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Science Forum Index » Electronics Forum » I'm popping MOSFETS....linear derating factor involved?
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| John |
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:16 am |
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Quote: You use a belleville washer (with a flat washer), "bottom it out" and
continue to tighten until the rated torque is reached?
no, spring washers should never be flattened out. pick a belleville that
gives 50-75% compression at the rated torque of the bolt.
Ahhh...OK, that makes sense.
Quote: I'm thinking that one of my tests needs to be with plain ol' silicone
grease, just to get the case temperature as a benchmark for the other
tests.
I rather like John Larkins approach of a well-anodised
heatsink/insulator. sometimes less is more
You read my mind. I'm pretty sure I'll be going the hard anodized
route for this one (instead of using insulating pads) but I'll still
need a grease of some type between the FETs and the anodized sink.
Quote: thats a good sign then. I only ask because of a nightmarish 2 weeks a
decade or so ago - crux of story is mech eng threw out off-tool heatsink
sample, a tech fished it out of the bin to sell for scrap, another tech
used it to build a prototype, prototype mysteriously failed, quite
repeatably, for 2 weeks.
nowadays I always check surface finish and coplanarity - usually with a
combination of eyeometry and a straight edge.
Ouch, I can just picture you guys absolutely pulling your hair out for
those 2 weeks.
I just tried mounting two of the blown FETs via screw and flat washer,
heating the sink up to phase-change the compound and then popping off
the FETs to check how well the compound spread. It is definitely a
much thinner layer of compound when screw mounted (almost
non-existent) and looks to be pretty even along the length of the
TO-247 body. Unless I can find clips with 100lb. of pressure, I'm
sticking with screws for this application (or a screw-mounted bar
pressing down on the FETs).
John
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| Terry Given |
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:16 am |
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John wrote:
Quote: You use a belleville washer (with a flat washer), "bottom it out" and
continue to tighten until the rated torque is reached?
no, spring washers should never be flattened out. pick a belleville that
gives 50-75% compression at the rated torque of the bolt.
Ahhh...OK, that makes sense.
I'm thinking that one of my tests needs to be with plain ol' silicone
grease, just to get the case temperature as a benchmark for the other
tests.
I rather like John Larkins approach of a well-anodised
heatsink/insulator. sometimes less is more :)
You read my mind. I'm pretty sure I'll be going the hard anodized
route for this one (instead of using insulating pads) but I'll still
need a grease of some type between the FETs and the anodized sink.
thats a good sign then. I only ask because of a nightmarish 2 weeks a
decade or so ago - crux of story is mech eng threw out off-tool heatsink
sample, a tech fished it out of the bin to sell for scrap, another tech
used it to build a prototype, prototype mysteriously failed, quite
repeatably, for 2 weeks.
nowadays I always check surface finish and coplanarity - usually with a
combination of eyeometry and a straight edge.
Ouch, I can just picture you guys absolutely pulling your hair out for
those 2 weeks.
oh yes. it was just after we fixed a subtle gatedrive problem, so we
were pretty paranoid about blowups. Eventually the mech guy wandered
past as another tech was dismantling it, picked up the heatsink and said
"what the fuck is this doing here". Half an hour later, we had the drive
up and running, and it stayed that way.
Quote:
I just tried mounting two of the blown FETs via screw and flat washer,
heating the sink up to phase-change the compound and then popping off
the FETs to check how well the compound spread. It is definitely a
much thinner layer of compound when screw mounted (almost
non-existent) and looks to be pretty even along the length of the
TO-247 body. Unless I can find clips with 100lb. of pressure, I'm
sticking with screws for this application (or a screw-mounted bar
pressing down on the FETs).
John
the latter is a nice approach, a good compromise wrt parts count.
Cheers
Terry |
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| Joseph2k |
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:23 pm |
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John wrote:
Quote: Are you sure nothing's oscillating?
I can't find anything more than 5mV of noise or voltage variation
anywhere with the scope. I tried grounding the probe to both the main
supply ground and at op-amp gnd (and measuring around). Even when
that noise on the input to the op-amp, the cap on its output seems to
slow everything down enough to not let the noise affect the MOSET's
gate voltage.
My (possibly) exceeding the total dissipation rating of the FET isn't
a possible cause for the popping of FETs too? Still don't know if my
calculations and assumptions about linear derating factors are right.
John
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One thing i can tell you for sure, running your devices even near power
dissipation limits severely degrade lifetime. Part of the issue is that
the junction to case thermal path degrades under those conditions.
--
JosephKK
Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens.
--Schiller |
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| John |
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:03 am |
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Quote: Perhaps the mod below.
12V
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. 1K
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. +------, +5V ,-----+----- LOAD+
. | | | LT1013 | |
. 1.25V POT <-+--R2--+-----|+\ D |
. Ref | | | | >--+--R6-- G |
. -+------+ | | ,--|-/ | S |
. | | | | === C1 | |
. | | | | | | |
. +--|--R3--|--+----|---+---R5----+ |
. | | | | | |
. | | | | R7 |
. | | | | | |
. | | '--R4---+-------------+-----|-+--- LOAD-
. | | | |
. | | | |
. | | +5V ,-----+ |
. | | | | |
. | +--R2--+-----|+\ D |
. | | | >--+--R6-- G |
. | | ,--|-/ | S |
. | | | | === C1 | |
. | | | | | | |
. +-----R3--|--+----|---+---R5----+ |
. | | | | |
. | | | R7 |
. | | | | |
. | '--R4---+-------------+-------+
| _____________
SPCO o | |-------LOAD+
Switch /------------|Voltage sense|
o/ o |_____________|-------LOAD-
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Vref--+ +--LOW-LVL GND
If the voltage across LOAD+/- is below a certain level
then the bottom ends of the R3's are switched to Vref.
Could be a relay, or solid state.
I like it...thanks Tony!
I never cease to be amazed at how logical and simple (and often very
obvious, in hindsight) a solution can be when someone else points it
out. Racked my brains on this one. :-)
John
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| Tony Williams |
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:45 am |
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In article <essh22986hrc48kuuocq9faaoa2hcul0sa@4ax.com>,
John <jmuchow@SPAMMENOTcamlight.com> wrote:
Quote: I wasn't able to figure out how the 208mV figure was derived but
[snip]
Abs Max opamp +ve input voltage is when the pot is
right at the top and is..... 1.25*R4/(R2+R4),
where R2= 49.9k and R4= 10k.
--
Tony Williams. |
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| John |
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:01 am |
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Quote: I wasn't able to figure out how the 208mV figure was derived but
[snip]
Abs Max opamp +ve input voltage is when the pot is
right at the top and is..... 1.25*R4/(R2+R4),
where R2= 49.9k and R4= 10k.
Ack...of course.
And I KNEW that my max was around 0.2V, I designed that in! Amazing
how I can zero in on something like "208mV" and lose the big picture.
<deep sigh>
Thanks Tony,
John
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| legg |
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:07 pm |
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On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 05:03:28 GMT, John <jmuchow@SPAMMENOTcamlight.com>
wrote:
Or simply power the reference from the load.
RL |
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| John |
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:52 am |
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Quote: Or simply power the reference from the load.
Hmm...almost too good an idea to even consider. :-)
Trouble is, the load can go down to 0.5V and I haven't seen any 1%, or
better, voltage references that can work with an input voltage that
low. I only need 0.2V out so there is "room" for a reference to work
there though.
Time for another web search!
John
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| Tony Williams |
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:39 am |
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In article <nk9j22tgtqm61rp32u9kpgvtm4o1i8gh77@4ax.com>,
John <jmuchow@SPAMMENOTcamlight.com> wrote:
Quote: I was thinking that instead of biasing the op-amp inputs with the
output of the comparator that I could essentially switch Vref (to
the servo loops) on/off by using the output of the comparator as
the source for the voltage reference.
Clamping or switching the Vref (even down to 0v) is
not guaranteed to turn all outputs OFF.
The LM324 has a typical input offset voltage of 3mV.
Even if Vref is an actual 0v there could still be
some opamps whose offset is in the wrong direction
and therefore 'think' they are receiving a 3mV input.
3mV is equivalent to a 300mA output current demand.
Sounds tiny compared to 12.5A, but the MOSFET has no
drain supply, so it has no way of sinking even 300mA
through the current shunt. With no feedback voltage
from the current shunt the opamp will *still* turn
the MOSFET fully ON.
Whatever scheme is used must guarantee that the -ve
input of the opamp is at least 3(5)mV more positive
than the +ve input. This means either driving the
Vref negative, or spending the components to lift
the -ve input.
--
Tony Williams. |
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| John |
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:47 am |
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Quote: I notice that this thing is manually adjusted. So why not add an
on/off switch?
I do have an on/off switch but any user of this load would have to
remember to turn the unit off before disconnecting the battery and
remember to connect the battery before turning it on. That rule will
last about a week with the guys around here. :-)
I did try turning the power to the op-amps on/off with the output of
the comparator and it works very well when the battery is
connected/disconnected cleanly. But, when the battery contacts scrape
(and the power goes on for a few uS, then off, repeating this a bunch
of times), there are big voltage spikes on the FET gates and huge
current surges thru the FETs. I couldn't find any way to slow the
system down that would have it essentially debounce the battery
connecting/disconnecting.
Quote: You'd still want some kind of effective pull-down to prevent connector
surges through load application of dV/dT, through crss. The 1K
resistors currently isolate the gates - perhaps a pnp transistor in
there somewhere would do it.
I really didn't understand this but it sounds like what I was just
talking about? That is, connector noise leading to lots of big dV/dT
spikes and as the spikes reach the gates the current spikes like crazy
too?
I would add a transistor in line the gate to be turned off when the
battery was disconnected? The switching would have to be very slow
though to provide a debounce function.
Thanks for your help RL!
John
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