I think one of my hens has lice,they are around the vent area.The critters
are visable and a orange/brown color ,fast moving and look like the shape
of ear wigs but obviously loads smaller .I have got Gold label
lice/flee/mite and general critter powder.I gave my two hens there first
dusting today.When should they be clear,this may be the reason why one of
the hens comb is floppy and paler?
thanks keith

"Keith Kent" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:KiHFh.44943$Da4.24172@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
I think one of my hens has lice,they are around the vent area.The critters
are visable and a orange/brown color ,fast moving and look like the shape
of ear wigs but obviously loads smaller .I have got Gold label
lice/flee/mite and general critter powder.I gave my two hens there first
dusting today.When should they be clear,this may be the reason why one of
the hens comb is floppy and paler?
thanks keith

Not heard of either of these treatments which means nothing but its best
to use really effective treatments
If you do not have confidence in your vet who would be the first port of
call for bugs as they can identify them accurately as to species which
affects treatment I would strongly suggest that you contact
http://www.interhatch.com/ and chat to them
They are very reputable

It may well take more than a bit of powder to make them clear
You will need to treat all the places they can get re-contaminated
And a pale comb is a sign of anaemia

If you can see them easily -- they have lots
Get something that is properly specific.

Jill

Hi Jill,Hopefully i can nip it in the bud before there is a infestation

The bugs only appear on the older of my two hens around vent area only.I
have only had the hens since last saturday from a poultry farm.

do something i usually go for it and research/read .So thought with them
coming from a place were there are lots of hens i would give them the once
over.I think there will be lots of people out there with bugs affecting
there birds and don`t know it/never will.

Or even never even thought about

it.Here is a link to the Get Rid by gold label i am using for those who
may be interested,i will post how effective it is in a couple of weeks.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RED-MITE-LICE-FLEAS-Killer-Organic-Powder-by-Gold-Label_W0QQitemZ180079063395QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16237QQcmdZViewItem

"Keith Kent" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:JgIFh.41298$Fm2.31985@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

Hi Jill,Hopefully i can nip it in the bud before there is a infestation

If you can see them -- it already IS
Sorry but its best to be realistic and honest

The bugs only appear on the older of my two hens around vent area only.I
have only had the hens since last saturday from a poultry farm.

Then they won't have been with any other birds on your property, will they
?

Me being me when i
do something i usually go for it and research/read .So thought with them
coming from a place were there are lots of hens i would give them the
once over.I think there will be lots of people out there with bugs
affecting there birds and don`t know it/never will.

Not if they are half decent bird keepers
Its one of the jobs we all do -- checking and treating if necessary

Or even never even thought about

I doubt it and certainly from the mail I get I really doubt it
There will always be a minority of irresponsible animal keepers [and
parents!].

it.Here is a link to the Get Rid by gold label i am using for those who
may be interested,i will post how effective it is in a couple of weeks.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RED-MITE-LICE-FLEAS-Killer-Organic-Powder-by-Gold-Label_W0QQitemZ180079063395QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16237QQcmdZViewItem

Contact Interhatch
They will provide a proper species specific treatment
Mites and lice are different within species let alone between species
And the treatments for mites are different from those for lice
This is a similar but weaker [and therefore cheaper] version of things
like Poultry Shield. PS can be very effective against such infections
There are others that are more specific for certain species of bugs.
Interhatch are much more experienced in recognising which is which from
amateur descriptions. A vet would be able to at least identify the
accurate species which would allow you to hit them hard and effectively
Without experience and a microscope you cannot do so
What about all the eggs that may have been carried in - your treatment
says nothing about treating the eggs

Your birds are already showing symptoms of potential severe infection -
droopy pale comb

Good luck

Jill

Its one of the jobs we all do -- checking and treating if necessary

Or even never even thought about

I doubt it and certainly from the mail I get I really doubt it
There will always be a minority of irresponsible animal keepers [and
parents!].

Hi Jill,
if the powder kills mites do we have to worry about the eggs as they
will hatch and die with the treatment completing the cycle?

I don`t know about ALL do and what is [parents]?

The people you refer to above are not the ones we need to worry about

,it is farmers who neglect there birds for profit on a massive scale
ie battery hens which should be outlawed.

chicken in two/three years they are of no use to the farmer.

.On the other
hand organic/free range means they think they have the right to rip
you off.

change,

This cruelty
is most unlikely to happen for someone keepimg back yard chickens
,most will be living a life of luxury compared to the other short
life they could have.

