This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is well known and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.

To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.

The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

Rudolf Drabek wrote:
This is no joke, I ask for help.

Come on! Asking for "help" on the Internet is automatically a joke!

Maxwell's theory is well known and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.

So, isn't that enough for you? Today physicists and other scientists
and engineers are completely satisfied to have a mathematical theory.
The important issue is how advanced are the mathematical principles
you are using. The more complex and the more "advanced", obviously the
more you know about science!

To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

And apparently neither has anyone else...at least since Maxwell did
it. But then his idea was that waves were carried by the luminiferous
aether.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.

Yes.

The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

:We doan need no stinkin' propagating charges!
but energy is transferred with nothing?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

Well, OK, if you insist, but you won't like it. In order for Maxwell's
equations to predict the existence of electromagnetic waves he had to
add an ad hoc term known as "displacement current" This fictitious
term boldly predicts that a changing electric field creates a magnetic
field. We already know a changing magnetic field (sort of) creates an
electric field by the process known as "induction". However, you
should note that the induced electric field is NOT the same field as
: that produced by static charges. Anyway, the whole mathematical
:structure more or less "works" and more or less predicts
: electromagnetic phenomena.
I know it works with a sort of "other el. field"

: But there remain problems. It turns out that "displacement currents"
: actually don't exist. If you put a capacitor into a (black) box and
: ramp a current into it you do NOT find a magnetic field about the box
: equivalent to if the box just held a straight wire. It seems nobody
: has ever been able to measure this. Oops!

So what gives? Well current thinking (and hand waving) is sort of
along the lines that a "displacement current" is just sort of a
property of empty space! In other words we KNOW that EM waves exist so
SOMETHING must be going on to propagate those waves. Einstein noted
that "empty" space isn't "void" but must have properties. And it seems
logical therefore that these properties of space give it luminiferous
properties. Einstein noted that in this sense the properties of space
are "Aether". Hence we have come full circle to the propagation of EM
waves being a property of the Aether of space. And the real kick in
the butt is that in truth nobody has actually taken time to properly
investigate whether the mathematical waves of Maxwell's ad hoc
assumption are identical to real waves produced in real space. Clearly
they are close to it, but exactly the same? Who knows?

However, the REAL problems with Maxwellian waves have to do with
quantum mechanics. These data seem to show that classical waves in a
medium (even one as ideal as aether) don't really exist. There are
particle attributes and truncations in space (never mind the jibber
jabber here about "probability waves" extending to infinity) that
clearly have no thinking "model" and upset the wave theory apple cart.
Probably the answer is that space itself is quantized and has the
:properties of a field, but that is another topic for another time.
Agreed!

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, Rudolf Drabek wrote:
Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

Let me give you two different "pictures" of why there are EM waves.

Suppose that you suddenly turn a current on, for example, turn on an
electromagnet. You create a magnetic field. This magnetic field can exert
a force on a distant magnet, and can do work on - give it energy.
Therefore, EM fields can carry energy from one place to another.

Initially, there is no magnetic field due to the electromagnet (ie when
the current is off). After it is turned on, there is a magnetic field. If
you're a long way away from the electromagnet, does the magnetic field
where you are change instantly, or does it take time to change? How
quickly does the change spread outwards from the electromagnet?

If the change is instant, then there are no EM waves. If the change
travels at a constant speed (in vacuum), then you have EM waves.

Note that the electromagnet remains the same mass, and the distant magnet
the electromagnet's field does work on remains the same mass. The
transport of energy by the EM field doesn't involve the transport of mass.

Picture 1:

The fastest speed you can move energy at is c, the speed of light in free
space. If the thing carrying the energy has no mass, it will move at this
speed. Thus, EM fields can only carry energy at c, and this energy will be
carried by EM waves moving at c.

