Who knows ?

http://starbulletin.com/2008/03/18/news/story03.html

On Mar 18, 2:38 pm, John Szalay <john.sza...@pullmyfinger.att.net
wrote:

Who knows ?

http://starbulletin.com/2008/03/18/news/story03.html

God.

And maybe me?

On Mar 19, 9:41 am, Weatherlawyer <Weatherlaw...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:38 pm, John Szalay <john.sza...@pullmyfinger.att.net
wrote:

Who knows ?

http://starbulletin.com/2008/03/18/news/story03.html

God.

And maybe me?

Nothing much on that link but here is a discussion that might interest
you:

"Isn't there some data somewhere that indicates that subterranean
events of all sorts seem to be linked to microbial activity? It is
rewriting the text books again apparently. I recall a TV programme
showing that the caverns in a desert somewhere have probably been
excavated by them as there is little chance it was caused by water
eroding it.

It's also more than likely true that the volcanic activity on earth is
liable to be caused by microbes. Just a wild guess of course. Why not
though? Suppose there are some particularly attracted to suphur or
it's ores.

It might even be a requirement for volcanoes as far as we know.
There is precious little actually known that isn't blind guesswork and
stuff based on a network of unproven theories. "

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.geo.earthquakes/browse_frm/thread/...

Bear in mind that conditions hostile to the creatures god gave man
control over does not necessarily apply to those he didn't.

Perhaps a holy fart from God is responsible for all EQs in the entire
Western area of the USA.

Meanwhile back under the ranch: Lechuguilla cave. Part of the BBC
series Planet Earth, unfortunately faced or voiced by their High
Priest of Blind Iknow David Attenborough.

However, despite the obvious attractions to us devout-ees of the
Omniscient, there is much to learn in the series, even for the most
intractable of fools:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/planetearth/prog_summary.shtml
Episode 4

If ever there were a subject in science that confounds the atheist it
is their problem of Anthropomorphism. And nowhere in science is this
more confounding to them than in caves.

However perhaps the perdition of fools -and any attempt to save them,
is best left to another thread. And better men than I.

One particular error or unexplained phenomenon was the construction of
the cave known as Lechuguilla. The narrator avers it is due to
Sulphuric Acid. This after pointing out the existence of Extremophile
Bacteria.

But since he never went into any details -there types never do, I
can't counter anything he said.

Some words to look up:Cenote, Yucatan; sea-caves (since the self
healing stone, Calcium Carbonate, is alleged to have formed by the
dissolution of that stone in fresh water how are these formed?)

Troglobites: Angel fish; Texas Cave Salamanders; Belesian White
Crabs; > Belezian?
From Belize.

One other cave was Via Luth? in Mexico. Not sure of the spelling. The
BBC could do a lot more in it's science programmes than it does.

When you consider the efforts the cameramen make, would it kill them
to add subtitles?

My point of view is that the presence of hydrogen sulphide seems to be
required as well as that of these specialist bacteria. Also I fail to
see how the gas is converted to sulphuric acid all the while not just
making these caverns but creating miles and miles of crystal grottoes
such as the Chandelier Ballroom.

Still and all, nothing to do with volcanoes per-se.
Or not, as the case might be.
Not really, unless you go back far enough that vulcanism is the origianl

In article <ymiskxwmcom.fsf@blackcat.isi.edu>,
Thomas A. Russ <tar@sevak.isi.edu> wrote:

"Troglobites"?

The snack food of cave men.

Made from real caves!

Can't be. The cave is what isn't there.

Big Island photographer Charlene Meyers must have been one of the last
people to see the glowing red vent inside Halemaumau Crater before the
unusual feature blew itself apart early Wednesday morning.

Arriving at the Jaggar Museum viewing site at about 9:30 p.m. Tuesday,
Meyers found a moment when rain showers did not obstruct the view, a
nearly full moon lit the ground and sulfur dioxide steam plume, and a
72-second exposure revealed the Southern Cross hanging just to the right
of the blazing, bright red spot.

About five hours later, at 2:58 a.m. Wednesday, the red spot blew up,
throwing debris over a 75-acre area.

http://starbulletin.com/2008/03/21/news/story02.html

On Apr 7, 7:24 pm, Jo Schaper <jo345sch765a...@s9ocket.net> wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:

That's the trouble with the sulphur compounds. It is so easy to fall
into the trap of using the suffix "ic" in conjunction with it. Sulphur
does not easily form sulphuric acid in air. Few products of sulphur
are sulphuric.

My point of view is that the presence of hydrogen sulphide seems to be
required as well as that of these specialist bacteria. Also I fail to
see how the gas is converted to sulphuric acid all the while not just
making these caverns but creating miles and miles of crystal grottoes
such as the Chandelier Ballroom.
SO2+ OH$B!&(B $B"*(B HOSO2$B!&(B

which is followed by:

HOSO2$B!&(B + O2 $B"*(B HO2$B!&(B + SO3

In the presence of water sulfur trioxide (SO3) is converted rapidly to
sulfuric acid:

SO3(g) + H2O(l) $B"*(B H2SO4(l)

Whether or not it is possible I can't say. What is needed is a rich
form or source of sulphur and enough time for the various flora and
fauna to have at it. Meanwhile the various chemicals would not obtain
access to depth inside limestone unless there was some tectonic force
creating channels.

The process of fresh water though limestone is an healing of crevasses
etc. Sea water on the other hand will do nothing so I hear. It will
concrete with the presence of iron though.

So again no marks for their chemistry.

In the caves, you don't need pure sulfuric acid. The corrosivity of SO3
+ H20 is enough. (Just like you don't need pure carbonic acid in
conventional cave and speleothem formation/deposition.

Still and all, nothing to do with volcanoes per-se.
Or not, as the case might be.
Not really, unless you go back far enough that vulcanism is the origianl
source of the sulfur containing rocks taken up by plants, and converted
to high S hydrocarbons.

That chemistry isn't very good in the circumstances.

Besides which calcium is pretty nearly unreactive to it.

The point I was making was that the producers allowed slipshod
journalism (which is what the fool has made a rich living on)
unchallenged. Such has been the product of BBC Bristol for far too
long.

On Mar 21, 3:05 pm, John Szalay <john.sza...@pullmyfinger.att.net
wrote:

Big Island photographer Charlene Meyers must have been one of the last
people to see the glowing red vent inside Halemaumau Crater before the
unusual feature blew itself apart early Wednesday morning.

Arriving at the Jaggar Museum viewing site at about 9:30 p.m. Tuesday,
Meyers found a moment when rain showers did not obstruct the view, a
nearly full moon lit the ground and sulfur dioxide steam plume, and a
72-second exposure revealed the Southern Cross hanging just to the right
of the blazing, bright red spot.

About five hours later, at 2:58 a.m. Wednesday, the red spot blew up,
throwing debris over a 75-acre area.

http://starbulletin.com/2008/03/21/news/story02.html

That would have been the 18th the Tuesday prior to that Friday on the
21st March 2008.

Meanwhile back under the ranch: Lechuguilla cave. Part of the BBC
series Planet Earth, unfortunately faced or voiced by their High
Priest of Blind Iknow David Attenborough.

However, despite the obvious attractions to us devout-ees of the
Omniscient, there is much to learn in the series, even for the most
intractable of fools:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/planetearth/prog_summary.shtml
Episode 4

If ever there were a subject in science that confounds the atheist it
is their problem of Anthropomorphism. And nowhere in science is this
more confounding to them than in caves.

However perhaps the perdition of fools -and any attempt to save them,
is best left to another thread. And better men than I.

One particular error or unexplained phenomenon was the construction of
the cave known as Lechuguilla. The narrator avers it is due to
Sulphuric Acid. This after pointing out the existence of Extremophile
Bacteria.

But since he never went into any details -there types never do, I
can't counter anything he said.

Some words to look up:Cenote, Yucatan; sea-caves (since the self
healing stone, Calcium Carbonate, is alleged to have formed by the
dissolution of that stone in fresh water how are these formed?)

Troglobites: Angel fish; Texas Cave Salamanders; Belesian White
Crabs;
Belezian? Cave Mollys; Snotites and other Extremophites.

One other cave was Via Luth? in Mexico. Not sure of the spelling. The
BBC could do a lot more in it's science programmes than it does.

When you consider the efforts the cameramen make, would it kill them
to add subtitles?

My point of view is that the presence of hydrogen sulphide seems to be
required as well as that of these specialist bacteria. Also I fail to
see how the gas is converted to sulphuric acid all the while not just
making these caverns but creating miles and miles of crystal grottoes
such as the Chandelier Ballroom.

Still and all, nothing to do with volcanoes per-se.
Or not, as the case might be.

"Troglobites"?

"Mike Williams" <miklwlms@pacbell.net> writes:

"Troglobites"?

The snack food of cave men.

--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute

"Troglobites"?

The snack food of cave men.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Meanwhile back under the ranch: Lechuguilla cave. Part of the BBC
series Planet Earth, unfortunately faced or voiced by their High
Priest of Blind Iknow David Attenborough.

However, despite the obvious attractions to us devout-ees of the
Omniscient, there is much to learn in the series, even for the most
intractable of fools:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/planetearth/prog_summary.s...
Episode 4

If ever there were a subject in science that confounds the atheist it
is their problem of Anthropomorphism. And nowhere in science is this
more confounding to them than in caves.

However perhaps the perdition of fools -and any attempt to save them,
is best left to another thread. And better men than I.

One particular error or unexplained phenomenon was the construction of
the cave known as Lechuguilla. The narrator avers it is due to
Sulphuric Acid. This after pointing out the existence of Extremophile
Bacteria.

But since he never went into any details -there types never do, I
can't counter anything he said.

The formation of Lechuguilla, Carlsbad, and other caves of the Guadalupe
Mountains by the action of sulfuric acid (both gaseous and in the
groundwater (sulfur is associated with extensive natural gas and oil
wells in the region) on calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate, resulting
in both calcite and gypsum speleothems, is old news, first promulgated
by Dr. Carol Hill, and other scientists from New Mexico Tech around
1985. There are some very odd gypsum speleothems in these caves which
appear to have been formed by acidic air, as well usual groundwater
processes.

Some words to look up:Cenote, Yucatan; sea-caves (since the self
healing stone, Calcium Carbonate, is alleged to have formed by the
dissolution of that stone in fresh water how are these formed?)

Huh? Cenotes are water-filled coastal karst sinkholes. Limestone is
deposited in salt water, dissolved by fresh, and the process is
particularly corrosive along water-mixing zones. Calcite is also
deposited in shallow reef structures (Google coral reefs/Bahamas)

Troglobites: Angel fish; Texas Cave Salamanders; Belesian White
Crabs; > Belezian?

From Belize.

Cave Mollys;
Also known as cave tetra. A Mexican variety is pretty neat, because they
have populations of the same species (can interbreed) all the way from
epigean fish to blind, colorless cave-obligate types.

Snotites

are stringy cave speleothems, something like sulfuric?? based moonmilk
with a high content of sulfur-eating bacteria. They are colonies, and
endemic to Cueva Villa Luz.

Extremophiles. Creatures which live under extreme heat/cold acid/alkali
conditions. Like the microbes in the Yellowstone hot springs, and stuff
found under Antarctic ice. Extremophiles are more than just bats and
salamanders-- they are obligated to live under extreme conditions.

One other cave was Via Luth? in Mexico. Not sure of the spelling. The
BBC could do a lot more in it's science programmes than it does.

Cueva de Villa Luz.

When you consider the efforts the cameramen make, would it kill them
to add subtitles?

No, but too much breathing of the hydrogen sulfide gas in the cave
might. Interestingly, there is a fish run there, the locals have been
going in the cave to catch fish sans masks for years, but the scientists
take no such risks.

My point of view is that the presence of hydrogen sulphide seems to be
required as well as that of these specialist bacteria. Also I fail to
see how the gas is converted to sulphuric acid all the while not just
making these caverns but creating miles and miles of crystal grottoes
such as the Chandelier Ballroom.

SO2+ OH$B!&(B $B"*(B HOSO2$B!&(B

which is followed by:

HOSO2$B!&(B + O2 $B"*(B HO2$B!&(B + SO3

In the presence of water sulfur trioxide (SO3) is converted rapidly to
sulfuric acid:

SO3(g) + H2O(l) $B"*(B H2SO4(l)

In the caves, you don't need pure sulfuric acid. The corrosivity of SO3
+ H20 is enough. (Just like you don't need pure carbonic acid in
conventional cave and speleothem formation/deposition.

Still and all, nothing to do with volcanoes per-se.
Or not, as the case might be.

Not really, unless you go back far enough that vulcanism is the origianl
source of the sulfur containing rocks taken up by plants, and converted
to high S hydrocarbons.