Maria C. wrote:

Comment: When Brian and I got married (1969), I was allowed to have
the organist play "Here Comes the Bride," which was forbidden in most
Catholic churches (I think because the composer was a heretic or
something; someone here will know).

It's the Wedding March from Richard Wagner's opera Lohengrin. There's
nothing in the story of the opera to offend the RC church, and it
doesn't seem likely that the composer's antisemitism (expressed
nowhere in his compositions or his life -- the conductor who led most
of his performances at his home theater was Jewish, only in essays)
was a concern of the Church in those days. Maybe it's just that it was
from a secular source? Also, wasn't that the heyday of the invasion of
the folk guitar into the Mass?

Did you have the traditional Mendelssohn recessional? That's from his
Midsummer Night's Dream music.

When our daughter got married
(1999), the pastor, along with the musical director, refused to have
the song played.

Surely it can't have been more than not wanting to hear it for the
17,000th time.

My daughter didn't care, though, because she did not have
the same attachment to the song that I did. Whatever was played was
totally unmemorable, at least to me. Our daughter and s-i-l liked it,
though.
[...]

I've only been to one Catholic wedding. My main memory of it was how
boring it was, but that was because it went on for 3 hours. However,
whether this was an RC thing or an Italian thing, I don't know.

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 04:34:11 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in
news:01f3b0ce-554b-46ac-9ec3-16271e673c88@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com
in sci.lang,alt.usage.english:

On Apr 7, 12:11 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:31:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Jerry Friedman thanks Wikipedia for the links again.
Wikipedia misleads again.
No, the information is from the web pages of the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod and of the Roman Catholic Diocese of
San Diego.  And you've offered no reason to think that the
information is misleading.
Lohengrin and Parsifal both come from Medieval Christian
legends.
This is not in conflict with either part of the statement
that 'the Missouri Synod Lutherans discouraged it in the
19th century because of the pagan qualities of Wagner's
operas and because they were opposed to the theater then'.
What are the "pagan qualities" of Lohengrin?

There needn't be any -- from our point of view.  Actually,
there needn't be any even from theirs: it says 'the pagan
qualities of Wagner's operas', so perhaps the Ring cycle
contaminated the lot.

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Maria C. wrote:

Comment: When Brian and I got married (1969), I was allowed to have
the organist play "Here Comes the Bride," which was forbidden in
most Catholic churches (I think because the composer was a heretic
or something; someone here will know).

It's the Wedding March from Richard Wagner's opera Lohengrin. There's
nothing in the story of the opera to offend the RC church, and it
doesn't seem likely that the composer's antisemitism (expressed
nowhere in his compositions or his life -- the conductor who led most
of his performances at his home theater was Jewish, only in essays)
was a concern of the Church in those days. Maybe it's just that it
was from a secular source? Also, wasn't that the heyday of the
invasion of the folk guitar into the Mass?

Our church had a Guitar Mass every week, but I think that started
after we got married. It was still going on when we moved to another
parish in 1972. The "new" church also had Guitar Masses.

Did you have the traditional Mendelssohn recessional? That's from his
Midsummer Night's Dream music.

No, and I have no idea what we had as recessional music. That wasn't
as important to me as the processional.

"jerry_friedman@yahoo.com" <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:6a795467-3aed-4000-aca2-92819722974d@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com:

On Apr 6, 9:46 am, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
...
Comment: When Brian and I got married (1969), I was allowed to
have the organist play "Here Comes the Bride," which was forbidden
in most Catholic churches (I think because the composer was a
heretic or something; someone here will know).

A character in Robert Heinlein's /I Will Fear No Evil/ says it reminds
her of a cat sneaking up on a mouse. (As I recall.)

Yep. She also compares the Mendelssohn recessional to the triumphant
cackle of a hen that's just laid an egg.

On Apr 7, 12:11 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:31:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Jerry Friedman thanks Wikipedia for the links again.

Wikipedia misleads again.

No, the information is from the web pages of the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod and of the Roman Catholic Diocese of
San Diego.  And you've offered no reason to think that the
information is misleading.

Lohengrin and Parsifal both come from Medieval Christian
legends.

This is not in conflict with either part of the statement
that 'the Missouri Synod Lutherans discouraged it in the
19th century because of the pagan qualities of Wagner's
operas and because they were opposed to the theater then'.

What are the "pagan qualities" of Lohengrin?

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3928> says the Missouri
Synod Lutherans discouraged it in the 19th century because of the
pagan qualities of Wagner's operas and because they were opposed to
the theater then, and some may still follow that tradition. Other
Protestant churches may have similar beliefs. That article also says
there's much better music available.

