding out for improvements in LED lighting. LEDs can
be switched on and off at much faster rates to effect dimming, or they
can be selectively turned on and off (to light a room you need many of
them, so just turn some off for less light). But this is not likely to
be of any benefit where the need is to replace an incandescent bulb in
an existing incandescent (Edison base) fixture with something that can
be dimmed by controlling the mains voltage AC supply to it.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:36:38 -0400 Justin
Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
| Victor Roberts wrote:
|> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:31:59 -0400, "Bob"
|> <bobsjunkmail@bellsouth.net> wrote:
|> |>> <mroberds@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message |
news:eNgIj.101901$Ft5.35182@newsfe15.lga...
|>>> Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
|>>>> Also, when CFLs fail - what happens?
|>>> All of the ones I have had that died of natural causes, mostly GE
and
|>>> Philips lamps, just didn't light up one day when switched on.
One of
|>>> them made a popping noise when switched on, but that's about it.
I've
|>>> also had a few that were murdered by having the glass broken, but
there
|>>> I just got a loud pop (the same one you get when you break any
evacuated
|>>> bulb) and then nothing.
|>> Speaking of the GE dimmable.... I bought three of them to put in a
ceiling |>> fan. I am not impressed. You need to turn the dimmer
almost all the way up |>> to get them to light. Then, even after a
reasonable warm up, when you turn |>> the brightness down on them with
the dimmer, you get to about half |>> brightness - dimmer about at 1/4
- and they start flashing like disco |>> lights. The technology is not
quite ready for prime time. |
|> |> The problem is the interaction of the phase controlled
|> dimmer and the lap ballast. Dimmable CFLs with on-board
|> dimming controls work just fine. I personally think we need
|> to stop trying to use phase control dimmers with CFLs. |> | | |
OK... what is a phase controlled dimmer? Is every switch dimmer a |
phase controlled dimmer?

I've yet to see a wall switch dimmer that says it is able to dim CFLs,
even if just the special class of CFLs known as dimmable.

My understanding of the dimmers in most common use is they clip the AC
waveform in time to limit the average power over time (of a cycle).

Variable transformers could be used, but they are expensive, bulky, and
perhaps less efficient. Still, I wonder if CFLs would dim better with
these than the other types of dimmers.

Personally, I'm holding out for improvements in LED lighting. LEDs can
be switched on and off at much faster rates to effect dimming, or they
can be selectively turned on and off (to light a room you need many of
them, so just turn some off for less light). But this is not likely to
be of any benefit where the need is to replace an incandescent bulb in
an existing incandescent (Edison base) fixture with something that can
be dimmed by controlling the mains voltage AC supply to it.


I tried a CFL W30 from Wal-mart... two words can describe it. Horse
and shit.
and yes they dim those lights often enough because they're near the TV
and one can get a glare.
I guess I'll go Halogen.

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:01:45 -0400 Victor Roberts <xxx@lighting-research.com> wrote:

|>Personally, I'm holding out for improvements in LED lighting. LEDs can
|>be switched on and off at much faster rates to effect dimming, or they
|>can be selectively turned on and off (to light a room you need many of
|>them, so just turn some off for less light). But this is not likely to
|>be of any benefit where the need is to replace an incandescent bulb in
|>an existing incandescent (Edison base) fixture with something that can
|>be dimmed by controlling the mains voltage AC supply to it.
|
| Correct. Since LED replacement lamps will use an electronic
| driver, they will have the same problems with phase control
| dimmers that we now see with CFL replacement lamps.

So maybe what we need is "remote control" dimming, which is handled by the
light electronics directly, and fed to those electronics by various means
such as IR remotes, RF, X10, etc.

Just on the subject of dimming in general... be it incandescent or
fluorescent, how many of us dim one or more lamps on a regular basis?
After spending a small fortune on dimmable electronic ballasts and
related hardware in my previous home, I discovered (a little late)
that I only operate my lighting in one of two states: "full power" and
"off".

With few exceptions, I'm much happier with multiple switching and
multiple layers of light that can be added or removed as desired,
without having to worry about colour shift/distortion and loss of
efficacy. Dimming strikes me as a fundamentally flawed proposition;
in effect, a rough handed attempt to make one size fit all.