Picture 2:

Things that carry energy (here, the distant magnet can gain kinetic
energy) also carry momentum (the magnet can gain momentum, too). If
something carries energy with no mass transport, the momentum is equal to
the energy divided by the speed that the energy moves at. This is an old
result by N. A. Umov, from 1874. If the speed is infinite, then the
momentum is zero. Since EM fields exert force, they _must_ carry momentum
(remember, Newton's 2nd law is "force = rate of change of momentum").
Since they carry momentum and energy, the speed must be finite. Since
momentum is conserved, the speed must be constant in free space.
Therefore, electromagnetic energy and momentum is carried by EM waves.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

EM fields don't have charge. The sources of EM fields are charges and
currents, but the fields themselves have no charge, so EM waves have no
charge.

What moves is energy and momentum. Basically, you can't move energy
without moving momentum.

As an aside, think about this: you can move momentum without moving
energy. Since momentum = energy/speed, this can be done if the speed
becomes zero. Consider two stationary charges: they exert forces on each
other, which means that there is a flow of momentum, but since there is no
movement, no work is done, and no energy is moved. Speed = 0 means that
static fields are "static" in a very real sense.

--
Timo Nieminen - Home page:http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
E-prints:http://eprint.uq.edu.au/view/person/Nieminen,_Timo_A..html
Shrine to Spirits:http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

With SR the luminif. aether was no more neccessary. But this aether
was that, M&M tryed to find.

And because Einstein destroyed it, no one want's to reopen this
matter. The fear loosing credibility is too high.
IMHO there must be another medium to carry EM waves --> energy is
transferred, vacuum has properties mentioned.
And regarding the energydensity of EM waves there was no saturation
to be observed to date.
Nobody is thinking about that, because we need no aether for
mathematics.

I, for sure will not find it, nor break it, to release it's (dark?)
energy.

Suppose that you suddenly turn a current on, for example, turn on an
electromagnet. You create a magnetic field. This magnetic field can exert
a force on a distant magnet, and can do work on - give it energy.
Therefore, EM fields can carry energy from one place to another.

Note that the electromagnet remains the same mass, and the distant magnet
the electromagnet's field does work on remains the same mass. The
transport of energy by the EM field doesn't involve the transport of mass.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:31:37 -0700, Rudolf Drabek <newsrudy@aon.at
wrote:

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

I have the vacuum thoroughly analyzed in my *permittivity* paper on my
website http://www.dualspace.net.
I set out to learn why permittivity existed in a vacuum such that
electrical energy could be stored there.
(If you use SI equations you can analyze for that; but if you use the
vapid cgs equations, no explanation is possible.
You will see that permittivity eps0 requires electron positron pairs
that are virtual joined by a a spring constant K. Charges deflect in
opposite directions in response to an electric field (polarization).
In fact epsilon is exactly given by
eps0 = 2e*rhoe/K
where e = electron charge, rhoe = electron charge/volume
the volume being L^3 the cell size.
Displacement currents are simply the polarization of otherwise neutral
looking virtual charges.
It's not easy going but check it out.
John Polasek

"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4ldf93husob2slptdgkq202779tlimi2v5@4ax.com...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:31:37 -0700, Rudolf Drabek <newsrudy@aon.at
wrote:

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle
behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating
charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

I have the vacuum thoroughly analyzed in my *permittivity* paper on
my
website http://www.dualspace.net.
I set out to learn why permittivity existed in a vacuum such that
electrical energy could be stored there.
(If you use SI equations you can analyze for that; but if you use the
vapid cgs equations, no explanation is possible.
You will see that permittivity eps0 requires electron positron pairs
that are virtual joined by a a spring constant K. Charges deflect in
opposite directions in response to an electric field (polarization).
In fact epsilon is exactly given by
eps0 = 2e*rhoe/K
where e = electron charge, rhoe = electron charge/volume
the volume being L^3 the cell size.
Displacement currents are simply the polarization of otherwise
neutral
looking virtual charges.
It's not easy going but check it out.
John Polasek

Hello John...

If you'da said THAT in your paper I woulda understood it and read the
whole thing! NOW I see what you were getting at!

Of course, we still have the issue of the existence of virtual charges
and a spring between them, but that's not much different than
believing in multidimensional strings, is it!