I agree that is one other trigger that affects most backyard birds but
even when provided with light free range birds still cannot match their
sisterhood inside

Why does having light all year around cause stress?

- they have to cope with constantly changing weather and insufficient
shelter
Nonsense. They have plenty of shelter in the same houses they are shut
away in at night. Sometimes, they simply choose to stay outside in all
weathers.

Spending time too close and personal with other birds is stressful
Everyone knows that periods of prolonged confinement caused problems

- they have to cope with high volume, low nutrition food
Like layers pellets?

No - like bugs, grains, seeds, kitchen scraps, greens, etc
Many of the people who describe their birds as having been rescued and
having such a wonderful life outside do not just feed layers ration
I have this "conversation" daily with many emails I recieve - one today
about birds with probable feather pecking due to poor nutrition yet the
email was full of descriptors like treats, running free etc. Folks are
genuine about what they think is what chickens need. Often misguidedly

Yes - but you are a sentient being
Anthropomorphism has no place is good animal behaviour studies

You can have birds with acres of range and a big house still being
dominant and bullying
Any damage on a bird from any cause will be pounced upon swiftly
(snip)

But if every other household was to keep a few pet chickens, there
would no need to import eggs since demand would go down.

And the disease in the national poultry flock would be horrendous - as
would the humans.

go to any SE Asian country

Go back to the 1950's when the mortality rate for most flocks was anything
up to 50% even in the good ones

Mycoplasmans; Salmonelas, there is a never ending list of trouble

Let alone the fact that its totally impractical

Designed is a good word. Cutting off their beaks so they
can't do it is one way of designing them. Filling them so
full of meds they don't get sick under unnatural conditions
is another.

"Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45e87e74$0$8745$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
I agree that is one other trigger that affects most backyard birds
but even when provided with light free range birds still cannot
match their sisterhood inside

correlation is not causation. there are multiple factors to consider.

Why does having light all year around cause stress?

perhaps "stress" isn't the right word - but if a hen is designed to
take a break from laying in winter for physiological reasons & is
denied that break, some people would not approve of that, and while i
might not agree i'd not dispute their disapproval, either.

- they have to cope with constantly changing weather and
insufficient shelter
Nonsense. They have plenty of shelter in the same houses they are
shut away in at night. Sometimes, they simply choose to stay
outside in all weathers.

Spending time too close and personal with other birds is stressful
Everyone knows that periods of prolonged confinement caused problems

i'm not sure what you are arguing here

- are you not claiming that
battery birds are kept as stress-free as possible, while also
allowing (unspoken) that they are in (ahem) "periods of prolonged
confinement"? so, which is it?

undoubtedly battery birds' keepers try to keep their environment as
stress-free as possible _considering the circumstances_, but it can't
be without stress, because it's unnatural to their nature to be
confined thusly.

my chooks stay outside for as long as possible, in all weather except
when it's storming so hard they're actually getting drenched to the
skin. in the type of rain that drives me inside without thinking
twice, they stay outside. when we had a day of 42degrees-in-the-shade
heat, they stayed outside (in the dappled shade of trees, not in the
total shade of their house or outdoor shelter). they just like to be
outside, & that's all there is to it

of laying or what's (purportedly) "good for them", they operate
according to what they naturally prefer,

i put it to you that chickens know what they need.

laying pellets may be nutritionally balanced in strict technical
terms - yet ime it's not exactly their favourite food. this would
indicate that, perhaps or perhaps not nutritionally, there's
something "missing" they go looking for if they can. (my hens refuse
outright to eat it if it's in pellet form, even - i give it as a
mash). it may be textural, behavioural, or related to some other
factor.

one very small example - i reported here featherlessness amongst my
hens from bullying while they were caged for auction (and in one
case, bullying in general). i just couldn't get any improvement until
i started giving them extra protein - above & beyond laying pellets -
every single day. sometimes it's meat & sometimes it's blood-&-bone
meal & sometimes cooked soybeans & sometimes milk... but it's made a
massive difference.

Any damage on a bird from any cause will be pounced upon swiftly
(snip)

well of course it's not!! it depends on the bird, its place in the
hierarchy, and the tendencies of its companions!! a remark like that
is nonsensical because we can observe it's not true.

But if every other household was to keep a few pet chickens, there
would no need to import eggs since demand would go down.

And the disease in the national poultry flock would be horrendous -
as would the humans.

oh for goodness' sake. i can't even begin to fathom this continual and
relentless theme of "biosecurity",

but beyond that, a few points:

caring for livestock is mostly commonsense

go to any SE Asian country

why?

Go back to the 1950's when the mortality rate for most flocks was
anything up to 50% even in the good ones

a quarter of a percent is still "up to 50%", so this is meaningless.

Mycoplasmans; Salmonelas, there is a never ending list of trouble

by my reading, the list of trouble is a great deal more limited than,
say, common human diseases... in fact, it's astonishingly brief...
but let's not quibble.

Let alone the fact that its totally impractical

clearly, only people interested in keeping <animal x> actually do so.

(snip)
there is NEVER any one "right way" to do _anything_. if there was,

correlation is not causation. there are multiple factors to consider.

I agree
And stress is not always obvious
My point really is that most declarations of what is best for chickens is
very anthropomorphic.

Designed is a very good word
That is what the chicken is now -- designed by Man. It bears little
resemblance to anything "original" or wild. And its naive to consider it
so. (snip)

undoubtedly battery birds' keepers try to keep their environment as
stress-free as possible _considering the circumstances_, but it can't
be without stress, because it's unnatural to their nature to be
confined thusly.

Using that arguement

in temperate small gardens; its unnatural to be housed and washed for
shows.
EVERYTHING about poultry keeping has been "unnatural" [or man managed] for
over 300 years

they do not think in terms
of laying or what's (purportedly) "good for them", they operate
according to what they naturally prefer,

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"

No - it simply means that they do not "think" like humans do.
Their innate ability is to provide themselves with sufficient to maintain
themselves. Nothing more.

Yes -- but then domestic layers ration is still relatively low in protein
in comparison to that of commercial birds.

Blood and bonemeal has long been known to be a superb tonic for birds.
Its a real shame we are no longer allowed to use it

An open wound is rarely ignored by chickens

oh for goodness' sake. i can't even begin to fathom this continual and
relentless theme of "biosecurity",

Well - living in a country which has just had a very real incidence of
Avian Influenza due entirely to a serious lapse in biosecurity we take it
very seriously
We have been miraculously lucky that it seems that it was contained and,
so far, there is no evidence that the virus got into the wild bird
population. If it had, given the location and the very high density of
poultry of all management types in the immediate area the results would
have been devastating

caring for livestock is mostly commonsense

From my experience dealing with peoples questions day in day out I have to
say that you are naive.

go to any SE Asian country

why?

To see what conditions birds live in when owned by a majority of a
population as a backyard entity. They would not come up to what would be
acceptible here.

Go back to the 1950's when the mortality rate for most flocks was
anything up to 50% even in the good ones

a quarter of a percent is still "up to 50%", so this is meaningless.

Sorry I was in a hurry to complete the post -- what I meant was averaging
around 50%

But the equation of home egg production, which was the point being
discussed, only works when the overriding majority do so. Otherwise you
have businesses farming for those who don't and you get back to the
situation we are in very quickly

Its my training -- I am always looking around any subject -- There are
always at least 2 sides to any question and if you look hard enough you
can usually find more than that

My point really is that most declarations of what is best for
chickens is very anthropomorphic.

i'm sure some of them are awfully so not sure about "most".

the people report that
eventually the battery hens begin to exhibit "normal hen" behaviour
based on no experience or observation.

undoubtedly battery birds' keepers try to keep their environment as
stress-free as possible _considering the circumstances_, but it
can't be without stress, because it's unnatural to their nature to
be confined thusly.

Using that arguement

i'm not arguing either <g
indeed

It is unnatural to have pompoms; Its unnatural to live
in temperate small gardens; its unnatural to be housed and washed for
shows.
EVERYTHING about poultry keeping has been "unnatural" [or man
managed] for over 300 years

certainly. i suppose it depends on where the line is drawn - of what
is an acceptable trade-off to both species (which only one species
actually negotiates ,

as it were. i wish my hens could have a
really huuuuuge enclosure, but it's not possible at this time. so
they have _enough_ room (well, more than enough, really), and that's
fine. of course it's not "natural". but that's the line there, for me
(i live in a house even though that's not "natural"). i wouldn't find
a hen who can't see because of feathering to be "acceptable", nor
would i like to be washing and showing them. we just have to
negotiate what is acceptable amongst ourselves, don't we.

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"

they have no sense of reason. they can think to some extent, because
they can be trained by operant conditioning. but my point was they
have the ability to "prefer" one thing over another.

Well - living in a country which has just had a very real incidence
of Avian Influenza due entirely to a serious lapse in biosecurity we
take it very seriously
We have been miraculously lucky that it seems that it was contained
and, so far, there is no evidence that the virus got into the wild
bird population. If it had, given the location and the very high
density of poultry of all management types in the immediate area the
results would have been devastating

i'd say again - don't you think there's something _else_ awry, not
related to imports? something there appears (to a disinterested party
on the other side of the world) to be seriously awry because outbreak
after outbreak in what are _supposed_ to be "good" (biosecure??)
circumstances is a warning that there is something (else) wrong.

i'd say that you deal with people who have dumb questions or lack
commonsense, and that is precisely why they are asking you.

many things in s.e. asia wouldn't be acceptable here, & animal
husbandry methods are but a part of that. it doesn't mean that s.e.
asia is a living example of why people shouldn't have backyard
chooks.

progress does not mean interested parties shouldn't have backyard
hens

i'm just not understanding you. i very much doubt anything like 50% of
households in australia have hens any more, but we don't import eggs
whatsoever.

of course. but that means don't be so rigid about the "right" way,

Amy Blankenship wrote:


Designed is a good word. Cutting off their beaks so they can't do it
is one way of designing them. Filling them so full of meds they
don't get sick under unnatural conditions is another.

No
The designing is the breeding / selection that has been going on ever
since Man decided that jungle fowl were useful and started to manipulate
their gene pool for their own use and inclination
While in the last 50 years the design has accelerated in terms of
production hybrids probably the most widespread manipulators were the
Victorians who created and stabilized the 300 plus breeds/ colours/ shapes
and sizes that make up the chicken world now

I don't know what things are like in your country but in the UK beak
trimming is due to be banned in 4 years time and is closely regulated

Medication is expensive and not cost effective - management and
preventative methods such as vaccines are preferred in this country

I do not disagree that there will be bad practitionners in every industry
but that should not mean the good ones should be condemned out of hand
They provide the majority of the world with good nutritious food at an
ever decreasing income.

0tterbot wrote:
stuff snipped

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"

they have no sense of reason. they can think to some extent, because
they can be trained by operant conditioning. but my point was they
have the ability to "prefer" one thing over another.

Hmmm- prefer means "To choose or be in the habit of choosing as more
desirable or as having more value"
How is a chicken able to evaluate the cost / benefits of any activity?

"Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45eab9ad$0$8733$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
0tterbot wrote:
stuff snipped

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"

they have no sense of reason. they can think to some extent, because
they can be trained by operant conditioning. but my point was they
have the ability to "prefer" one thing over another.

Hmmm- prefer means "To choose or be in the habit of choosing as more
desirable or as having more value"
How is a chicken able to evaluate the cost / benefits of any
activity?

My chickens demonstrate every day that they prefer the bit of scratch
I throw in their pen to the continued opportunity to eat fresh grass,
scratch in the dirt, and pick up whatever bugs are on offer. Just
_how_ they make that determination and whether or not that is a
_valid_ determination is kind of irrelevant. It is obvious some sort
of determination is made.

"Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45e9bcac$0$8733$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
Amy Blankenship wrote:


Designed is a good word. Cutting off their beaks so they can't do
it is one way of designing them. Filling them so full of meds they
don't get sick under unnatural conditions is another.

No
The designing is the breeding / selection that has been going on ever
since Man decided that jungle fowl were useful and started to
manipulate their gene pool for their own use and inclination
While in the last 50 years the design has accelerated in terms of
production hybrids probably the most widespread manipulators were the
Victorians who created and stabilized the 300 plus breeds/ colours/
shapes and sizes that make up the chicken world now

I don't know what things are like in your country but in the UK beak
trimming is due to be banned in 4 years time and is closely regulated

I never realized before you don't use periods (full stops). How
odd...

Anyway, here there is little compassion for livestock, only profit.

Beak trimming is very common in commercial operations.

Medication is expensive and not cost effective - management and
preventative methods such as vaccines are preferred in this country

I've been able to find only one hatchery that offers a coccidiosis
vaccine, and the vaccine does not seem to be something a small flock
owner can purchase.

between medicated and nonmedicated feed is definitely worth it...if
you can find nonmedicated chick feed that won't nullify your vaccine.

I do not disagree that there will be bad practitionners in every
industry but that should not mean the good ones should be condemned
out of hand They provide the majority of the world with good
nutritious food at an ever decreasing income.

Maybe in the UK in Europe. I think that the cruel practices that are
accepted here are probably more typical of what you'd see in much of
the rest of the world. You also should realize that here, chicken
farmers are more or less indentured servants to large corporations.
Regardless of their own intentions, they're told what to do and when
to do it, and they are so deeply in debt they have to.