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Science Forum Index » Physics - Particle Forum » Size of the Electron
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| Epud |
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:23 pm |
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As we probably all know the electron has a mass, charge and spin as
some of its main properties. However at the same time, as far as I have
been informed, the electron is considered to be a point like particle
without a diameter! Does the electron have no size what so ever? If
yes, then how can you have mass located at an infinitely small point?
I have read other places that experiments show that the size of the
electron is < 10^{-18}m.
If there is someone here that could explain me the whole "size of the
electron" paradox I would be thankful.
Epud |
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| FrediFizzx |
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:58 pm |
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"Epud" <paultheastronomer@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165260212.108906.24340@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote: As we probably all know the electron has a mass, charge and spin as
some of its main properties. However at the same time, as far as I
have
been informed, the electron is considered to be a point like particle
without a diameter! Does the electron have no size what so ever? If
yes, then how can you have mass located at an infinitely small point?
I have read other places that experiments show that the size of the
electron is < 10^{-18}m.
If there is someone here that could explain me the whole "size of the
electron" paradox I would be thankful.
This has been an ongoing debate that might last forever.  IMHO, it
will only be resolvable by realizing that quantum objects such as an
electron are both point-like and extended objects due to quantum
"vacuum" and relativistic effects. Does not an electron have a "static"
field that extends to infinity? Effectively, the "static" field
probably is lost in the noise of the quantum "vacuum" at much shorter
ranges. See Milonni's "The Quantum Vacuum: An Intro. to Quantum
Electrodynamics" sect. 11.5 "How Big is an Electron" for more info.
Now about the mass... An electron by itself has no mass. It gains its
mass by interaction with the Higgs field as do all elementary fermions.
And IMHO, that in turn allows for its extended "localized" quantum
field. A rough heuristic can be obtained by expanding the Compton
wavelength equation in cgs units.
m_e = [e*sqrt(hbar*c)/w_C^2][(2pi/lambda_C)^3*1/sqrt(alpha)]
Where m_e is mass of the electron, e is electron charge, sqrt(hbar*c) is
quantum vacuum charge, w_C is electron Compton frequency, lambda_C is
electron compton wavelength and alpha is the fine structure constant.
The second bracketed term is 1/volume so we can see that we have an
interaction between the electron and charge of the "vacuum" in a certain
volume of space. Consistent with the Higgs field concept.
FrediFizzx
Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com |
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| Epud |
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:34 pm |
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Thanks allot FrediFizzix!
I have not studied the Higgs field concept yet and it was very
interesting what you said about the electron having no mass but that it
gains mass by the interaction with the Higgs field like the other
fermions.
I will look into this as soon as my exams are over.
Paul |
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| FrediFizzx |
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:52 pm |
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| PD |
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:29 pm |
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On Dec 4, 1:23 pm, "Epud" <paultheastrono...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: As we probably all know the electron has a mass, charge and spin as
some of its main properties. However at the same time, as far as I have
been informed, the electron is considered to be a point like particle
without a diameter! Does the electron have no size what so ever? If
yes, then how can you have mass located at an infinitely small point?
I have read other places that experiments show that the size of the
electron is < 10^{-18}m.
If there is someone here that could explain me the whole "size of the
electron" paradox I would be thankful.
Epud
You have in your mind that mass occupies volume. However, it turns out
these are independent parameters to a large extent.
In the macroscopic world, a substance that has mass also has volume and
vice versa. But every instance of such substances are composites, made
up of smaller objects. And in fact, the volume has more to do with the
range of the interaction that binds the smaller objects together. The
*volume* occupied by a composite object is determined by the
interaction, not so much the mass involved.
There is no *fundamental* object that we're aware of that has volume,
even though it may have mass.
PD |
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| Vert |
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:56 pm |
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Epud wrote:
Quote: As we probably all know the electron has a mass, charge and spin as
some of its main properties. However at the same time, as far as I have
been informed, the electron is considered to be a point like particle
without a diameter! Does the electron have no size what so ever? If
yes, then how can you have mass located at an infinitely small point?
I have read other places that experiments show that the size of the
electron is < 10^{-18}m.
If there is someone here that could explain me the whole "size of the
electron" paradox I would be thankful.
Epud
VERGON
It often happens that the truth is much simpler than had been supposed.
The answer to your question (and much more) lies in the pages of my
thesis that can be found on line in the General Science Journal at
http://www.wbabin.net
Go to LIST OF AUTHORS and click on Vertner Vergon. The title of the
monograph
is On the Quantum as a Physical Entity.
The electron extends to a huge diameter --- but its density diminishes
as the fourth power of the radius. The density is greater, of course,
at the center. And the center is considered the point. At the outer
region, the density is so rare that there is no discernable surface --
and therefore no volume. I have established a so-called "effective"
radius which is the radius at the center. See what you think of it.
Note that in calculating the movement of astronomical bodies, the mass
is considered as all at the center. That doesn't mean that the bodies
are mass points. |
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| Autymn D. C. |
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:57 pm |
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Epud wrote:
Quote: As we probably all know the electron has a mass, charge and spin as
some of its main properties. However at the same time, as far as I have
been informed, the electron is considered to be a point like particle
without a diameter! Does the electron have no size what so ever? If
yes, then how can you have mass located at an infinitely small point?
Disregard Fred's "quantum vacuum charge" gibberish. It's not even
charge at all, and he doesn't grasp how to represent units with causes.
The "point-like"ness of the elèctròn is a confused blather of a pop
(like a Catholic Pap) scientist who means that its /substructure/ is
point-like, in that it has no substructure. But this is not what size
is. Size is the same as distance; the elèctròn has a inner and
outter size; the former is your familiar size that depends on its mass
which is by standard the classic radius of over a femtometre. But
scientist pros are too dumb to admit that.
-Aut |
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| FrediFizzx |
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:33 pm |
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"Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1165377457.954395.129630@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Quote: Epud wrote:
As we probably all know the electron has a mass, charge and spin as
some of its main properties. However at the same time, as far as I
have
been informed, the electron is considered to be a point like particle
without a diameter! Does the electron have no size what so ever? If
yes, then how can you have mass located at an infinitely small point?
Disregard Fred's "quantum vacuum charge" gibberish. It's not even
charge at all, and he doesn't grasp how to represent units with causes.
My "gibberish" is supported by the Higgs field concept.
Quote: The "point-like"ness of the elèctròn is a confused blather of a pop
(like a Catholic Pap) scientist who means that its /substructure/ is
point-like, in that it has no substructure. But this is not what size
is. Size is the same as distance; the elèctròn has a inner and
outter size; the former is your familiar size that depends on its mass
which is by standard the classic radius of over a femtometre. But
scientist pros are too dumb to admit that.
Your gibberish has no support at all.
FrediFizzx
Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com |
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| Autymn D. C. |
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:36 pm |
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FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote: My "gibberish" is supported by the Higgs field concept.
You gibberish doesn't know the meanings of words or causes.
Fields/charges are not there always; they must qualify to be there.
Quote: Your gibberish has no support at all.
I'v no gibberish. My reckish is supported by Coulomb's relations.
-Aut |
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| Autymn D. C. |
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:37 pm |
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FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote: My "gibberish" is supported by the Higgs field concept.
Your gibberish doesn't know the meanings of words or causes.
Fields/charges are not there always; they must qualify to be there.
Quote: Your gibberish has no support at all.
I'v no gibberish. My reckish is supported by Coulomb's relations.
-Aut |
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