In theory they sound great, but I really question their usefulness.

Cheers,
Paul

Justin wrote:
phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:36:38 -0400 Justin
Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
| Victor Roberts wrote:
|> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:31:59 -0400, "Bob"
|> <bobsjunkmail@bellsouth.net> wrote:
|> |>> <mroberds@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message |
news:eNgIj.101901$Ft5.35182@newsfe15.lga...
|>>> Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
|>>>> Also, when CFLs fail - what happens?
|>>> All of the ones I have had that died of natural causes, mostly GE
and
|>>> Philips lamps, just didn't light up one day when switched on.
One of
|>>> them made a popping noise when switched on, but that's about it.
I've
|>>> also had a few that were murdered by having the glass broken, but
there
|>>> I just got a loud pop (the same one you get when you break any
evacuated
|>>> bulb) and then nothing.
|>> Speaking of the GE dimmable.... I bought three of them to put in a
ceiling |>> fan. I am not impressed. You need to turn the dimmer
almost all the way up |>> to get them to light. Then, even after a
reasonable warm up, when you turn |>> the brightness down on them with
the dimmer, you get to about half |>> brightness - dimmer about at 1/4
- and they start flashing like disco |>> lights. The technology is not
quite ready for prime time. |
|> |> The problem is the interaction of the phase controlled
|> dimmer and the lap ballast. Dimmable CFLs with on-board
|> dimming controls work just fine. I personally think we need
|> to stop trying to use phase control dimmers with CFLs. |> | | |
OK... what is a phase controlled dimmer? Is every switch dimmer a |
phase controlled dimmer?

I've yet to see a wall switch dimmer that says it is able to dim CFLs,
even if just the special class of CFLs known as dimmable.

My understanding of the dimmers in most common use is they clip the AC
waveform in time to limit the average power over time (of a cycle).

Variable transformers could be used, but they are expensive, bulky, and
perhaps less efficient. Still, I wonder if CFLs would dim better with
these than the other types of dimmers.

Personally, I'm holding out for improvements in LED lighting. LEDs can
be switched on and off at much faster rates to effect dimming, or they
can be selectively turned on and off (to light a room you need many of
them, so just turn some off for less light). But this is not likely to
be of any benefit where the need is to replace an incandescent bulb in
an existing incandescent (Edison base) fixture with something that can
be dimmed by controlling the mains voltage AC supply to it.


I tried a CFL W30 from Wal-mart... two words can describe it. Horse
and shit.
and yes they dim those lights often enough because they're near the TV
and one can get a glare.
I guess I'll go Halogen.

I think this goes back to what Paul said earlier, the need to dim could
be a result of poor lighting design in a given room.

To me, the ideal room ought to have both open decorative lights and
recessed lights, and separate light switches should control both.

Another thing I just thought of, I have seen 3-way CFLs intended for
table lamps and such. How come I have never seen any 3-way light
fixtures? To me that could be a form of dimming.

I think this goes back to what Paul said earlier, the need to dim could
be a result of poor lighting design in a given room.

To me, the ideal room ought to have both open decorative lights and
recessed lights, and separate light switches should control both.

you are absolutely correct Vic, and furthermore, the public erroneously
believes that there is a direct and proportional electrical savings when
dimming. Actually the amount of electricity consumed is less when dimmed,
but certainly not proportionally equal. And in the case of LED products,
this proves even more true.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:03:30 -0400 Justin <Justin@nobecauseihatespam.net
wrote:

| Here I am in 120v/60hz land looking for dimmable CFLs. I already have
| the CFL dlay problem that annoys my family solved.
| Now I'm looking for a CFL that is dimmable and available at Home Depot
, | Lowes or some other store that is common in the US.
| | Also, when CFLs fail - what happens? Can they catch fire? I know of
a | neighbor who had one where the base died and basically melted. I had
a | similar failure when I used a normal spiral outside and the bugs
piled | up insite the spiral and the thing heated up like a toaster oven
and | POOF! There's a burned hole out the side. Now I use an outdoor
unit | that is fully enclosed.

That depends one what kind of failure. Incandescent bulbs would normally
just burn out the filament with a breakage in the filament somewhere.

But I have seen some interesting failures of incandescent bulbs.

