| |
 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Anthropology Forum » Irish NOT "White"? |
|
Page 4 of 5 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Gerry Doyle |
 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:26 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:q0s330pamd67hoqvrv1dtnhvl6f0pju6pa@4ax.com...
[quote:2abd600167]Scríobh "Gerry Doyle" <alacrity@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net>:
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
[...]
Yes. The Celts are the peoples of northern Europe who spoke -and
speak- Celtic languages. In essence, the non-Germanic Iron Age
northern European cultures.
There are Celtic in Ireland,
Britain, and France.
Aren't the central Europeans celtic of sorts too?
No, they have some Celtic ancestry. Depending on how you define
"central" Europe, most of them these days speak either Germanic or
Slavic languages.
But you just said that the Celts were people who used to speak celtic
languages, so it doesn't matter what they speak now, does it?
Whatever they speak now is what they are now, in a linguistic sense.
The French today are Romance speakers. The fact their Gaulish
ancestors were Celts doesn't make them Celts.
[/quote:2abd600167]
You've lost me now. So celtic speaking French aren't celts, while, say a
Nigerian bloke speaking Irish would be? Surely the original poster was
asking about celtic peoples rather than celtic speakers? As you know, the
gaelgoirs of Connemara predate the celts, so you are saying that they become
celts by virtue of the language they speak? That just doesn't make sense to
me.
[quote:2abd600167]What do you
mean by 'some' celtic ancestry, if they have some, then they have celtic
ancestry, much as ourselves, surely?
I mean not all Central Europeans were Celts. Many spoke Germanic
languages, ferinstance.
[/quote:2abd600167]
Doesn't mean that they stopped being what they were, surely?
[quote:2abd600167]Maybe not the same sort
of celts, but I'd have thought that the majority of celts, maybe not
so much
now but definitely in the past, were to be found all along the Danube
direction?
Central Europe is Celtic in the same way that Dublin is Viking, or
Marseilles is Greek. Its part of its history, not its present.
If present language is what counts, then is Ireland not Anglo-Saxon by
those
lights?
Mostly, yes. More accurately, they're anglophone.
[/quote:2abd600167]
That's another thing altogether then, all sorts of people are anglophone,
which would seem to point up the fallacy of grouping them by language.
Our people are to a
[quote:2abd600167]lesser or greater degree Celtic speakers, but we are predominantly
English-speaking.
[/quote:2abd600167]
So do we change from celts and back again as the language waxes and wanes?
G |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| O'Kiwi |
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:28 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:55:47 -0000, "michael adams"
<mjadams25@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
[quote:4010bcd271]
"FŽachad—ir" <FŽach@d.—ir> wrote in message
news:433530h82s9btthbercpbbj3h7d3gc1f8c@4ax.com...
Scr’obh Jochen <jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com>:
In article
cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:
*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed
to
support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population can be
free of colonial oppression?
Things are never your fault, are they? Anybody can learn at least one
other language with ease. All it takes is a bit of work. There is no
gift
involved.
Can't be that difficult. I know two year olds who can manage it.
...
Nice one:
It's believed small children are in fact hard wired* for easy language
acquisition.
IIRR its been demonstrated experimentally, that this appears to
deteriorate with non-use in later years.
michael adams
*so Chomsky claimed to have demonstated with his deep structures
at least
[/quote:4010bcd271]
Ger probably knows this too...
Nik |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Féachadóir |
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:34 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Scríobh "Gerry Doyle" <alacrity@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net>:
[quote:8f69f15ba8]
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:q0s330pamd67hoqvrv1dtnhvl6f0pju6pa@4ax.com...
Scríobh "Gerry Doyle" <alacrity@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net>:
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
[...]
Yes. The Celts are the peoples of northern Europe who spoke -and
speak- Celtic languages. In essence, the non-Germanic Iron Age
northern European cultures.
There are Celtic in Ireland,
Britain, and France.
Aren't the central Europeans celtic of sorts too?
No, they have some Celtic ancestry. Depending on how you define
"central" Europe, most of them these days speak either Germanic or
Slavic languages.
But you just said that the Celts were people who used to speak celtic
languages, so it doesn't matter what they speak now, does it?
Whatever they speak now is what they are now, in a linguistic sense.
The French today are Romance speakers. The fact their Gaulish
ancestors were Celts doesn't make them Celts.
You've lost me now. So celtic speaking French aren't celts,
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
Celtic speaking Gauls who lived in what is now France were Celts.
Their descendants today do not speak Gaulish, they speak French, they
are Romance speakers, not Celts.
[quote:8f69f15ba8]while, say a
Nigerian bloke speaking Irish would be?
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
Yes. Celtic is a linguistic designation.
[quote:8f69f15ba8]Surely the original poster was
asking about celtic peoples rather than celtic speakers?
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
And there's the error. Celtic speakers *are* the celtic people.
Celtic people are, by definition, people who speak celtic languages.
[quote:8f69f15ba8]As you know, the
gaelgoirs of Connemara predate the celts,
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
No, I don't know that.
[quote:8f69f15ba8]so you are saying that they become
celts by virtue of the language they speak? That just doesn't make sense to
me.
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
To say someone is a Celt is to say they speak a Celtic language. What
part of it are you having difficulty with?
[quote:8f69f15ba8]What do you
mean by 'some' celtic ancestry, if they have some, then they have celtic
ancestry, much as ourselves, surely?
I mean not all Central Europeans were Celts. Many spoke Germanic
languages, ferinstance.
Doesn't mean that they stopped being what they were, surely?
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
Last I looked, there were still lots of people in Central Europe
speaking Germanic languages.
[quote:8f69f15ba8]Maybe not the same sort
of celts, but I'd have thought that the majority of celts, maybe not
so much
now but definitely in the past, were to be found all along the Danube
direction?
Central Europe is Celtic in the same way that Dublin is Viking, or
Marseilles is Greek. Its part of its history, not its present.
If present language is what counts, then is Ireland not Anglo-Saxon by
those
lights?
Mostly, yes. More accurately, they're anglophone.
That's another thing altogether then, all sorts of people are anglophone,
which would seem to point up the fallacy of grouping them by language.
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
You classify people by language when you're talking about languages.
"Celtic" is a language-related classification.
[quote:8f69f15ba8]Our people are to a
lesser or greater degree Celtic speakers, but we are predominantly
English-speaking.
So do we change from celts and back again as the language waxes and wanes?
[/quote:8f69f15ba8]
The population of Celts changes over time, just as every population
does
--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Matthew Huntbach |
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:41 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In case anyone *really* wants to know ...
Groups lobbying for Irish people in the UK wanted an accurate count of
the number of people in Britain who considered themselves to be
"Irish". As a result of this lobbying, it was agreed that on the
section of the census where you tick a box for your ethnic origin,
there is a separate box for "Irish". Local authorities collecting
statistics for their own purposes similarly added such a box on their
forms. As no other group of Europeans similarly lobbied for such a
special count, apart from the Irish box, and all the various non-white
boxes, there is only a "white" box.
This was something done only very recently. I remember when an "Irish"
box was added to ethnic monitoring forms in my local authority a few
years ago, there was a big party had in the local Irish club in
celebration of what they regarded as a recognition of the Irish and
their contribution to the area.
It is ironic (but typical) that something done at the behest of Irish
people in order to help them is held up by the ignorant as a supposed
indication of anti-Irish attitudes. It quite obviously does NOT
indicate that there is any sort of long-term historical belief that
the Irish are "non-white".
Matthew Huntbach
"T. A. Lane" <terrylane@earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote:eddc99e97d]I don't know the answer to this, but I asked my boyfriend and this is what
he said. He said he wasn't 100% positive, but this is his best guess:
I'm no expert on this stuff, but as I understand it, the Irish are different
because they are more purely Celtic than the rest of the UK or Continental
Europe (both of which were Celtic at one time, but later shifted).
"Newsgroup Poster" <ng_poster@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afff3966.0311131048.30d77904@posting.google.com...
Honest question, folks --
Can anyone confirm or deny WITH "scholarly citation" the following
statements?
The Irish at one time were not viewed as "white" by the British (since
"race" is a sociological construct anyway, and the definition back
then was such that many spoke in all earnesty of categories like "the
German race", "the Irish race", etc.).[/quote:eddc99e97d] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Cuddley Fred |
| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:54 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
[quote:3d5fc9c54d]Ah well, I could be wrong.
Nik
Now wait a minute... you know making any such statement goes against[/quote:3d5fc9c54d]
every newsgroup rule, norm, convention, posting style etc, as well as
flying in the face of years of fiercely upheld newsgroup tradition...
fair play t'ye anyway
Cuddley |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| O'Kiwi |
| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:36 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On 26 Feb 2004 11:54:20 -0800, cuddleyfred@excite.com (Cuddley Fred)
wrote:
[quote:6cf26bd939]Ah well, I could be wrong.
Nik
Now wait a minute... you know making any such statement goes against
every newsgroup rule, norm, convention, posting style etc, as well as
flying in the face of years of fiercely upheld newsgroup tradition...
[/quote:6cf26bd939]
I'm not your usual usenet type person.
[quote:6cf26bd939]fair play t'ye anyway
[/quote:6cf26bd939]
Well thanks. If we ever meet I'll buy you a pint and we can resume
this argument...
Nik |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Disco Stu |
| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:05 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:08ig405utj2qdrqvr5d9q5379gl7roegsj@4ax.com...
[quote:1459396acb]Scríobh Disco Stu <stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:
Then you were taught wrong.
[/quote:1459396acb]
I disagree, at least in terms of cultural anthropology. A linguist may have
a diferent vew of course.
[quote:1459396acb]Don't fret it though, I was taught in primary school that the
invasions of the Lebor Gabla Érenn were historic fact
[/quote:1459396acb]
Well as interesting as that may be, it doesn't really support your claim
that "I was tought wrong". Where is your evidence?
[quote:1459396acb]*********Today, the term Celt is applied to
a speaker of a Celtic language.*************
[/quote:1459396acb]
It says it is *applied* to a speaker of a Celtic language. Not that it is
its only, one and true correct meaning. There are many terms that are
*applied* that may be incorrect. The term "Organic" is often applied to
inorganic substances like salt.
I'm prepared to share a linguistic definition of Celt with a cultural one.
There are several references to the linguistic view online from reputable
sites, but there seem to be more references to Celt being a 'people' or
'culture'. Examples of Celtic culture beyond language include advanced iron
working (superiour to Roman) and the use of liquid soap (more hygenic that
the Roman warmed oils).
Thus, I would use the quote below to summerise the entry.
**Celtic refers primarily to a cultural and linguistic family, not an ethnic
one**
But it's no skin off my nose whether you hold only to the linguistic
definition. The important thing is that you don't claim Celt as an
ethnicity, which I believe is the original point of this thread.
[quote:1459396acb]--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir[/quote:1459396acb] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Ganton Pretz |
| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:05 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
diarmidlogan@yahoo.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<6d220a72.0402180712.72b6ecd5@posting.google.com>...
[quote:43908993e2]Jochen <jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:<4c8240d932jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com>...
In article <cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:
*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed to
support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population can be
free of colonial oppression?
Things are never your fault, are they?
How am I blaming anyone else for my own inability to speak Irish?
Anybody can learn at least one
other language with ease. All it takes is a bit of work. There is no gift
involved.
I have tried to learn Irish and have been unsuccessful. Now what does
my inability to speak Irish have to do with the fact that the British
have been oppressing the indigenous Irish for centuries?
[/quote:43908993e2]
The indigenous Irish have been oppressing themselves since Irishness
began. I can barely walk five yards without being oppressed by
somebody or other.
I frequently ask them "are you indigenously Irish?" and if they say
"probably", I then put a tick on my little notebook.
This is what is recorded thus far:
Oppression by indigenously Irish (3,456)
Oppression by visiting Norwegian (1)
Oppression by wild Gerbils (0) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Turlough |
| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:23 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Ganton Pretz wrote:
[quote:b6174291d3]The indigenous Irish have been oppressing themselves since Irishness
began. I can barely walk five yards without being oppressed by
somebody or other.
[/quote:b6174291d3]
Then, Mr. Pretz, you're obviously a member of the *in* crowd in the
indigenous dynamic Mr. Logan has suggested. If the Irish gov't decides
to adopt auld Dermot's principles of genetics and hereditary rights, and
boots out all the evil Germanics, Anglo-Saxons, and the odd Czech, there
won't be enough people left for a hurling match...
Turlough |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Féachadóir |
| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:16 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Scríobh "Disco Stu" <disco_stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:
[quote:82d231c56f]
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:08ig405utj2qdrqvr5d9q5379gl7roegsj@4ax.com...
Scríobh Disco Stu <stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:
Then you were taught wrong.
I disagree, at least in terms of cultural anthropology. A linguist may have
a diferent vew of course.
[/quote:82d231c56f]
I wasn't aware "Celt" was a term used in cultural anthropology.
[quote:82d231c56f]Don't fret it though, I was taught in primary school that the
invasions of the Lebor Gabla Érenn were historic fact
Well as interesting as that may be, it doesn't really support your claim
that "I was tought wrong". Where is your evidence?
[/quote:82d231c56f]
There's scant real life evidence for magicians, shape changers and
super human warriors
[quote:82d231c56f]*********Today, the term Celt is applied to
a speaker of a Celtic language.*************
It says it is *applied* to a speaker of a Celtic language. Not that it is
its only, one and true correct meaning. There are many terms that are
*applied* that may be incorrect. The term "Organic" is often applied to
inorganic substances like salt.
[/quote:82d231c56f]
Yes. That
[quote:82d231c56f]I'm prepared to share a linguistic definition of Celt with a cultural one.
There are several references to the linguistic view online from reputable
sites, but there seem to be more references to Celt being a 'people' or
'culture'. Examples of Celtic culture beyond language include advanced iron
working (superiour to Roman) and the use of liquid soap (more hygenic that
the Roman warmed oils).
Thus, I would use the quote below to summerise the entry.
**Celtic refers primarily to a cultural and linguistic family, not an ethnic
one**
But it's no skin off my nose whether you hold only to the linguistic
definition. The important thing is that you don't claim Celt as an
ethnicity, which I believe is the original point of this thread.
--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir
[/quote:82d231c56f]
--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Féachadóir |
| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Scríobh "Disco Stu" <disco_stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:
[..]
[quote:98ec8ef7de]*********Today, the term Celt is applied to
a speaker of a Celtic language.*************
It says it is *applied* to a speaker of a Celtic language. Not that it is
its only, one and true correct meaning. There are many terms that are
*applied* that may be incorrect. The term "Organic" is often applied to
inorganic substances like salt.
[/quote:98ec8ef7de]
Yes. That's wrong too
[quote:98ec8ef7de]I'm prepared to share a linguistic definition of Celt with a cultural one.
There are several references to the linguistic view online from reputable
sites, but there seem to be more references to Celt being a 'people' or
'culture'.
[/quote:98ec8ef7de]
There are all sorts of things online. "I saw it on a website" is
hardly credible evidence of anything, except that someone built a
website.
[quote:98ec8ef7de]Examples of Celtic culture beyond language include advanced iron
working (superiour to Roman) and the use of liquid soap (more hygenic that
the Roman warmed oils).
Thus, I would use the quote below to summerise the entry.
**Celtic refers primarily to a cultural and linguistic family, not an ethnic
one**
But it's no skin off my nose whether you hold only to the linguistic
definition. The important thing is that you don't claim Celt as an
ethnicity, which I believe is the original point of this thread.
[/quote:98ec8ef7de]
What
--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Des Higgins |
| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:39 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Ganton Pretz" <ganton.pretz@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:721a0b45.0403050405.534fc146@posting.google.com...
[quote:6b3f835d7d]diarmidlogan@yahoo.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message
news:<6d220a72.0402180712.72b6ecd5@posting.google.com>...
Jochen <jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:<4c8240d932jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com>...
In article
cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:
*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed
to
support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population can
be
free of colonial oppression?
Things are never your fault, are they?
How am I blaming anyone else for my own inability to speak Irish?
Anybody can learn at least one
other language with ease. All it takes is a bit of work. There is no
gift
involved.
I have tried to learn Irish and have been unsuccessful. Now what does
my inability to speak Irish have to do with the fact that the British
have been oppressing the indigenous Irish for centuries?
The indigenous Irish have been oppressing themselves since Irishness
began. I can barely walk five yards without being oppressed by
somebody or other.
I frequently ask them "are you indigenously Irish?" and if they say
"probably", I then put a tick on my little notebook.
This is what is recorded thus far:
Oppression by indigenously Irish (3,456)
Oppression by visiting Norwegian (1)
[/quote:6b3f835d7d]
I was in bed last weekend and there was a knock at the door and a bloke
called Tarje Gudmundsson said hello and asked to look around the house. He
has a little notebook and he was making notes. He seemed especially
interested in the contents of my toolkit and the TV. He also seemed
interested in teh wife. I asked what he was up to and he said oppression
had to be planned and applied for months in advance. That was it really.
It was not so bad yet but if he comes back, I am not sure what tack to take.
Maybe make small talk and pretend nothing is happening.
> Oppression by wild Gerbils (0) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Mike |
| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:36 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
This site and many others might answer your inferior Darwin logic being a
inferior Englishman yourself.
http://www.geocities.com/diarmidlogan/genetics.html
http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/000244.html
"Disco Stu" <disco_stu@springfield_dance_studio.com> wrote in message
news:Gt82c.34013$ws.3418740@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote:3b4776e3c9]
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:08ig405utj2qdrqvr5d9q5379gl7roegsj@4ax.com...
Scríobh Disco Stu <stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:
Then you were taught wrong.
I disagree, at least in terms of cultural anthropology. A linguist may
have
a diferent vew of course.
Don't fret it though, I was taught in primary school that the
invasions of the Lebor Gabla Érenn were historic fact
Well as interesting as that may be, it doesn't really support your claim
that "I was tought wrong". Where is your evidence?
*********Today, the term Celt is applied to
a speaker of a Celtic language.*************
It says it is *applied* to a speaker of a Celtic language. Not that it is
its only, one and true correct meaning. There are many terms that are
*applied* that may be incorrect. The term "Organic" is often applied to
inorganic substances like salt.
I'm prepared to share a linguistic definition of Celt with a cultural one.
There are several references to the linguistic view online from reputable
sites, but there seem to be more references to Celt being a 'people' or
'culture'. Examples of Celtic culture beyond language include advanced
iron
working (superiour to Roman) and the use of liquid soap (more hygenic that
the Roman warmed oils).
Thus, I would use the quote below to summerise the entry.
**Celtic refers primarily to a cultural and linguistic family, not an
ethnic
one**
But it's no skin off my nose whether you hold only to the linguistic
definition. The important thing is that you don't claim Celt as an
ethnicity, which I believe is the original point of this thread.
--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir
[/quote:3b4776e3c9] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Disco Stu |
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:01 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Féachadóir wrote:
[quote:6a14b07276]Scríobh "Disco Stu" <disco_stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:
I wasn't aware "Celt" was a term used in cultural anthropology.
[/quote:6a14b07276]
I recall it during my studies. The National Geographic also had an
interesting peice on the Celts. Came with a nice fold out wall poster
tracing the migrations Westward.
[quote:6a14b07276]
Don't fret it though, I was taught in primary school that the
invasions of the Lebor Gabla Érenn were historic fact
Well as interesting as that may be, it doesn't really support your claim
that "I was tought wrong". Where is your evidence?
There's scant real life evidence for magicians, shape changers and
super human warriors
[/quote:6a14b07276]
I ment, where is the Evidence that "I was tought wrong" in regard to The
Celts being a culture or a people. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Disco Stu |
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:32 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
O'Kiwi wrote:
[quote:adb548e477]I wouldn't say that it was "because I was Irish".
Nik
[/quote:adb548e477]
I thought you were Maori. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:25 pm
|
|