In article <cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:


*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed to
support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population can be
free of colonial oppression?


Things are never your fault, are they?

Anybody can learn at least one
other language with ease. All it takes is a bit of work. There is no gift
involved.

Jochen <jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:<4c8240d932jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com>...
In article
cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:


*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed
to support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population
can be free of colonial oppression?


Things are never your fault, are they?

How am I blaming anyone else for my own inability to speak Irish?

Anybody can learn at least one other language with ease. All it takes
is a bit of work. There is no gift involved.

I have tried to learn Irish and have been unsuccessful.

Now what does my
inability to speak Irish have to do with the fact that the British have
been oppressing the indigenous Irish for centuries?

Scríobh "Gerry Doyle" <alacrity@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net>:
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message

[...]
Yes. The Celts are the peoples of northern Europe who spoke -and
speak- Celtic languages. In essence, the non-Germanic Iron Age
northern European cultures.

There are Celtic in Ireland,
Britain, and France.

Aren't the central Europeans celtic of sorts too?

No, they have some Celtic ancestry. Depending on how you define
"central" Europe, most of them these days speak either Germanic or
Slavic languages.

But you just said that the Celts were people who used to speak celtic
languages, so it doesn't matter what they speak now, does it?

Whatever they speak now is what they are now, in a linguistic sense.
The French today are Romance speakers. The fact their Gaulish
ancestors were Celts doesn't make them Celts.

What do you
mean by 'some' celtic ancestry, if they have some, then they have celtic
ancestry, much as ourselves, surely?

I mean not all Central Europeans were Celts. Many spoke Germanic
languages, ferinstance.

Maybe not the same sort
of celts, but I'd have thought that the majority of celts, maybe not
so much
now but definitely in the past, were to be found all along the Danube
direction?

Central Europe is Celtic in the same way that Dublin is Viking, or
Marseilles is Greek. Its part of its history, not its present.

If present language is what counts, then is Ireland not Anglo-Saxon by
those
lights?

Mostly, yes. More accurately, they're anglophone.

lesser or greater degree Celtic speakers, but we are predominantly
English-speaking.

"FŽachad—ir" <FŽach@d.—ir> wrote in message
news:433530h82s9btthbercpbbj3h7d3gc1f8c@4ax.com...
Scr’obh Jochen <jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com>:
In article
cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:


*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed
to
support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population can be
free of colonial oppression?


Things are never your fault, are they? Anybody can learn at least one
other language with ease. All it takes is a bit of work. There is no
gift
involved.

Can't be that difficult. I know two year olds who can manage it.
...

Nice one:

It's believed small children are in fact hard wired* for easy language
acquisition.

IIRR its been demonstrated experimentally, that this appears to
deteriorate with non-use in later years.

michael adams

*so Chomsky claimed to have demonstated with his deep structures
at least

"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:q0s330pamd67hoqvrv1dtnhvl6f0pju6pa@4ax.com...
Scríobh "Gerry Doyle" <alacrity@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net>:
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message

[...]
Yes. The Celts are the peoples of northern Europe who spoke -and
speak- Celtic languages. In essence, the non-Germanic Iron Age
northern European cultures.

There are Celtic in Ireland,
Britain, and France.

Aren't the central Europeans celtic of sorts too?

No, they have some Celtic ancestry. Depending on how you define
"central" Europe, most of them these days speak either Germanic or
Slavic languages.

But you just said that the Celts were people who used to speak celtic
languages, so it doesn't matter what they speak now, does it?

Whatever they speak now is what they are now, in a linguistic sense.
The French today are Romance speakers. The fact their Gaulish
ancestors were Celts doesn't make them Celts.

You've lost me now. So celtic speaking French aren't celts,

while, say a
Nigerian bloke speaking Irish would be?

Surely the original poster was
asking about celtic peoples rather than celtic speakers?

As you know, the
gaelgoirs of Connemara predate the celts,

so you are saying that they become
celts by virtue of the language they speak? That just doesn't make sense to
me.