"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4ldf93husob2slptdgkq202779tlimi2v5@4ax.com...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:31:37 -0700, Rudolf Drabek <newsrudy@aon.at
wrote:

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

I have the vacuum thoroughly analyzed in my *permittivity* paper on my
website http://www.dualspace.net.
I set out to learn why permittivity existed in a vacuum such that
electrical energy could be stored there.
(If you use SI equations you can analyze for that; but if you use the
vapid cgs equations, no explanation is possible.
You will see that permittivity eps0 requires electron positron pairs
that are virtual joined by a a spring constant K. Charges deflect in
opposite directions in response to an electric field (polarization).
In fact epsilon is exactly given by
eps0 = 2e*rhoe/K
where e = electron charge, rhoe = electron charge/volume
the volume being L^3 the cell size.
Displacement currents are simply the polarization of otherwise neutral
looking virtual charges.
It's not easy going but check it out.
John Polasek

Hello John...

If you'da said THAT in your paper I woulda understood it and read the whole
thing! NOW I see what you were getting at!

Of course, we still have the issue of the existence of virtual charges and a
spring between them, but that's not much different than believing in
multidimensional strings, is it!

Bill Miller

I thank you for your kind attention, Bill.

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.
There are 11 messages in this thread as shown in OUtlook Express and

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:31:37 -0700, Rudolf Drabek <newsr...@aon.at
wrote:

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

There are 11 messages in this thread as shown in OUtlook Express and
Google Groups. My "Agent" reader now shows only 2 though there were 11
before. What is going on?
JOhn Polasek

Rudolf Drabek wrote:
This is no joke, I ask for help.

Come on! Asking for "help" on the Internet is automatically a joke!

Maxwell's theory is well known and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.

So, isn't that enough for you? Today physicists and other scientists
and engineers are completely satisfied to have a mathematical theory.
The important issue is how advanced are the mathematical principles
you are using. The more complex and the more "advanced", obviously the
more you know about science!

To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

And apparently neither has anyone else...at least since Maxwell did
it. But then his idea was that waves were carried by the luminiferous
aether.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.

Yes.

The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

We doan need no stinkin' propagating charges!

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.

Well, OK, if you insist, but you won't like it. In order for Maxwell's
equations to predict the existence of electromagnetic waves he had to
add an ad hoc term known as "displacement current" This fictitious
term boldly predicts that a changing electric field creates a magnetic
field. We already know a changing magnetic field (sort of) creates an
electric field by the process known as "induction". However, you
should note that the induced electric field is NOT the same field as
that produced by static charges. Anyway, the whole mathematical
structure more or less "works" and more or less predicts
electromagnetic phenomena.

But there remain problems. It turns out that "displacement currents"
actually don't exist. If you put a capacitor into a (black) box and
ramp a current into it you do NOT find a magnetic field about the box
equivalent to if the box just held a straight wire. It seems nobody
has ever been able to measure this. Oops!

So what gives? Well current thinking (and hand waving) is sort of
along the lines that a "displacement current" is just sort of a
property of empty space! In other words we KNOW that EM waves exist so
SOMETHING must be going on to propagate those waves. Einstein noted
that "empty" space isn't "void" but must have properties. And it seems
logical therefore that these properties of space give it luminiferous
properties. Einstein noted that in this sense the properties of space
are "Aether". Hence we have come full circle to the propagation of EM
waves being a property of the Aether of space. And the real kick in
the butt is that in truth nobody has actually taken time to properly
investigate whether the mathematical waves of Maxwell's ad hoc
assumption are identical to real waves produced in real space. Clearly
they are close to it, but exactly the same? Who knows?

However, the REAL problems with Maxwellian waves have to do with
quantum mechanics. These data seem to show that classical waves in a
medium (even one as ideal as aether) don't really exist. There are
particle attributes and truncations in space (never mind the jibber
jabber here about "probability waves" extending to infinity) that
clearly have no thinking "model" and upset the wave theory apple cart.
Probably the answer is that space itself is quantized and has the
properties of a field, but that is another topic for another time.

This is no joke, I ask for help.

Maxwell's theory is wellknown and describes all the math.
relationships of EM waves.
To date I never had the idea to ask for the physical principle behind.

I know and accept the induction principles that charges are the cause
for EM fields.
The vacuum has c, e_o and my_o, but where are the propagating charges?

Would be nice to get really a serious answer of my request.