In one case, I suspect one of 3 in a fixture burned out, and the surge of
the fault current through the arc being extinguished blew out the others.
All three bulbs suffered various severe damage, including burn holes in
the base, destruction of the filament, and cracking of the glass stem in
one of them. They also had a lot of blackening inside the bulbs, but I
don't know if that pre-existed, or not.

My big worries with CFs are the mercury release risk, and the chance that
cheap electronics could cause a short circuit fault on failure.

Speaking of ovens, I also worry someone will put one inside an oven as a
replacement for a burned out oven light. They used to have standard base
sockets inside (maybe they still do ... I haven't checked in a couple of
decades).

As for dimmable lights, I'd focus on trying to green-ize as many of the
lights that don't need dimming, first, and for now put lower wattage in
the ones that do. Also, if doing wiring to fixtures, make as many of
them independently switchable as possible, so you can turn on the minimum
needed. For now I have CFs on outside lights. I don't like the light
for kitchen duty (I have both Fs and Is in the kitchen, but the Is give
a better quality of light, which I need in the kitchen when cooking or
cleaning).


The reason I want to find a dimmable set of CFLs is not energy
efficiency... but PURE laziness. My parents house has a high ceiling
with two recessed dimmable fixtures. They were ahead of their time in
1973, as modern houses are built exactly like this. The problem is, the
lights are 30 feet up, and when one blows my parents call my sorry ass
over for dinner... and pull an "oh yeah there's the light 30 feet up" you
know the story.
So, I want to swap those out with long lasting dimmable CFLs and I never
shop at the Dollar store. For anything. Only once did I go in there in
college to buy some air fresher because I was farting massively. But
that's another story.

phil-news-nos...@ipal.net wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:03:30 -0400 Justin
Jus...@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:

| Here I am in 120v/60hz land looking for dimmable CFLs. I already have
| the CFL dlay problem that annoys my family solved.
| Now I'm looking for a CFL that is dimmable and available at Home Depot
,
| Lowes or some other store that is common in the US.
|
| Also, when CFLs fail - what happens? Can they catch fire? I know of a
| neighbor who had one where the base died and basically melted. I had a
| similar failure when I used a normal spiral outside and the bugs piled
| up insite the spiral and the thing heated up like a toaster oven and
| POOF! There's a burned hole out the side. Now I use an outdoor unit
| that is fully enclosed.

That depends one what kind of failure. Incandescent bulbs would normally
just burn out the filament with a breakage in the filament somewhere.

But I have seen some interesting failures of incandescent bulbs.

In one case, I suspect one of 3 in a fixture burned out, and the surge
of
the fault current through the arc being extinguished blew out the
others.
All three bulbs suffered various severe damage, including burn holes in
the base, destruction of the filament, and cracking of the glass stem in
one of them. They also had a lot of blackening inside the bulbs, but I
don't know if that pre-existed, or not.

My big worries with CFs are the mercury release risk, and the chance
that
cheap electronics could cause a short circuit fault on failure.

Speaking of ovens, I also worry someone will put one inside an oven as a
replacement for a burned out oven light. They used to have standard base
sockets inside (maybe they still do ... I haven't checked in a couple of
decades).

As for dimmable lights, I'd focus on trying to green-ize as many of the
lights that don't need dimming, first, and for now put lower wattage in
the ones that do. Also, if doing wiring to fixtures, make as many of
them independently switchable as possible, so you can turn on the
minimum
needed. For now I have CFs on outside lights. I don't like the light
for kitchen duty (I have both Fs and Is in the kitchen, but the Is give
a better quality of light, which I need in the kitchen when cooking or
cleaning).

The reason I want to find a dimmable set of CFLs is not energy
efficiency... but PURE laziness. My parents house has a high ceiling
with two recessed dimmable fixtures. They were ahead of their time in
1973, as modern houses are built exactly like this. The problem is, the
lights are 30 feet up, and when one blows my parents call my sorry ass
over for dinner... and pull an "oh yeah there's the light 30 feet up"
you know the story.
So, I want to swap those out with long lasting dimmable CFLs and I never
shop at the Dollar store. For anything. Only once did I go in there in
college to buy some air fresher because I was farting massively. But
that's another story.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -