I have developed a concentrating panel

Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
I have developed a concentrating panel

How many do you have ?

Two of them ? Mere lab prototypes.

Graham

I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for
every 50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power
solar panels this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric
ton in most sunny locations.

High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest
high pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100
per metric ton wheeling costs.

A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release
of 9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of
avoided carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900

A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the
release of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At
$8 per mcf and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth
over $1,200

A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release
of over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton
for coal and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over
$600

The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with
the addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth
$5,451. - making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen -
in this application.

So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States
cannot come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a
commitment to hydrogen.

All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at
low cost from sunlight

Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen
to it.

Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..

And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.

The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This
is sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than
double the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today -
and enough to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older
oil fields
all enter secondary production.

The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid
fuels. By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if
supply is unconstrained. However experts say by that time the
world's major petroleum fields will have all entered secondary
production, and by that time they will be producing around 45 million
barrels per day.

Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from?
Chevron says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific
American Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and
American Coal!!!

In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.

That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3
million million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750
billion. An additional $895 billion is required for coal processing
and handling to make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal
and hydrogen (no emissions).

Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day
are earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be
earned EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will
return over $17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for
America. It amounts to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America
dominant in energy will strengthen out economy and give us direct
control of world affairs we need to maintain our security.

Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock
market bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION
evaporated OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with
little effect. And in the past five years, America has earned all
that back and THEN SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to
invest $750 billion over the next 15 years for something as important
and valuable as this - AND ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.

How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that
despite the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable
hydrogen (with zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in
its own right.once people begin using it efficiently on a massive
scale.

Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of
12 million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5
million acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!)
and looking for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land
and its deserts total more than 1,000 million acres.

Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now
that will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in
area. Even so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the
creation of 14 plants of this size - this is something that's
achievable over the next 7 years - allowing us to meet this production
target in 14 years from today - 2021.

We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US
water, coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing
so will do little to undermine the value of present day oil companies
or their reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and
everyone having enough actually promotes open markets,
transparency,and market sanity. Shortages and fear lead to
disruptions of supply and war. Its clear what must be done. And I
have the technology to do it.

And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with
simple water filled lenses and CPV cells

I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can transmit
that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in America's West
and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and Canada and Mexico, for
$100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my cost of $270 per metric
ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for every
50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power solar panels
this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric ton in most sunny
locations.

High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest high
pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100 per
metric ton wheeling costs.

A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release of
9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of avoided
carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900

A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the release
of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At $8 per mcf
and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,200

A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release of
over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton for coal
and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over $600

The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with the
addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth $5,451. -
making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen - in this
application.

So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States cannot
come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a commitment
to hydrogen.

All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at low
cost from sunlight

Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen to
it.

Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..

And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.

The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This is
sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than double
the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today - and enough
to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older oil fields
all enter secondary production.

The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid fuels.
By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if supply is
unconstrained. However experts say by that time the world's major
petroleum fields will have all entered secondary production, and by that
time they will be producing around 45 million barrels per day.

Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from? Chevron
says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific American
Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and American
Coal!!!

In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.

That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3 million
million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750 billion. An
additional $895 billion is required for coal processing and handling to
make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal and hydrogen (no
emissions).

Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day are
earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be earned
EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will return over
$17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for America. It amounts
to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America dominant in energy will
strengthen out economy and give us direct control of world affairs we need
to maintain our security.

Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock market
bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION evaporated
OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with little effect.
And in the past five years, America has earned all that back and THEN
SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to invest $750 billion over
the next 15 years for something as important and valuable as this - AND
ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.

How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that despite
the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable hydrogen (with
zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in its own right.once
people begin using it efficiently on a massive scale.

Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of 12
million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5 million
acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!) and looking
for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land and its deserts
total more than 1,000 million acres.

Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now that
will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in area. Even
so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the creation of 14
plants of this size - this is something that's achievable over the next 7
years - allowing us to meet this production target in 14 years from today
- 2021.

We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US water,
coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing so will do
little to undermine the value of present day oil companies or their
reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and everyone having
enough actually promotes open markets, transparency,and market sanity.
Shortages and fear lead to disruptions of supply and war. Its clear what
must be done. And I have the technology to do it.

And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with simple
water filled lenses and CPV cells

Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for
every 50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power
solar panels this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric
ton in most sunny locations.

High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest
high pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100
per metric ton wheeling costs.

A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release
of 9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of
avoided carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900

A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the
release of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At
$8 per mcf and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth
over $1,200

A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release
of over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton
for coal and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over
$600

The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with
the addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth
$5,451. - making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen -
in this application.

So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States
cannot come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a
commitment to hydrogen.

All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at
low cost from sunlight

Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen
to it.

Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..

And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.

The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This
is sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than
double the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today -
and enough to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older
oil fields
all enter secondary production.

The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid
fuels. By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if
supply is unconstrained. However experts say by that time the
world's major petroleum fields will have all entered secondary
production, and by that time they will be producing around 45 million
barrels per day.

Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from?
Chevron says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific
American Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and
American Coal!!!

In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.

That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3
million million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750
billion. An additional $895 billion is required for coal processing
and handling to make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal
and hydrogen (no emissions).

Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day
are earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be
earned EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will
return over $17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for
America. It amounts to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America
dominant in energy will strengthen out economy and give us direct
control of world affairs we need to maintain our security.

Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock
market bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION
evaporated OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with
little effect. And in the past five years, America has earned all
that back and THEN SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to
invest $750 billion over the next 15 years for something as important
and valuable as this - AND ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.

How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that
despite the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable
hydrogen (with zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in
its own right.once people begin using it efficiently on a massive
scale.

Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of
12 million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5
million acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!)
and looking for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land
and its deserts total more than 1,000 million acres.

Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now
that will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in
area. Even so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the
creation of 14 plants of this size - this is something that's
achievable over the next 7 years - allowing us to meet this production
target in 14 years from today - 2021.

We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US
water, coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing
so will do little to undermine the value of present day oil companies
or their reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and
everyone having enough actually promotes open markets,
transparency,and market sanity. Shortages and fear lead to
disruptions of supply and war. Its clear what must be done. And I
have the technology to do it.

And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with
simple water filled lenses and CPV cells

Let me know when you have arranged to supply the equipment or large
amounts of hydrogen via a large scale retailer. With some flash back
equipment in place I'll switch over from using natural gas for heating
and hot water in my house. But don't bother me until retailers such as
Wal Mart are selling it.
FK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:07:02 +0000, Willie.Mookie wrote:
I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can transmit
that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in America's West
and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and Canada and Mexico, for
$100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my cost of $270 per metric
ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for every
50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power solar panels
this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric ton in most sunny
locations.

High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest high
pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100 per
metric ton wheeling costs.

A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release of
9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of avoided
carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900

A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the release
of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At $8 per mcf
and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,200

A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release of
over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton for coal
and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over $600

The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with the
addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth $5,451. -
making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen - in this
application.

So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States cannot
come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a commitment
to hydrogen.

All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at low
cost from sunlight

Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen to
it.

Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..

And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.

The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This is
sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than double
the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today - and enough
to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older oil fields
all enter secondary production.

The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid fuels.
By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if supply is
unconstrained. However experts say by that time the world's major
petroleum fields will have all entered secondary production, and by that
time they will be producing around 45 million barrels per day.

Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from? Chevron
says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific American
Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and American
Coal!!!

In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.

That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3 million
million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750 billion. An
additional $895 billion is required for coal processing and handling to
make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal and hydrogen (no
emissions).

Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day are
earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be earned
EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will return over
$17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for America. It amounts
to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America dominant in energy will
strengthen out economy and give us direct control of world affairs we need
to maintain our security.

Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock market
bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION evaporated
OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with little effect.
And in the past five years, America has earned all that back and THEN
SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to invest $750 billion over
the next 15 years for something as important and valuable as this - AND
ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.

How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that despite
the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable hydrogen (with
zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in its own right.once
people begin using it efficiently on a massive scale.

Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of 12
million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5 million
acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!) and looking
for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land and its deserts
total more than 1,000 million acres.

Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now that
will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in area. Even
so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the creation of 14
plants of this size - this is something that's achievable over the next 7
years - allowing us to meet this production target in 14 years from today
- 2021.

We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US water,
coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing so will do
little to undermine the value of present day oil companies or their
reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and everyone having
enough actually promotes open markets, transparency,and market sanity.
Shortages and fear lead to disruptions of supply and war. Its clear what
must be done. And I have the technology to do it.

And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with simple
water filled lenses and CPV cells

I hate to be the bearer of bad news,

but there are a few things you should
know

about electrolyser systems before you get too carried away.

Electrolysis cells have an I2R loss proportional to the current density,
electrolyte composition, and geometry.

That can be reduced,

but will
always depend on current.

Also, electrodes exhibit "overvoltage", depending on composition, ranging
from a few mv for Pt black to hundreds of mv for stainless steel

Overvoltage is relatively independent of current, more like a
semiconductor junction potential, and can cause significant losses
even at lower current densities.

There are also gas separation issues when both electrode sets are in the
same enclosure. It's not a good idea to pressurize stoichiometric
mixtures of H2 and O2, as in the link you posted.

So when all is said and done, I suspect you will find electrolyser
efficiencies in the real world will run more in the 70%-80% range.

Also, you can make the equivalent of a variable electrolyser cell with a
variable current switching regulator which would likely be more reliable.

I recommend thoroughly full load life cycle testing any electrolyser you
are counting on to exceed 75% efficiency.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're
different.

http://www.energyideas.org/default.cfm?o=h,g,ds&c=z,z,3090- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 9, 5:03 pm, Fred Kasner <fkas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.
At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for
every 50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power
solar panels this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric
ton in most sunny locations.
High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest
high pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100
per metric ton wheeling costs.
A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release
of 9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of
avoided carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900
A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the
release of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At
$8 per mcf and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth
over $1,200
A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release
of over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton
for coal and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over
$600
The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with
the addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth
$5,451. - making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen -
in this application.
So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States
cannot come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a
commitment to hydrogen.
All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at
low cost from sunlight
Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen
to it.
Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..
And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.
The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This
is sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than
double the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today -
and enough to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older
oil fields
all enter secondary production.
The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid
fuels. By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if
supply is unconstrained. However experts say by that time the
world's major petroleum fields will have all entered secondary
production, and by that time they will be producing around 45 million
barrels per day.
Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from?
Chevron says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific
American Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and
American Coal!!!
In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.
That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3
million million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750
billion. An additional $895 billion is required for coal processing
and handling to make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal
and hydrogen (no emissions).
Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day
are earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be
earned EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will
return over $17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for
America. It amounts to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America
dominant in energy will strengthen out economy and give us direct
control of world affairs we need to maintain our security.
Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock
market bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION
evaporated OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with
little effect. And in the past five years, America has earned all
that back and THEN SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to
invest $750 billion over the next 15 years for something as important
and valuable as this - AND ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.
How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that
despite the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable
hydrogen (with zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in
its own right.once people begin using it efficiently on a massive
scale.
Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of
12 million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5
million acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!)
and looking for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land
and its deserts total more than 1,000 million acres.
Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now
that will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in
area. Even so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the
creation of 14 plants of this size - this is something that's
achievable over the next 7 years - allowing us to meet this production
target in 14 years from today - 2021.
We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US
water, coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing
so will do little to undermine the value of present day oil companies
or their reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and
everyone having enough actually promotes open markets,
transparency,and market sanity. Shortages and fear lead to
disruptions of supply and war. Its clear what must be done. And I
have the technology to do it.
And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with
simple water filled lenses and CPV cells
Let me know when you have arranged to supply the equipment or large
amounts of hydrogen via a large scale retailer. With some flash back
equipment in place I'll switch over from using natural gas for heating
and hot water in my house. But don't bother me until retailers such as
Wal Mart are selling it.
FK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, Fred, I'm not bothering you at all I hope! haha..

I'm putting in facilities which are providing approximately 2,800 MT
per day at two sites in Indonesia to power the site as well as dewater
and hydrogenate directly the coal (without burning it) forming a blend
of liquid fuels - gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel.

I am in the process of acquiring 12 million acres of desert lands in
the US West ande Southwest from a small number of large land holders
and I have rights of way to transmit HVDC and gaseous hydrogen between
all the sites.

I am in negotiation with 159 coal fired power plants in the United
States to provide hydrogen gas to those plants taking coal in trade to
defray the costs. I will of course hydrogenate the coal to make
liquid fuels as I am doing in Indonesia.

I am building a AU$90 million facility to desalinate seawater in
Australia using solar power. Both the salt and fresh water are
byproducts.

I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for
every 50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power
solar panels this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric
ton in most sunny locations.

High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest
high pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100
per metric ton wheeling costs.
Snip...

Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jun 9, 5:03 pm, Fred Kasner <fkas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.
At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for
every 50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power
solar panels this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric
ton in most sunny locations.
High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest
high pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100
per metric ton wheeling costs.
A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release
of 9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of
avoided carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900
A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the
release of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At
$8 per mcf and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth
over $1,200
A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release
of over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton
for coal and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over
$600
The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with
the addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth
$5,451. - making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen -
in this application.
So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States
cannot come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a
commitment to hydrogen.
All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at
low cost from sunlight
Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen
to it.
Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..
And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.
The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This
is sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than
double the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today -
and enough to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older
oil fields
all enter secondary production.
The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid
fuels. By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if
supply is unconstrained. However experts say by that time the
world's major petroleum fields will have all entered secondary
production, and by that time they will be producing around 45 million
barrels per day.
Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from?
Chevron says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific
American Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and
American Coal!!!
In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.
That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3
million million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750
billion. An additional $895 billion is required for coal processing
and handling to make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal
and hydrogen (no emissions).
Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day
are earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be
earned EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will
return over $17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for
America. It amounts to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America
dominant in energy will strengthen out economy and give us direct
control of world affairs we need to maintain our security.
Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock
market bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION
evaporated OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with
little effect. And in the past five years, America has earned all
that back and THEN SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to
invest $750 billion over the next 15 years for something as important
and valuable as this - AND ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.
How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that
despite the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable
hydrogen (with zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in
its own right.once people begin using it efficiently on a massive
scale.
Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of
12 million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5
million acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!)
and looking for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land
and its deserts total more than 1,000 million acres.
Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now
that will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in
area. Even so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the
creation of 14 plants of this size - this is something that's
achievable over the next 7 years - allowing us to meet this production
target in 14 years from today - 2021.
We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US
water, coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing
so will do little to undermine the value of present day oil companies
or their reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and
everyone having enough actually promotes open markets,
transparency,and market sanity. Shortages and fear lead to
disruptions of supply and war. Its clear what must be done. And I
have the technology to do it.
And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with
simple water filled lenses and CPV cells
Let me know when you have arranged to supply the equipment or large
amounts of hydrogen via a large scale retailer. With some flash back
equipment in place I'll switch over from using natural gas for heating
and hot water in my house. But don't bother me until retailers such as
Wal Mart are selling it.
FK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, Fred, I'm not bothering you at all I hope! haha..

I'm putting in facilities which are providing approximately 2,800 MT
per day at two sites in Indonesia to power the site as well as dewater
and hydrogenate directly the coal (without burning it) forming a blend
of liquid fuels - gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel.

I am in the process of acquiring 12 million acres of desert lands in
the US West ande Southwest from a small number of large land holders
and I have rights of way to transmit HVDC and gaseous hydrogen between
all the sites.

I am in negotiation with 159 coal fired power plants in the United
States to provide hydrogen gas to those plants taking coal in trade to
defray the costs. I will of course hydrogenate the coal to make
liquid fuels as I am doing in Indonesia.

I am building a AU$90 million facility to desalinate seawater in
Australia using solar power. Both the salt and fresh water are
byproducts.

Clearly a major fraud, supreme braggadocio, or mad delusion.
FK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 9, 7:19 pm, Bill Ward <b...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:07:02 +0000, Willie.Mookie wrote:
I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and makes a ton of hydrogen for
every 50 MWh input into it. Connected with $70 per kW peak power
solar panels this system makes hydrogen for less than $170 per metric
ton in most sunny locations.

High pressure hydrogen gas produced at these sunny locations can be
transmitted at greater than 1 GW power levels through quite modest
high pressure pipes anywhere in the continental US for less than $100
per metric ton wheeling costs.

A ton of hydrogen displaces 23.2 barrels of oil and avoids the release
of 9.9 tons of carbon dioxide. At $68 per barrel and $18 per ton of
avoided carbon dioxide a ton of hydrogen is worth over $1,900

A ton of hydrogen displaces 134 mcf of natural gas and avoids the
release of over 7 tons of CO2 when used in place of natural gas. At
$8 per mcf and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 - a ton of hydrogen is worth
over $1,200

A ton of hydrogen displaces 6.17 tons of coal and avoids the release
of over 22.6 tons of CO2 when used in place of coal. At $40 per ton
for coal and $18 per avoided ton of CO2 this hydrogen is worth over
$600

The stranded coal can be converted to 1,817 gallons of gasoline with
the addition of 772 kg of hydrogen. At $3 per gallon this is worth
$5,451. - making the hydrogen worth over $7,000 per ton of hydrogen -
in this application.

So, there is no reason with my technology that the United States
cannot come to dominate the energy supplies of the world by making a
commitment to hydrogen.

All users of coal and natural gas can easily use hydrogen produced at
low cost from sunlight

Stranded coal is easily converted to gasoline by adding more hydrogen
to it.

Surplus gasoline is shipped over seas along with liquified natural gas
unused here. Hydrogen ultimately will be liquified too and shipped to
users overseas replacing the older hydrocarbon fuels..

And this approach gives the United States time to take control of its
energy futureand keep it.

The US has 245 billion tons of easily recoverable coal reserves. This
is sufficient to provide 1,715 billion barrels of gasoline - more than
double the amount of hydrocarbons presently left in the world today -
and enough to supply the coming shortfall for over 50 years as older
oil fields all enter secondary production.

The world presently consumes 82 million barrels per day of liquid
fuels. By 2025 demand will grow to 115 million barrels per day - if
supply is unconstrained. However experts say by that time the
world's major petroleum fields will have all entered secondary
production, and by that time they will be producing around 45 million
barrels per day.

Where will the 70 million barrels per day shortfall come from? Chevron
says it will come from alternatives and renewables (Scientific
American Page 1, June 2007) And those renewables are my hydrogen and
American Coal!!!

In 2025 that 70 million barrels of extra American oil per day means 10
million tons per day of American coal. And 1 million tons per day of
American hydrogen from 9 million tons of American water.

That will require 50 million MWh of solar electricity generated from
American sunlight. Which in turn requires the installation of 8.3
million million peak watts of solar panels at a cost of $750 billion.
An additional $895 billion is required for coal processing and
handling to make the gasoline dieself fuel and jet fuel from coal and
hydrogen (no emissions).

Profits of $50 per barrel mean that $3.5 billion in profits each day
are earned. It also means that $1,278.3 billion in profits will be
earned EACH YEAR meaning each dollar invested in the equipment will
return over $17 !!! Clearly this is financially rewarding for
America. It amounts to over 10% of US GDP. Obviously making America
dominant in energy will strengthen out economy and give us direct
control of world affairs we need to maintain our security.

Does America have that kind of money? ABSOLUTELY. The US stock
market bubble of the 1990s burst in 2000 - and $3,000 BILLION
evaporated OVERNIGHT! And America was able to absorb that loss with
little effect. And in the past five years, America has earned all that
back and THEN SOME! So, clearly America has the capacity to invest
$750 billion over the next 15 years for something as important and
valuable as this - AND ELECTROLYZERS FORM A CRITICAL COMPONENT.

How long can America continue shipping oil at this rate? For over 50
years. But the other important thing to keep in mind, is that
despite the large-scale production of oil from coal and renewable
hydrogen (with zero emissions) - the renewable hydrogen can be used in
its own right.once people begin using it efficiently on a massive
scale.

Does American have enough land? Well, 8.3 million million watts of
electrical power using my low cost panels requires the installation of
12 million acres of solar panels. I am already organizing over 5
million acres in North America from private holders (all 3 of them!)
and looking for more. The US has over .6,000 million acres of land
and its deserts total more than 1,000 million acres.

Can we make that many panels? Sure, I'm organizing production now
that will generate over 200 million panels a year each 4' x 8 in area.
Even so, to cover 12 million acres in 7 years will require the
creation of 14 plants of this size - this is something that's
achievable over the next 7 years - allowing us to meet this production
target in 14 years from today - 2021.

We can do it America, dominate the world's energy supplies with US
water, coal and sunlight - and most importantly US technology. Doing
so will do little to undermine the value of present day oil companies
or their reserves, because they can't meet rising demand anyway and
everyone having enough actually promotes open markets,
transparency,and market sanity. Shortages and fear lead to disruptions
of supply and war. Its clear what must be done. And I have the
technology to do it.

And simple stainless steel electrolyzers are part of it along with
simple water filled lenses and CPV cells

I hate to be the bearer of bad news,

Yeah, I can feel your pain! haha..

but there are a few things you should know

Really? Like I don't already know them?

about electrolyser systems before you get too carried away.

Alright, shoot.

Electrolysis cells have an I2R loss proportional to the current density,
electrolyte composition, and geometry.

Why thank you Mr. Science! Why in the world did you think someone who
works in the field didn't now this elementary fact? Also please know
that solar cells have i-squared-R losses too! And I've handled that quite
nixely. All you're saying is that efficient electrolyzers hare high
voltage devices possessing a large number of plates stacked in series. I
think that's a more positive way of putting it! haha..

That can be reduced,

Why yes it can! And can you take the differential and the limit of the
the relationships you just alluded to and compute what the losses can be
reduced to in the limit? Hmm..??? Can you? Well, here, let me give
you a hint. The answer is zero.

Now, there's another formula you need to look at - one that relates
geometry and surface area and so forth to COST - and how that VARIES with
the LOSS drivers. And guess what, using variational techniques you can
calculate what the least cost system can be.

And we've developed a system that costs $0.02 per peak watt - has variable
load characteristics to work well with variable sources like solar panels
and windmills, and even as a secondary load to a baseload generator -

but will always depend on current.

I think you've missed a few points there Ward, actually the total power
depends on current and voltage and the efficient voltage depends on number
of plates and the breakdown voltage of water given the molar ratio of the
electrolytic solution you're using. As I said above, heating can be
reduced in the limit to zero as plate spacing approaches zero and plate
area approaches infinity. For a given manufacturing technique - and metal
- there are cost drivers that when APPROPRIATE analyzed determine relevant
and achievable cost targets.

Also, electrodes exhibit "overvoltage", depending on composition,
ranging from a few mv for Pt black to hundreds of mv for stainless steel

That's right. Very good of you to mention that. I mentioned it a few
sentences back.

Overvoltage is relatively independent of current, more like a
semiconductor junction potential, and can cause significant losses even
at lower current densities.

You use these words like significant, but can you cite actual losses?

My systems operate at 85% efficiency

you tell us all why Ward?)

There are also gas separation issues when both electrode sets are in
the same enclosure. It's not a good idea to pressurize stoichiometric
mixtures of H2 and O2, as in the link you posted.

Absolutely - the oxyhydrogen mixture described there is insanity in my
book - but it is very specific in many of the hands on steps needed to
make electrolyzers.

Any practical system uses a header or membrane to keep the gases
separate.
In the systems I build - they're stationary sitting at the end of a
long
row of panels - in a stationary application the use of headers is
perfectly acceptable. The oxygen actually is blown down through a
turbo-charger exhaust to drive a system that pressurizes the water, and
the hydrogen is captured at relatively high pressure requiring no
separate booster of its own which reduces costs.

So when all is said and done, I suspect you will find electrolyser
efficiencies in the real world will run more in the 70%-80% range.

Well, its your suspicion versus my experience dude. My experience is
that 85% efficiency is routinely achieved with solar panels properly
accounting for pressurization energy of course.

Also, you can make the equivalent of a variable electrolyser cell with
a variable current switching regulator which would likely be more
reliable.

More reliable than what? You're not being clear here. You're talking
out of your ass and I'm describing what I've built and tested. And you
make these dismissive comments generally referring to variable current
without saying just how you're varying the current. Haha.. fact is
you've got two problems with a solar driven electrolyzer (wind driven
and load driven are totally separate and different) - the first the
efficient electrolysis action, the second is peak power matching of the
solar panels. Solar cells have a current-voltage curve. They have an
open circuit voltage - but no current flows, so there's no power. They
have a short circuit current - but no voltage, so again no power.
Between these two points there is a peak power point. And that curve,
and that point, varies with illumination. So, any load attached to the
solar panel must adjust itself to the output of the solar panel with
changing conditions of illumination.
Now, what's the least expensive way to do this?

You see Ward, I've designed a SYSTEM - not just a COMPONENT. You
mention components, but you don't tell us how they are assembled into a
finished system to achieve the end of harvesting sunlight as hydrogen -
AT THE LOWEST COST POSSIBLE TODAY!

That's what I've DONE old man. I've DONE IT! haha.. I haven't guessed
about it, and I haven't any suspicions about it. I've done it. And
I've gotten a few projects underway and I'm getting a production line
set up, and that's that.

I recommend thoroughly full load life cycle testing any electrolyser
you are counting on to exceed 75% efficiency.

Ayup!

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're
different.

Depends on how well you understand theory. Being handy with a
differential equation and knowing your way around Calculus of variations
is a big help in eliminating many of the mysteries those without this
skill set encounter.

Fact is Ward, thin nickel foil electrodes configured appropriately and
assembled efficiently operating with a water based electrolyte can
efficiently produce hydrogen at high pressure with 78.8% efficiency -
producing a metric ton of pressurized hydrogen gas for 50 kWh of solar
DC electricity - at a capital cost of $0.02 per peak watt - for the
electrolzyer and $0.07 per peak watt for the solar panel.

Located in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, or Southern California, a
kW of capacity covering 5.6 sq m costs $90 and produces 32 kg to 40 kg
of hydrogen gas over the course of a year. Over its 20 year expected
life produces 640 kg to 800 kg. Now, a simple dividing of $90 into
this amount of hydrogen yields $0.11 to $0.14 per kg. But anyone who
has ever gotten a mortgage on a house knows that money has a time value.
So tying up money for 20 years must be accounted for. And when you do
that, you'll see that the real cost is $0.17 per kg - or $170 per metric
ton.

Transmitting hydrogen long distances as a high pressure gas is also
possible. Gas is transmitted through specially prepared pipelines
anywhere in the Continental US or Canada,at a cost of about $100 per
metric ton. A pipe 1 meter in diameter - operating at 680 bar - (the
gathering system in the field operates at 700 bar and blows down into a
larger pipe) - and delivers 29,000 MT per day per pipeline.

The specific rates of production are

AREA: 15.6 g/da/m2 to 19.5 g/da/m2 - and
DOLLARS: 973 mg/da/$ to 1,217 mg/da/$

So, 29,000 MT per day requires;

AREA: 1,858 sq km to 1,487 sq km
DOLLARS: $29.8 billion to $23.8 billion

to efficiently use each pipeline.

Now, can we make money producing hydrogen for $270 per MT?

You tell me...

On a heat value basis 1 MT of hydrogen is equal to;


23.2 barrels of crude oil at $68 per barrel that's $1,580 per
MT H2
134.1 mcf of natural gas at $8 per mcf that's $1,073 per MT H2
6.78 short tons of coal at $40 per ton that's $271 per MT H2

The value of advoided carbon by burning 1 MT of hydrogen is

22.37 tons of avoided CO2 when replacing coal
9.86 tons of avoided CO2 when replacing crude oil 7.02 tons of
avoided CO2 when replacing natural gas

The value of avoided carbon dioxide is given by the CCX and other
trading desks for carbon credits. These prices vary daily, as all prices
do,but assuming an average value of $20 per avoided ton, and adding that
value to the values computed above, we have the following values for
hydrogen when used to displace other fuels;

1 MT H2 when displacing oil $1,777
1 MT H2 when displacing natural gas $1,213 1 MT H2 when displacing
coal $718

MAKING OIL FROM COAL
Hydrogen can be used to hydrogenate products creating other products. An
interesting product to hydrogenate is carbon - since the result is
hydrocarbons.

Since the US burned 1.1 billion tons of coal to produce electricity in
2004 - and since replacing ALL that coal burning with hydrogen strands
that coal, would it be possible to hydrogenate the coal and make
gasoline diesel fuel and jet fuel out of it instead? If so, how much
hydrogen would it take? How much fuel would it make? and how much
would it be worth?

Well, here are the relevant figures;

1 MT H2 when added to 9 MT coal produces 2,650 gallons
gasoline
(this number varies with coal type and rank,but these numbers are
typical)

There are no emissions, and no CO2 is produced at this stage. Nearly
all the carbon ends up in the liquid fuel.

To avoid increasing the carbon load of the planet, lets take the coal
from a coal burning power plant. So,that will mean another 1.46 MT of
hydrogen will be needed to substitute for the coal. So,a total of 2.46
MT of hydrogen results in 2,650 gallons of gasoline.

Gasoline recently traded for $3.17 on the markets last month. That
means the gasoline produced by 2.46 MT of hydrogen is $8,400 - $3,414
per MT.


1.46 MT H2 ---> 9 MT stranded Coal
1.00 MT H2 + 9 MT Coal ---> 2,650 gallons gasoline

1 MT H2 when used to make gasoline is worth $3,414 per MT


So,a pipeline of gaseous hydrogen delivering 29,000 MT of hydrogen per
day across the country can power 11 GW electrical output of coal fired
generators and hydrogenate the stranded coal at the plant, producing 1.3
million gallons of liquid fuel AN HOUR! and creating $99 million per
day in revenues.

This is 11.3 billion gallons of gasoline per year about 3.5% of the US
total consumption of the stuff, and 11 GW is about 1.8% of the US total
electrical supply, and 3.5% of the US total coal fired plants.

Converting ALL coal fired plants to hydrogen in this way requires 28
pipelines fed by 28 solar systems of the size described above, and would
create a condition where the US would become a net exporter of liquid
fuels from its producing wells.

Obviously the conditions would be ripe for using the hydrogen directly,
and exporting it directly without combining it with carbon.

Willie.Moo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1181401622.440614.295710@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...



I have developed a concentrating panel and variable electrolyzer
technology that makes hydrogen for $170 per metric ton. I can
transmit that hydrogen, produced on large tracts of land located in
America's West and Southwest, anywhere in the continental US,and
Canada and Mexico, for $100 per metric ton - delivering hydrogen at my
cost of $270 per metric ton.

At costs of $20 per kW of peak demand I have a simple variable load
electrolyzer that is 85% efficient and m