Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Apr 7, 7:24 pm, Jo Schaper <jo345sch765a...@s9ocket.net> wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:



That's the trouble with the sulphur compounds. It is so easy to fall
into the trap of using the suffix "ic" in conjunction with it. Sulphur
does not easily form sulphuric acid in air. Few products of sulphur
are sulphuric.

Sulphuric isn't being used in a strict chemical sense, here but rather
in the "sulfur oxide related" sense. The whole suite of SO- radicals are
so commonly called in geology; the same as the entire suite of CO, CO2,
CO3 radicals are called "carbonic."

Both families of radicals in aqueous solution are just that; not
strictly the acid that one finds in a jar in the lab. I don't know how
much of that is known to the viewing public, but there are entire books
written on nothing but carbonate and sulphate geochemistry-- hardly
explainable to high schoolers in chem class, much less to inebriated
telly viewers.

My point of view is that the presence of hydrogen sulphide seems to be
required as well as that of these specialist bacteria. Also I fail to
see how the gas is converted to sulphuric acid all the while not just
making these caverns but creating miles and miles of crystal grottoes
such as the Chandelier Ballroom.
SO2+ OH? ? HOSO2?

which is followed by:

HOSO2? + O2 ? HO2? + SO3

In the presence of water sulfur trioxide (SO3) is converted rapidly to
sulfuric acid:

SO3(g) + H2O(l) ? H2SO4(l)

Whether or not it is possible I can't say. What is needed is a rich
form or source of sulphur and enough time for the various flora and
fauna to have at it. Meanwhile the various chemicals would not obtain
access to depth inside limestone unless there was some tectonic force
creating channels.

Only ultimately do you need tectonism. There is plenty of sulfur already
in rocks-- iron and other metallic sulfides, gypsum deposited as
seawater evaporites above limestone, in coal and oil -- the sulfur
source is usually sedimentary, though it can come from igneous rocks or
even fumaroles. I don't think anyone has made any case for active
vulcanism in the Guads, New Mexico, or near Villa Luz.

The process of fresh water though limestone is an healing of crevasses
etc. Sea water on the other hand will do nothing so I hear. It will
concrete with the presence of iron though.

You hear incorrectly. Fresh water through limestone is either corrosive
or deposits calcite, aragonite and travertine, depending upon the amount
of acidity in the water. The two most common acidic radical groups are
excess H+, associated with carbonates and sulfates. Hence the 'caves are
formed by carbonic or sulfuric acid'; since, in aqueous solution, these
radicals do act as weak acids on the limestone and gypsum.

You can carve caves with fresh water, or you can fill them up with
mineralization, or you can do both at the same time, in different parts
of the same cave, depending up on the microchemistry and kinetics of the
water at each location. Pretty amazing, huh?

Caves are also formed by mechanical abrasion of flowing water plus
corrosion-- called corrasion. I'm not that familiar with sea cave
formation-- generally, sea water is fairly neutral in pH, (yes there are
exceptions) and sea cave formation is considered mostly mechanical,
though chemistry does play some part in rotting the rock.

So again no marks for their chemistry.

In the caves, you don't need pure sulfuric acid. The corrosivity of SO3
+ H20 is enough. (Just like you don't need pure carbonic acid in
conventional cave and speleothem formation/deposition.

Still and all, nothing to do with volcanoes per-se.
Or not, as the case might be.
Not really, unless you go back far enough that vulcanism is the origianl
source of the sulfur containing rocks taken up by plants, and converted
to high S hydrocarbons.

That chemistry isn't very good in the circumstances.

Besides which calcium is pretty nearly unreactive to it.

Calcium really just gets moved around in limestone/gypsum equations. It
is the carbonate or sulfate which reacts to the aqueous acids.

The point I was making was that the producers allowed slipshod
journalism (which is what the fool has made a rich living on)
unchallenged. Such has been the product of BBC Bristol for far too
long.

I don't get my science from the BBC. But I cut them some slack for even
trying. Hey, all we have here is PBS and Beekman's World. Even all our
so-called forensic CSI programs are pretty fake science. And we don't
even want to start on major movies. I really don't think science
translates that well to video, except for short clips showing some
process in action. A video of a lava flow, or a volcano exploding or
the earth breaking open in an earthquake is impressive.

Weatherlawyerwrote:

That's the trouble with the sulphur compounds. It is so easy to fall
into the trap of using the suffix "ic" in conjunction with it. Sulphur
does not easily form sulphuric acid in air. Few products of sulphur
are sulphuric.

Sulphuric isn't being used in a strict chemical sense, here but rather
in the "sulfur oxide related" sense. The whole suite of SO- radicals are
so commonly called in geology; the same as the entire suite of CO, CO2,
CO3 radicals are called "carbonic."

Both families of radicals in aqueous solution are just that; not
strictly the acid that one finds in a jar in the lab. I don't know how
much of that is known to the viewing public, but there are entire books
written on nothing but carbonate and sulphate geochemistry-- hardly
explainable to high schoolers in chem class, much less to inebriated
telly viewers.

ellis@no.spam wrote:
In article <ymiskxwmcom.fsf@blackcat.isi.edu>,
Thomas A. Russ <tar@sevak.isi.edu> wrote:

"Troglobites"?

The snack food of cave men.

Made from real caves!

Can't be. The cave is what isn't there.

Limestone is
deposited in salt water, dissolved by fresh, and the process is
particularly corrosive along water-mixing zones.

"Enchyaline zones", if I remember the chemistry lessons from the

seawater evaporites above limestone, in coal and oil -- the sulfur
source is usually sedimentary, though it can come from igneous rocks or
even fumaroles. I don't think anyone has made any case for active
vulcanism in the Guads, New Mexico, or near Villa Luz.

What happens when the copper sulfides and water gets exposed to free
O2? There is an ex-mine copper mine site in northern california
produces sulfuric acid in the water run off.

The industrial world is full of examples of highly acid water

In article <V6mdnTkWnb_hJWbanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@socketinternetservices>,Jo Schaper wrote:
Limestone is
deposited in salt water, dissolved by fresh, and the process is
particularly corrosive along water-mixing zones.

"Enchyaline zones", if I remember the chemistry lessons from the
Blue Holes correctly.
The limestone island I was working on in Tanzania had a central
karstic depression - made me think there was a possibility of an East
African set of Blue Holes. When flying back up the coast to Dar, it
didn't take too much persuasion to get the pilot to buzz a number of
the islands in the area for a look-see. No clear signs of open Blue
Holes, but plenty of karst processes going on. Come back in a few
millennia.