On 07/04/08 01:46, Maria C. wrote:

Frankly, I think the music is much better in non-Catholic churches.
As a former Baptist, my taste in religious songs is more what one
thinks of as "gospel music." The music that the RC church has sounds
boring, and lacking in spirit. (I should go to the Catholic church
in Gatlinburg next time we're there to see what they do when it's
time to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord.)

For a real dirge, try the Anglicans. Worst music ever written.

Peter Moylan wrote:
On 07/04/08 01:46, Maria C. wrote:

Frankly, I think the music is much better in non-Catholic churches.
As a former Baptist, my taste in religious songs is more what one
thinks of as "gospel music." The music that the RC church has sounds
boring, and lacking in spirit. (I should go to the Catholic church
in Gatlinburg next time we're there to see what they do when it's
time to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord.)

For a real dirge, try the Anglicans. Worst music ever written.

WHAT?? Purcell, Tallis, (I nearly said "Byrd", but he was only an
honorary Anglican), Handel ... I'm stunned.

In message <65t8pgF2h7g6aU1@mid.individual.net
Robert <robban1@bigpond.com> wrote:
Maria C. wrote:

Frankly, I think the music is much better in non-Catholic churches. As a
former Baptist, my taste in religious songs is more what one thinks of
as "gospel music." The music that the RC church has sounds boring, and
lacking in spirit. (I should go to the Catholic church in Gatlinburg
next time we're there to see what they do when it's time to "make a
joyful noise unto the Lord.)

I've only been to one Catholic wedding. My main memory of it was how
boring it was, but that was because it went on for 3 hours. However,
whether this was an RC thing or an Italian thing, I don't know.

In my rather limited experience with RC weddings, the Italian variety is
very often combined with a full Mass. The non-Italian variety is generally
quite short, though not as short as many others. 20-30 minutes seems about
normal. I've been to weddings where the actual marriage service was less than
five minutes. I have no recollection of my own, other than it was between five
and fifty-five hundred minutes in length. Not that I could swear to that in
court, mind, but I'm fairly certain of the range.

On Apr 7, 12:46 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
Barbara Bailey filted:





"jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:6a795467-3aed-4000-aca2-92819722974d@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com:

On Apr 6, 9:46 am, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
...
Comment: When Brian and I got married (1969), I was allowed to
have the organist play "Here Comes the Bride," which was forbidden
in most Catholic churches (I think because the composer was a
heretic or something; someone here will know).

A character in Robert Heinlein's /I Will Fear No Evil/ says it reminds
her of a cat sneaking up on a mouse. (As I recall.)

Yep. She also compares the Mendelssohn recessional to the triumphant
cackle of a hen that's just laid an egg.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten.

That's a pretty good indication that Heinlein himself felt the same way....r

Ooh. I tried saying something like that in rasfw, and you should have
seen what happened. Though I was talking about racism (by a certain
definition) rather than musical taste. I did learn the word
"apodeictic", at least.

Ooh. �I tried saying something like that in rasfw, and you should have
seen what happened. �Though I was talking about racism (by a certain
definition) rather than musical taste. �I did learn the word
"apodeictic", at least.

(ObReturnToWeddingMarches: I'd let them play heavy metal if it would keep just
one bride from programming the Pachelbel Canon in D and thinking she's the first

Peter Moylan wrote:
On 07/04/08 01:46, Maria C. wrote:

Frankly, I think the music is much better in non-Catholic churches.
As a former Baptist, my taste in religious songs is more what one
thinks of as "gospel music." The music that the RC church has sounds
boring, and lacking in spirit. (I should go to the Catholic church
in Gatlinburg next time we're there to see what they do when it's
time to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord.)

For a real dirge, try the Anglicans. Worst music ever written.

WHAT?? Purcell, Tallis, (I nearly said "Byrd", but he was only an
honorary Anglican), Handel ... I'm stunned. The fluid line and velvety
texture of the Psalms ... The genitive plurals rolling round the
cathedral vaulting ... It's the /music/ that makes it hardest for an
Anglican to give it all up ... Hell, even the very hymn-book was edited
by Vaughan Williams.

I'd better qualify the above by saying that my experience is confined to

On Apr 7, 10:06?pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I did learn the word "apodeictic", at least.

I knew "deictic", but had to check that one. Interestingly (to me,
though not necessarily to normal humans), OED gives precedence to
the spelling "apodictic": since the Greek root verb is "deignumi",
I find that a little barbarous. Possibly even barbaric.