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Williamknowsbest
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:17 pm
 
356,413 tons of hydrogen represent an energy equivalent of 8.3 million
barrels of oil. One third of what America uses each day. Used in
hydrogen powered fuel cells - assuming such can be made at reasonable
costs - this is enough hydrogen for the US. But we don't need to
convert the way the US uses fuel to install the infrastructure.
Hydrogen is flexible enough to be used to power our current
inefficient and less costly infrastructure. Once the hydrogen
infrastructure is in place, there will then be market incentive to
gain the three-fold improvement in efficiency fuel cell technology
with hydrogen represents.

II propose taking two large sunny regions of the US and populating
them with ultra-low-cost solar panels which I have created, and using
the hydrogen produced to

1) Power existing power plants and create existing forms of fuel
immediately
2) Once the infrastructure has been paid for, transition to a more
efficient fuel cell system
(once lower cost fuel cells have been produced in quantity)

The two lands I have studied include;

Newmont Mining's Nevada Operations comprise an area over 2 million
acres.
with 5 kWh/m2/da insolation

http://www.newmont.com/en/operations/nthamerica/nevada/index.asp

White Sands Missile Range compreses an area over 2 million acres
with 6 kWh/m2/da insolation

http://www.wsmr.army.mil/bd/where.html

Insolation figures are available here;

http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html#collector

A total area of 4 million acres with an average insolation for 5.5 kWh/
m2/da.

At 32 sq ft per 4x8 ft panel means that 5.4 billion of my panels may
be installed on these lands and will produce 17.8 trillion watt-hours
per day.

This 4 million acre solar collector field will produce 356,413 tons of
hydrogen gas from 3.2 million tons of water extracted from 1,000 wells
drilled on each site.

The hydrogen gas is communicated to a number of coal fired generators
that total 140 GW electrical generating capacity using 35 pipelines
each 20 inches (50 cm) in diameter and operating at 5,000 psi (350
bar). The pipes are equipped with a special polymer lining the
eliminates embrittlement for the life of the pipe.

In this way the burning of 1.32 milllion tons of coal is avoided each
day along with avoiding the production of 4.8 million tons of carbon-
dioxide each day.

The coal still comes to the sites of the coal fired plants but of the
total 213,847.8 tons of hydrrogen are burned in the plants and
142,565.2 tons are used to hydrogenate the 1.32 million tons of coal
to create 388.8 million gallons of gasoline, diesel fuel and jet fuel
each day. This is approximately half the consumption of liquid fuels
in the United States. These fuels are manufactured and refined at
the power plants as part of the hydrogen purchase agreement. The
fuels are sold to local remarketers at market rates.

Four solar panel factories, two located in each of the respective
states, each employing 690 perople, build up the area indicated in six
years. Once the area is fully populated with low cost solar panels
additional areas surrounding the sites may be added to the network.
In all, within a decade the United States may be totally independent
of all foreign sources of oil, and well situated to convert to
hydrogen for nearly all of its energy needs going forward.
 
Eeyore
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:06 pm
 
Williamknowsbest wrote:

[quote:b06fa37a11]356,413 tons of hydrogen represent an energy equivalent of 8.3 million
barrels of oil.
[/quote:b06fa37a11]
So ? That must mean that a barrel of oil has the energy equivalent of 44kg of
hydrgogen. Doesn't sound very convincing to me.

Barrel of oil equivalent (boe) = approx. 6.1 GJ (5.8 million Btu), equivalent to
1,700 kWh. "Petroleum barrel" is a liquid measure equal to 42 U.S. gallons (35
Imperial gallons or 159 liters); about 7.2 barrels oil are equivalent to one
tonne of oil (metric) = 42-45 GJ.
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

Hydrogen contains 0.458 MJ/kg.
http://www.probas.umweltbundesamt.de/php/themen.php?&prozessid=%7B56E5F6B7-D291-4F76-9C40-002255A8E771%7D&id=8925478912&step=4&search=&PHPSESSID=9d0d46c0ece9462b8fabc593b029efd9

So 1 barrel of oil is equivalent to ~ 13000 kg ( 13 tonnes) of hydrogen.

How did you make such a HUGE mistake ?

356,413 tonnes of hydrogen contain 1.63 .10^14 Joules

8.3 million barrels of oil contain 5.06 . 10^16 Joules.

You were out by a factor of 310 times !


[quote:b06fa37a11]One third of what America uses each day. Used in
hydrogen powered fuel cells - assuming such can be made at reasonable
costs
[/quote:b06fa37a11]
They can't.

Graham
 
Williamknowsbest
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:31 pm
 
On May 31, 7:06 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
[quote:4fc3e7804f]Williamknowsbest wrote:
356,413 tons of hydrogen represent an energy equivalent of 8.3 million
barrels of oil.

So ? That must mean that a barrel of oil has the energy equivalent of 44kg of
hydrgogen. Doesn't sound very convincing to me.
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]

A barrel of oil has 6.1 GJ of energy.
A kg of hydrogen has 142 MJ of energy
A metric ton has 1,000 kg of mass
1000 MJ = 1 GJ
A metric ton hydrogen therefore has 142 GJ of energy

The ratio 142 / 6.1 = 23.28
Multiply 356,413 by 23.28 to get 8,296,827 ~ 8.3 million

Which is what I said.

[quote:4fc3e7804f]Barrel of oil equivalent (boe) = approx. 6.1 GJ (5.8 million Btu), equivalent to
1,700 kWh.
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
I agree with the first number. The second numbrer sounds right since
1 BTU = 1057 Joules. There are 3.6 MJ per kWh - so, 6100 MJ / 3.6 MJ
= 1694.4 ~ 1700

RIGHT SO FAR!

[quote:4fc3e7804f]"Petroleum barrel" is a liquid measure equal to 42 U.S. gallons (35
Imperial gallons or 159 liters); about 7.2 barrels oil are equivalent to one
tonne of oil (metric) = 42-45 GJ.
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
Don't know what all this is for, but I use (because its in my
contracts) 7.33 barrels per metric ton. So, if all you're saying by
this is that 7.33 x 6.1 = 44.7 then I agree

I AGREE WITH THIS CALCULATION

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

Alright.

[quote:4fc3e7804f]Hydrogen contains 0.458 MJ/kg.

http://www.probas.umweltbundesamt.de/php/themen.php?&prozessid=%7B56E...
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
I think you've screwed up here... . WRONG! haha...

A kg of hydrogen contains 142 MJ HEATING VALUE. That's the energy
released when a kg of hydrogen is burned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating_value

Its listed here as 141.8 MJ/kg - which is slightly more accurate than
142 MJ/kg I gave - but still accurate when compared to your
outrageously WRONG figure of less than 1/2 MJ/kg - off by a factor of
300 or so. SORRY GRAHAM, YOU'RE WRONG HERE.

[quote:4fc3e7804f]So 1 barrel of oil is equivalent to ~ 13000 kg ( 13 tonnes) of hydrogen.
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
NOPE! NOT IN A MILLION YEARS - YOU'RE OFF BY A FACTOR OF NEARLY 300!

[quote:4fc3e7804f]How did you make such a HUGE mistake ?
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
*****I DIDN'T!*******

hahahahaha..

[quote:4fc3e7804f]356,413 tonnes of hydrogen contain 1.63 .10^14 Joules
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
No, 356,413 tonnes of hydrogen contain a heatiing value (which is what
we're comparing) of 50,539,363.4 GJ ~ 5e+16J and when divided by
6.1 GJ obtains TADA! 8,285,141.5 barrels equivalent ~ 8.3 million
barrels - WHICH I GAVE IN THE BEGINNING

[quote:4fc3e7804f]8.3 million barrels of oil contain 5.06 . 10^16 Joules.
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
Yes, WHICH IS WHAT 356,413 metric tons of hydrogen contain.

[quote:4fc3e7804f]You were out by a factor of 310 times !
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
NO ***YOU*** WERE OUT BY A FACTOR OF 310 TIMES

[quote:4fc3e7804f]One third of what America uses each day. Used in
hydrogen powered fuel cells - assuming such can be made at reasonable
costs

They can't.
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
YOU ARE AS RIGHT ABOUT FUEL CELL COSTS NOT COMING DOWN AS YOU ARE
ABOUT HOW MUCH HEAT YOU GET WHEN YOU BURN A TONNE OF HYDROGEN - NAMELY
- NOT RIGHT AT ALL! HAHAHAHA!

[quote:4fc3e7804f]Graham
[/quote:4fc3e7804f]
Yeah, I know who you are dude.
 
 
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