What do you
mean by 'some' celtic ancestry, if they have some, then they have celtic
ancestry, much as ourselves, surely?

I mean not all Central Europeans were Celts. Many spoke Germanic
languages, ferinstance.

Doesn't mean that they stopped being what they were, surely?

Maybe not the same sort
of celts, but I'd have thought that the majority of celts, maybe not
so much
now but definitely in the past, were to be found all along the Danube
direction?

Central Europe is Celtic in the same way that Dublin is Viking, or
Marseilles is Greek. Its part of its history, not its present.

If present language is what counts, then is Ireland not Anglo-Saxon by
those
lights?

Mostly, yes. More accurately, they're anglophone.

That's another thing altogether then, all sorts of people are anglophone,
which would seem to point up the fallacy of grouping them by language.

Our people are to a
lesser or greater degree Celtic speakers, but we are predominantly
English-speaking.

So do we change from celts and back again as the language waxes and wanes?

I don't know the answer to this, but I asked my boyfriend and this is what
he said. He said he wasn't 100% positive, but this is his best guess:

I'm no expert on this stuff, but as I understand it, the Irish are different
because they are more purely Celtic than the rest of the UK or Continental
Europe (both of which were Celtic at one time, but later shifted).

"Newsgroup Poster" <ng_poster@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afff3966.0311131048.30d77904@posting.google.com...
Honest question, folks --

Can anyone confirm or deny WITH "scholarly citation" the following
statements?

The Irish at one time were not viewed as "white" by the British (since
"race" is a sociological construct anyway, and the definition back
then was such that many spoke in all earnesty of categories like "the
German race", "the Irish race", etc.).

Nik, evidence from surveys of racism made in RoI and UK, independently
verifiable and based on published material, do not support your claim
that Ireland is less racist than England.

I refer to statistics sited by SIPTU of Amnesty International's 2001
survey, undertaken in June and July 2001, in association with
University College Dublin and the results of the BBC news survey of
racism (ICM research, survey of 1576 people aged 18 and over),
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/survey.stm

The AI survey solicits responses to certain questions from 600
respondents from members of ethnic minorities in a variety of places
in Ireland. http://www.siptu.ie/news/article.php?id=167

As you would expect from two different surveys, wording inevitably
differs between questions, and statistical presentation is formatted
slightly differently. However, where similar questions are asked there
is NO EVIDENCE from the actual ethnic minority respondents in both
respective countries to support you claim of one people being more
racist than the other.

Note the following -

AI Ireland survey (cited by SIPTU on
http://www.siptu.ie/news/article.php?id=167 ) reports that over 80%
of ethnic minorities say the govt is not doing enough to confront
racism.

Check the response to similar question in BBC survey "Has the recent
Labour Government done enough to deal with the
problem of racism." Response, Black: Yes 30%, No 47%, Don't Know 22%.
Asian: Yes 33%, No 44%, Don't Know 23%

AI Ireland survey (cited by SIPTU as above) reports that only 14% said
that Gardai take racist incidents seriously.

Check response to similar question in BBC survey question "Do you
think the police treat people from ethnic minorities fairly or
unfairly?"
Response, Black: Fairly 39%, Unfairly 37%, Don't Know 25%.
Asian: Fairly 47%, Unfairly 32%, Don't Know 21%

AI Ireland survey (cited by SIPTU as above) reports that almost four
out of five (i.e. high seventies per cent) from ethnic minorities have
been victims of racism while in Ireland (There is no breakdown between
verbal and physical provided).

Check response from BBC survey question "Have you personally
experienced verbal or racial abuse?"
Response, Verbal racial abuse,
Black: Yes 60%, No 38%, Don't Know 1%. Asian: Yes 59%, No 77%, Don't
Know 3%
Response, Physical racial abuse,
Black: Yes 18%, No 80%, Don't Know 2%. Asian: Yes 20%, No 77%, Don't
Know 3%

this reveals a REMARKABLY SIMILAR figure. (OK, you could argue that
the UK figure for experience of racism is less, taking into account
the overlap between verbal and racial abuse. i.e. respondents with an
experience of physical abuse may also have experienced verbal abuse in
the same attack, therefore saying yes to both questions but still only
referring to one racist incident. However, even ignoring this
possibility, a total arrived at simply by adding the percentages for
racial and verbal abuse provides responses in the high seventies
percent, i.e.just less than four out of five, very much the same as
the figure cited by SIPTU from the AI survey in Ireland).

Such surveys may err a few percent either way, but these independently
gathered figures, cited and verifiable, destroy your claim that
Ireland is less racist than England.

Check mate Nik.

Ah well, I could be wrong.

Nik
Now wait a minute... you know making any such statement goes against

Ah well, I could be wrong.

Nik

Now wait a minute... you know making any such statement goes against
every newsgroup rule, norm, convention, posting style etc, as well as
flying in the face of years of fiercely upheld newsgroup tradition...

fair play t'ye anyway

Scríobh Disco Stu <stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:

Then you were taught wrong.

Don't fret it though, I was taught in primary school that the
invasions of the Lebor Gabla Érenn were historic fact

*********Today, the term Celt is applied to
a speaker of a Celtic language.*************

--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir

Jochen <jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:<4c8240d932jochenTRAPlueg@freeuk.com>...
In article <cb91164f483cdfbd5184e6b6ebe49b9e.121266@mygate.mailgate.org>,
Diarmid Logan <diarmidlogan@yahoo.com> wrote:


*Sigh* So because I don't have a gift for languages I am not allowed to
support an united Ireland where the indigenous Irish population can be
free of colonial oppression?


Things are never your fault, are they?

How am I blaming anyone else for my own inability to speak Irish?


Anybody can learn at least one
other language with ease. All it takes is a bit of work. There is no gift
involved.

I have tried to learn Irish and have been unsuccessful. Now what does
my inability to speak Irish have to do with the fact that the British
have been oppressing the indigenous Irish for centuries?

"Newsgroup Poster" <ng_poster@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afff3966.0311131048.30d77904@posting.google.com...
Honest question, folks --

Can anyone confirm or deny WITH "scholarly citation" the following
statements?

The Irish at one time were not viewed as "white" by the British (since
"race" is a sociological construct anyway, and the definition back
then was such that many spoke in all earnesty of categories like "the
German race", "the Irish race", etc.).

The British Army as of as late as 1940 categorized recruits into five
races: Norman, Welsh, Scotch, Irish, and English?

The indigenous Irish have been oppressing themselves since Irishness
began. I can barely walk five yards without being oppressed by
somebody or other.

"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:08ig405utj2qdrqvr5d9q5379gl7roegsj@4ax.com...
Scríobh Disco Stu <stu@springfield_dance_studio.com>:

Then you were taught wrong.

I disagree, at least in terms of cultural anthropology. A linguist may have
a diferent vew of course.

Don't fret it though, I was taught in primary school that the
invasions of the Lebor Gabla Érenn were historic fact

Well as interesting as that may be, it doesn't really support your claim
that "I was tought wrong". Where is your evidence?

*********Today, the term Celt is applied to
a speaker of a Celtic language.*************

It says it is *applied* to a speaker of a Celtic language. Not that it is
its only, one and true correct meaning. There are many terms that are
*applied* that may be incorrect. The term "Organic" is often applied to
inorganic substances like salt.

I'm prepared to share a linguistic definition of Celt with a cultural one.
There are several references to the linguistic view online from reputable
sites, but there seem to be more references to Celt being a 'people' or
'culture'. Examples of Celtic culture beyond language include advanced iron
working (superiour to Roman) and the use of liquid soap (more hygenic that
the Roman warmed oils).

Thus, I would use the quote below to summerise the entry.

**Celtic refers primarily to a cultural and linguistic family, not an ethnic
one**

But it's no skin off my nose whether you hold only to the linguistic
definition. The important thing is that you don't claim Celt as an
ethnicity, which I believe is the original point of this thread.


--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir