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Author Message
Don Kelly
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:26 am
Guest
----------------------------
"Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1171026196.227638.152620@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 8, 8:49 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
Do you mean something that can be controlled to appear either capacitive
or
inductive? If so there are devices that can do this. Saturable reactors
in
parallel with capacitors will do this. These donot involve a change in
coercive force but do involve permeability changes.

No, the component may switch between magnetic capacitance and magnetic
inductance, which would differ only on coercance.

If you mean an inductor that acts as a capacitor or a capacitor that acts
as
an inductor- the answer is --forget it.

Forget what, pièzoelèctrets?
----------------------


Capacitive inductance and magnetic capacitance are buzz words that are
contradictory right from the definitions of capacitance and inductance.
As for piezoelectrets- some materials exhibit both piezoelectric and
ferromagnetic properties So.....what about them? please tell me in modern
and technical English.

--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
Autymn D. C.
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:48 am
Guest
On Feb 9, 9:30 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
Capacitive inductance and magnetic capacitance are buzz words that are
contradictory right from the definitions of capacitance and inductance.

Wrong, they are not elèctric properties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_capacitivity

A permanent magnet is a magnetic capacitor. The articul, however,
needs to talk about coercivity. I ask for a component with variabil
coercance in a power circuit.

Quote:
As for piezoelectrets- some materials exhibit both piezoelectric and
ferromagnetic properties So.....what about them? please tell me in modern
and technical English.

Why did you tell me to forget about them?

-Aut
Don Kelly
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:48 am
Guest
----------------------------
"Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1171115316.470838.93940@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 9, 9:30 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
Capacitive inductance and magnetic capacitance are buzz words that are
contradictory right from the definitions of capacitance and inductance.

Wrong, they are not elèctric properties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_capacitivity

A permanent magnet is a magnetic capacitor. The articul, however,
needs to talk about coercivity. I ask for a component with variabil
coercance in a power circuit.

Quote:
As for piezoelectrets- some materials exhibit both piezoelectric and
ferromagnetic properties So.....what about them? please tell me in modern
and technical English.

Why did you tell me to forget about them?

-Aut
----------
The magnetic "capacitivity" in the article, is, by the definition given,
simply the inverse of the reluctance of a magnetic device and is stated as
such (i.e. permeance) can be considered analogous to conductance in an
electrical circuit.
In other words one can say mmf=(reluctance)*flux or can say flux =mmf*
permeance (or capacitivity). To quote from your reference:

"Magnetic capacitivity - is a scalar measure of permeance for an element in
a magnetic circuit"


In effect, you are talking about what most in the English speaking world
call "permeance".
Its units are the same as those of inductance. In effect it is the inverse
of reluctance. The electrical analogue is conductance not capacitive
reactance. All it indicates is that a high capacivity core is a good
magnetic "conductor" and, in spite of what the article says, doesn't
necessarily imply high energy storage.
However the inverse of inductance is not capacitance and "magnetic
capacivity" is not "capacitance", magnetic or otherwise.

To be fair, the references are not from English speaking sources and there
is definitely a translation factor there (even where it mentions magnetic
capacitance, there appears to be some conceptual factors that are screwy in
terms of interpretation and make a mess out of a simple thing). The
translator, in the side reference on magnetic capacitance, doesn't seem to
realise the difference between a capacitive reactance -j(1/wC) (in ohms) and
an inductive susceptance -j(1/wL) (in Siemens or (ohms)^-1 ).

This also has nothing to do with coercivity (couldn't find a definition of
"coercance").
If you want some device where the flux/mmf ratio (or permeance ) changes -
then there are many cases that exist -some desirable and others not
desirable.

Unfortunately, for most devices, where magnetic non-linearity exists -
permeance and reluctance are rather useless in practice except as a
visualisation in terms of an electrical analogue.

So- if you really want variable coercivity -you can simply take a permanent
magnet and apply an external mmf. Then, when used as a permanent magnet, you
will be able to demagnetise it when you want. Of course, it won't
remagnetize by itself.

However, since you persist in using your own brand of language and your own
terms, it is all but impossible to understand what you are wanting or
implying.
--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
Autymn D. C.
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:50 am
Guest
On Feb 10, 8:48 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
In effect, you are talking about what most in the English speaking world
call "permeance".
Its units are the same as those of inductance. In effect it is the inverse
of reluctance. The electrical analogue is conductance not capacitive
reactance. All it indicates is that a high capacivity core is a good
magnetic "conductor" and, in spite of what the article says, doesn't
necessarily imply high energy storage.

Who said anything about reactance? No, the elèctric analog is
permittance which is like polarisation without the resistance. One
can express the potential of a magnetic core in terms of its
inductance, so why not permeance which has the same unit?

Quote:
However the inverse of inductance is not capacitance and "magnetic
capacivity" is not "capacitance", magnetic or otherwise.

-ity is not -ance ever. However, they should be proportional.
Capacitors store work; inductors shift work.

Quote:
To be fair, the references are not from English speaking sources and there
is definitely a translation factor there (even where it mentions magnetic
capacitance, there appears to be some conceptual factors that are screwy in
terms of interpretation and make a mess out of a simple thing). The
translator, in the side reference on magnetic capacitance, doesn't seem to
realise the difference between a capacitive reactance -j(1/wC) (in ohms) and
an inductive susceptance -j(1/wL) (in Siemens or (ohms)^-1 ).

w? What about X?

Quote:
This also has nothing to do with coercivity (couldn't find a definition of
"coercance").
If you want some device where the flux/mmf ratio (or permeance ) changes -
then there are many cases that exist -some desirable and others not
desirable.

-ity is proportional to spatial dimensions. -ance is the bare
property.

Quote:
Unfortunately, for most devices, where magnetic non-linearity exists -
permeance and reluctance are rather useless in practice except as a
visualisation in terms of an electrical analogue.

So- if you really want variable coercivity -you can simply take a permanent
magnet and apply an external mmf. Then, when used as a permanent magnet, you
will be able to demagnetise it when you want. Of course, it won't
remagnetize by itself.

a magnetic reservory

Quote:
However, since you persist in using your own brand of language and your own
terms, it is all but impossible to understand what you are wanting or
implying.

It's a standard, at least.

-Aut
Don Kelly
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:13 am
Guest
"Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1171262440.824906.302140@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 10, 8:48 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
In effect, you are talking about what most in the English speaking world
call "permeance".
Its units are the same as those of inductance. In effect it is the inverse
of reluctance. The electrical analogue is conductance not capacitive
reactance. All it indicates is that a high capacivity core is a good
magnetic "conductor" and, in spite of what the article says, doesn't
necessarily imply high energy storage.

Who said anything about reactance? No, the elèctric analog is
permittance which is like polarisation without the resistance. One
can express the potential of a magnetic core in terms of its
inductance, so why not permeance which has the same unit?
--------
If you follow your original reference down to the marked link "magnetic
capacitor" and follow it, you will end up in references to capacitive
reactance along with a host of other BS.
Here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_capacitance
Read it and see the term "reactance" repeated several times along with the
misapplication nonsense.

Now as to "capacitivity" which is correctly defined in the article as
permeance (and is not capacivity as defined for electric fields) there is no
trouble except that the term is misleading and seems to have mislead the
source of the link to magnetic capacitance.
As for permittance(which is not defined while permitivity is defined) -or
more properly "capacitance" which is the electric FIELD analog to permeance
(flux-charge and mmf-emf). This analog provides no useful benefit but the
electric CIRCUIT analog which is what all the source references discuss,
the analog is conductance-not capacitance.
Note that flux =Permeance*mmf is analogous to current =Conductance*
voltage. One can use circuit theory to analyse a linear magnetic "circuit"
as if it were a resistive circuit.

I should repeat that the only laws truly common to electrical and magnetic
"circuits" in general are Kirchoff's Laws. If the magnetic circuit is
linear, then other resistive circuit concepts may be used.


Also note that for an N turn exciting coil, P=L/(N^2) where the inductance
L =mu*A*(N^2)/l for a simple linear system.
Now while P is a parameter of a magnetic circuit, Inductance is not a
parameter of the magnetic circuit but is an electrical circuit parameter.
Hence inductance or capacitance, which, for electrical circuits have time
dependent e-i relationships are not part of the magnetic circuit model.
The above reference incorrectly attempts an electrical equivalent in terms
of a capacitive reactance.
----------

Quote:
However the inverse of inductance is not capacitance and "magnetic
capacivity" is not "capacitance", magnetic or otherwise.

-ity is not -ance ever. However, they should be proportional.
--------
True, but many -ances are not defined- and the reference you gave me
treated an itivity as an ance.
Artley "Fields and configurations" mentions permeability, permeance, and
permittivity, but not permittance. Another text also makes this
omission-could they be onto something?
-

Capacitors store work; inductors shift work.
NO. Capacitor energy storage is more obvious,-you can disconnect it and walk
away with it and recover it somewhere else (hence shifting work). Inductors
also store energy and will neither require nor release energy as long as the
current doesn't change making it more awkward to disconnect and walk away.
In both cases, energy can be stored and released at another time.
------

Quote:
To be fair, the references are not from English speaking sources and there
is definitely a translation factor there (even where it mentions magnetic
capacitance, there appears to be some conceptual factors that are screwy
in
terms of interpretation and make a mess out of a simple thing). The
translator, in the side reference on magnetic capacitance, doesn't seem to
realise the difference between a capacitive reactance -j(1/wC) (in ohms)
and
an inductive susceptance -j(1/wL) (in Siemens or (ohms)^-1 ).

w? What about X?
--
Since I am using straight ASCII, I am using w to represent angular frequency
2*pi*frequency
Read capacitive reactance and inductive susceptance above if you want X and
1/X. Electric circuit parameters- not magnetic circuit parameters.

Quote:
This also has nothing to do with coercivity (couldn't find a definition of
"coercance").
If you want some device where the flux/mmf ratio (or permeance )
hanges -
then there are many cases that exist -some desirable and others not
desirable.

-ity is proportional to spatial dimensions. -ance is the bare
property.
---------
Permittivity, resistivity, conductivity, permeability are not spatial
related terms. Permeance, resistance and conductance depend on spatial
dimensions. you have it backwards.
-----

Quote:
Unfortunately, for most devices, where magnetic non-linearity exists -
permeance and reluctance are rather useless in practice except as a
visualisation in terms of an electrical analogue.

So- if you really want variable coercivity -you can simply take a
permanent
magnet and apply an external mmf. Then, when used as a permanent magnet,
you
will be able to demagnetise it when you want. Of course, it won't
remagnetize by itself.

a magnetic reservory
--------
meaning ??????????

Quote:
However, since you persist in using your own brand of language and your
own
terms, it is all but impossible to understand what you are wanting or
implying.

It's a standard, at least.
--
But a standard that doesn't aid communication is substandard except for
talking to oneself.
--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
Autymn D. C.
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:56 am
Guest
On Feb 12, 9:13 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
If you follow your original reference down to the marked link "magnetic
capacitor" and follow it, you will end up in references to capacitive
reactance along with a host of other BS.
Here it is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_capacitance
Read it and see the term "reactance" repeated several times along with the
misapplication nonsense.

Now as to "capacitivity" which is correctly defined in the article as
permeance (and is not capacivity as defined for electric fields) there is no
trouble except that the term is misleading and seems to have mislead the
source of the link to magnetic capacitance.

Oh, Sidam wrote that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sidam.
It was still the neahhest thing to magnetic capacitance I angot from
Wikipedia, as it had a followup to magnetic potential--O wait, that's
not potential either.

However, lookkee here: http://dictionary.com/search?q=specific%20inductive%20capacity.
It's another term for relative permittivity.

And a /science/ dictionary calls it magnetic permittivity: http://
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relative%20permittivity.

Quote:
As for permittance(which is not defined while permitivity is defined) -or
more properly "capacitance" which is the electric FIELD analog to permeance
(flux-charge and mmf-emf). This analog provides no useful benefit but the
electric CIRCUIT analog which is what all the source references discuss,
the analog is conductance-not capacitance.

Wrong, there is both elèctric and magnetic flux, so you can't disjoin
flux and charge. (I find flux extremely silly and bothersom; what use
is it when there is already the field and partial potentials? One day
I sat down with my elèctronics text and a scrap to see if I could
straihten out all the confusent EM terms and if I could deriv the
magnetic analòg of charge that looks fit with Coulomb's law. It
didn't seem to work for flux, so I gave up and calld it spin--"spin"
is a wrong term, however; it should be "trend".) They should get rid
of all the other properties with the same units, and adopt more
geometric terms, like "arcamp" and "arccurrent" instead of amp-turns (-
loops better) and mmf. The use of emf and mmf are completely wrong:
They do not represent force, or work, or anything of the ilk. And
neither do field and potential in EM represent force or ènèrjy, which
is why they're bullshit.

C = Q/V; L|P =?= I/V

L = Vt/I = Zt

Yep, it's not useful because it's wrong. Current is not a fundamental
property whereas charge is, even if the retarded [Francish] scientists
behind the SI believe that the ampère (A) goes there. It is the trend
that is the magnetic analòg to charge, proportional to h or Et, not
magnetic flux or lines or current or permeance or any of that shit.

Quote:
I should repeat that the only laws truly common to electrical and magnetic
"circuits" in general are Kirchoff's Laws. If the magnetic circuit is
linear, then other resistive circuit concepts may be used.

Voltage is, however, proportional to partial charge. The analusis
still needs the magnetic likewise.

Quote:
However the inverse of inductance is not capacitance and "magnetic
capacivity" is not "capacitance", magnetic or otherwise.

-ity is not -ance ever. However, they should be proportional.
--------
True, but many -ances are not defined- and the reference you gave me
treated an itivity as an ance.
Artley "Fields and configurations" mentions permeability, permeance, and
permittivity, but not permittance. Another text also makes this
omission-could they be onto something?

their gap in dimensional grasp? Permittivity and permeability should
not be related by a velocity if they're supposed to be analògs. I
think that's the Francs' fault also. What if permittance is also
related to permeance by a velocity?

Quote:
-
Capacitors store work; inductors shift work.
NO. Capacitor energy storage is more obvious,-you can disconnect it and walk
away with it and recover it somewhere else (hence shifting work). Inductors
also store energy and will neither require nor release energy as long as the
current doesn't change making it more awkward to disconnect and walk away.
In both cases, energy can be stored and released at another time.

Inductors must induce. Capacitors must capace. The point is the
component must identify with its behavred without other components,
such as the wire and supply in the circuit. When the inductor is
disconnected, it chokes itself. It depends on a capacitor to live.

C = q/V = rq/kQ
L = Vtt/q = kQtt/qr

t/q I could accept as analògic, but not tt/q.

Quote:
-ity is proportional to spatial dimensions. -ance is the bare
property.
---------
Permittivity, resistivity, conductivity, permeability are not spatial
related terms. Permeance, resistance and conductance depend on spatial
dimensions. you have it backwards.

resistivity: O·m·m/m
resistance: O

-ity is -ance proportional to space. -ance is of a thing.

Quote:
So- if you really want variable coercivity -you can simply take a
permanent
magnet and apply an external mmf. Then, when used as a permanent magnet,
you
will be able to demagnetise it when you want. Of course, it won't
remagnetize by itself.

a magnetic reservory
--------
meaning ??????????

It's magnetic instead of thèrmic. I straihtend out the dumb Francish
spelling of réservoir, or simply tank.

Never mind, I found a good leed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Reluctance#Applications.

-Aut
Don Kelly
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:58 pm
Guest
"Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1171353415.515277.46510@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 12, 9:13 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
If you follow your original reference down to the marked link "magnetic
capacitor" and follow it, you will end up in references to capacitive
reactance along with a host of other BS.
Here it is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_capacitance
Read it and see the term "reactance" repeated several times along with the
misapplication nonsense.

Now as to "capacitivity" which is correctly defined in the article as
permeance (and is not capacivity as defined for electric fields) there is
no
trouble except that the term is misleading and seems to have mislead the
source of the link to magnetic capacitance.

Oh, Sidam wrote that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sidam.
It was still the neahhest thing to magnetic capacitance I angot from
Wikipedia, as it had a followup to magnetic potential--O wait, that's
not potential either.

However, lookkee here:
http://dictionary.com/search?q=specific%20inductive%20capacity.
It's another term for relative permittivity.
---
Read again- it refers to "the effect of a dielectric body in producing
static electric induction as compared with that of some other body or bodies
referred to as a standard."
In other words it is an electrostatic term and has nothing to do with
magnetic devices or terms.
----------
And a /science/ dictionary calls it magnetic permittivity: http://
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relative%20permittivity.
----------
I tried your reference above and google indicated that it did not match
anything.
----------------
Quote:
As for permittance(which is not defined while permitivity is defined) -or
more properly "capacitance" which is the electric FIELD analog to
permeance
(flux-charge and mmf-emf). This analog provides no useful benefit but the
electric CIRCUIT analog which is what all the source references
discuss,
the analog is conductance-not capacitance.

Wrong, there is both elèctric and magnetic flux, so you can't disjoin
flux and charge. (I find flux extremely silly and bothersom; what use
is it when there is already the field and partial potentials? One day
I sat down with my elèctronics text and a scrap to see if I could
straihten out all the confusent EM terms and if I could deriv the
magnetic analòg of charge that looks fit with Coulomb's law. It
didn't seem to work for flux, so I gave up and calld it spin--"spin"
is a wrong term, however; it should be "trend".) They should get rid
of all the other properties with the same units, and adopt more
geometric terms, like "arcamp" and "arccurrent" instead of amp-turns (-
loops better) and mmf. The use of emf and mmf are completely wrong:
They do not represent force, or work, or anything of the ilk. And
neither do field and potential in EM represent force or ènèrjy, which
is why they're bullshit.
----------
Oh dear, why not go back to abvolts, abamps and statvolts etc.? Give us a
break.
The terms emf, mmf do include unfortunately the word "force" I agree with
you there- these are anachronisms which have stuck but any sophomore knows
what they refer to so, in the absense of any more convenient terms such as
potential difference, we use them. Field never did represent energy or
force- nothing wrong with that. Actually electric potential (difference) is
defined in terms of work or energy. No BS involved in these terms.
------
C = Q/V;
-------
OK
-----
L|P =?= I/V
------
Nonsense If you mean L/P by L|P then L/P =N^2 which is unitless and only
reflects the reality that one could have 1A in N turns or N Amps in 1 turn
which is equivalent.
-------

L = Vt/I = Zt-
-------
Are you trying to say v(t) =L(di(t)/dt)? and rewriting it avoiding the
calculus? Then all of sudden bringing in the idea of impedance -incorrectly.
----------
Yep, it's not useful because it's wrong. Current is not a fundamental
property whereas charge is, even if the retarded [Francish] scientists
behind the SI believe that the ampère (A) goes there. It is the trend
that is the magnetic analòg to charge, proportional to h or Et, not
magnetic flux or lines or current or permeance or any of that shit.
------
While current is not the fundamental property, the choice of the ampere as
the base unit is reasonable. The rest of your statement is gibberish.
--------

Quote:
I should repeat that the only laws truly common to electrical and magnetic
"circuits" in general are Kirchoff's Laws. If the magnetic circuit is
linear, then other resistive circuit concepts may be used.

Voltage is, however, proportional to partial charge. The analusis
still needs the magnetic likewise.
-----------
Are you trying to make a point hete? if so you have failed.
--------
Quote:
However the inverse of inductance is not capacitance and "magnetic
capacivity" is not "capacitance", magnetic or otherwise.

-ity is not -ance ever. However, they should be proportional.
--------
True, but many -ances are not defined- and the reference you gave me
treated an itivity as an ance.
Artley "Fields and configurations" mentions permeability, permeance, and
permittivity, but not permittance. Another text also makes this
omission-could they be onto something?

their gap in dimensional grasp? Permittivity and permeability should
not be related by a velocity if they're supposed to be analògs. I
think that's the Francs' fault also. What if permittance is also
related to permeance by a velocity?
---------
First of all, permittivity and permeability are mathematically analogous
because one can write equations in the same form for both electrostatic and
magnetostatic situations. Whether they are related or not is not of concern
as the two "static" situations are independent.
The velocity relationship doesn't destroy any analogies.

Quote:
-
Capacitors store work; inductors shift work.
NO. Capacitor energy storage is more obvious,-you can disconnect it and
walk
away with it and recover it somewhere else (hence shifting work).
Inductors
also store energy and will neither require nor release energy as long as
the
current doesn't change making it more awkward to disconnect and walk away.
In both cases, energy can be stored and released at another time.

Inductors must induce. Capacitors must capace. The point is the
component must identify with its behavred without other components,
such as the wire and supply in the circuit. When the inductor is
disconnected, it chokes itself. It depends on a capacitor to live.


C = q/V = rq/kQ
L = Vtt/q = kQtt/qr

t/q I could accept as analògic, but not tt/q.
---------------
Only one point that is correct appears in all the above blather.
That is with regard to behaviour.
we can write i(t) =C(dv/dt) (corresponding to q(t)=Cv(t)), and
v(t)=L(di/dt) corresponding to v(t)=L d(dq/dt)/dt as two different
i(t)-v(t) relationships -which appears to be what you are awkwardly and
questionably trying to say. Use of current (which is easily measurable) as
a variable is simpler and more practical than using q which is not so
easily measured.
we can also write i(t) =Gv(t) as another relationship
Any real device has all three of these properties but can be represented by
a combination of ideal elements.
However, to return to a magnetic element only the analog of i(t)=Gv(t)
exists in the magnetic circuit and even there it isn't generally of much
use.
I did not say that there is an analog between C and L. although one can look
at C=(epsilon)A/l and inductance is (mu*N^2)A/l which is of the same
form. The behaviour in an electric circuit is not a direct analog but is a
dual analog (see duality in electric circuits) as indicated above.
---------

Quote:
-ity is proportional to spatial dimensions. -ance is the bare
property.
---------
Permittivity, resistivity, conductivity, permeability are not spatial
related terms. Permeance, resistance and conductance depend on spatial
dimensions. you have it backwards.

resistivity: O·m·m/m
resistance: O
-------
No resistivity is expressed for a unit volume . resistance and other ances
depend on the actual physical dimensions.
-------------

-ity is -ance proportional to space. -ance is of a thing.

Quote:
So- if you really want variable coercivity -you can simply take a
permanent
magnet and apply an external mmf. Then, when used as a permanent magnet,
you
will be able to demagnetise it when you want. Of course, it won't
remagnetize by itself.

a magnetic reservory
--------
meaning ??????????

It's magnetic instead of thèrmic. I straihtend out the dumb Francish
spelling of réservoir, or simply tank.
-----------
And simply made things unclear. That is not what I call straightening out
some thing.

Never mind, I found a good leed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Reluctance#Applications.

-------
One of which I had mentioned before. Saturable reactors. In effect, you have
now finally realised that what you were looking for is what I suggested was
what you wanted to consider.
Now you will have to find some good texts on electromagnetic energy
conversion. Is your math up to it? If it is at the level that you are using
above- it isn't.
Anyhow, I think this thread has pretty well had it.

Bye' and good luck,
--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
Autymn D. C.
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:59 am
Guest
On Feb 13, 7:58 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
Read again- it refers to "the effect of a dielectric body in producing
static electric induction as compared with that of some other body or bodies
referred to as a standard."
In other words it is an electrostatic term and has nothing to do with
magnetic devices or terms.

That's because it's linked to permittivity, yet it still uses
"capacity". That could be the reason why the foreigner used
"capacitivity" for permeance.

Quote:
----------
And a /science/ dictionary calls it magnetic permittivity: http://
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relative%20permittivity.
----------
I tried your reference above and google indicated that it did not match
anything.

punctuation

Quote:
Oh dear, why not go back to abvolts, abamps and statvolts etc.? Give us a
break.

My complaints are because the terms are a confuse as they are. Don't
you see they make it hard for everyone to learn E and M? As for the
metric, the one I made from the ground-up is much better than any of
these engineers could think of. Shh.

Quote:
The terms emf, mmf do include unfortunately the word "force" I agree with
you there- these are anachronisms which have stuck but any sophomore knows
what they refer to so, in the absense of any more convenient terms such as
potential difference, we use them. Field never did represent energy or
force- nothing wrong with that. Actually electric potential (difference) is
defined in terms of work or energy. No BS involved in these terms.

I came up with better elèctric terms for voltage and the other partial
potentials, but they're a secret.

The field is a spatial plot of something, from maths, but definitions
of the forces' fields refer to the plot of force or strength. So they
should stick to the whole enchilada: Plot the force first, which is
the interaction's or force!'s field, then call any of its potential
shares under names other than the interaction's or force's field.

Quote:
------
C = Q/V;
-------
OK
-----
L|P =?= I/V
------
Nonsense If you mean L/P by L|P then L/P =N^2 which is unitless and only
reflects the reality that one could have 1A in N turns or N Amps in 1 turn
which is equivalent.

| means or. It was a test of your analògy.

Quote:
L = Vt/I = Zt-
-------
Are you trying to say v(t) =L(di(t)/dt)? and rewriting it avoiding the
calculus? Then all of sudden bringing in the idea of impedance -incorrectly.

I didn't put that - there. Okay, I will use lowercase for a variabil
or increment:

L = Vt/i = zt|xt; x = z when r = 0

Quote:
Yep, it's not useful because it's wrong. Current is not a fundamental
property whereas charge is, even if the retarded [Francish] scientists
behind the SI believe that the ampère (A) goes there. It is the trend
that is the magnetic analòg to charge, proportional to h or Et, not
magnetic flux or lines or current or permeance or any of that shit.
------
While current is not the fundamental property, the choice of the ampere as
the base unit is reasonable. The rest of your statement is gibberish.

It's not, and it's not. What'shisname, Mike?, used to spam the
newsgroups sayan that mass is not fundamental but dependent on force,
which be fundamental. This is the same trash.

Quote:
Voltage is, however, proportional to partial charge. The analusis
still needs the magnetic likewise.
-----------
Are you trying to make a point hete? if so you have failed.

Each charge comes with a fundamental magnetic property, that is not
current. It depends on its nonlinear momenta from quantum mekanics.

Quote:
their gap in dimensional grasp? Permittivity and permeability should
not be related by a velocity if they're supposed to be analògs. I
think that's the Francs' fault also. What if permittance is also
related to permeance by a velocity?
---------
First of all, permittivity and permeability are mathematically analogous
because one can write equations in the same form for both electrostatic and
magnetostatic situations. Whether they are related or not is not of concern
as the two "static" situations are independent.
The velocity relationship doesn't destroy any analogies.

Velocity, however, isn't acceleration.

Quote:
Inductors must induce. Capacitors must capace. The point is the
component must identify with its behavred without other components,
such as the wire and supply in the circuit. When the inductor is
disconnected, it chokes itself. It depends on a capacitor to live.

C = q/V = rq/kQ
L = Vtt/q = kQtt/qr

t/q I could accept as analògic, but not tt/q.
---------------
Only one point that is correct appears in all the above blather.
That is with regard to behaviour.
we can write i(t) =C(dv/dt) (corresponding to q(t)=Cv(t)), and
v(t)=L(di/dt) corresponding to v(t)=L d(dq/dt)/dt as two different
i(t)-v(t) relationships -which appears to be what you are awkwardly and
questionably trying to say. Use of current (which is easily measurable) as
a variable is simpler and more practical than using q which is not so
easily measured.

You can only know current if you already know voltage or impedance, or
impedance and power. You can only know the former two if you know
force. And as we already found out the divisibility of that force, we
should ground our metes on charge and its associat trend.

Quote:
we can also write i(t) =Gv(t) as another relationship
Any real device has all three of these properties but can be represented by
a combination of ideal elements.
However, to return to a magnetic element only the analog of i(t)=Gv(t)
exists in the magnetic circuit and even there it isn't generally of much
use.
I did not say that there is an analog between C and L. although one can look
at C=(epsilon)A/l and inductance is (mu*N^2)A/l which is of the same
form. The behaviour in an electric circuit is not a direct analog but is a
dual analog (see duality in electric circuits) as indicated above.

They're of the same form because they're a factor apart in velocity;
that is how C and L are similar, but they aren't the pair I was
a'looking for.

Quote:
-ity is proportional to spatial dimensions. -ance is the bare
property.
---------
Permittivity, resistivity, conductivity, permeability are not spatial
related terms. Permeance, resistance and conductance depend on spatial
dimensions. you have it backwards.

resistivity: O·m·m/m
resistance: O
-------
No resistivity is expressed for a unit volume . resistance and other ances
depend on the actual physical dimensions.

Resistivity is for a material for any size; that's why the product is
there. Resistance is for a material of one size; that's what the bare
property is.

Quote:
It's magnetic instead of thèrmic. I straihtend out the dumb Francish
spelling of réservoir, or simply tank.
-----------
And simply made things unclear. That is not what I call straightening out
some thing.

One cannot -ing anything. The world is unclear, which isn't the same
as not clear.

Quote:
Never mind, I found a good leed:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Reluctance#Applications.
-------
One of which I had mentioned before. Saturable reactors. In effect, you have
now finally realised that what you were looking for is what I suggested was
what you wanted to consider.
Now you will have to find some good texts on electromagnetic energy
conversion. Is your math up to it? If it is at the level that you are using
above- it isn't.
Anyhow, I think this thread has pretty well had it.

I know and wit calculus, vectors and matrices, already. But I don't
agree with its writing. I don't agree with the dot product for
vectors either.

-Aut
Don Kelly
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:25 am
Guest
"Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1171436377.844838.83200@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 13, 7:58 pm, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Quote:
Read again- it refers to "the effect of a dielectric body in producing
static electric induction as compared with that of some other body or
bodies
referred to as a standard."
In other words it is an electrostatic term and has nothing to do with
magnetic devices or terms.

That's because it's linked to permittivity, yet it still uses
"capacity". That could be the reason why the foreigner used
"capacitivity" for permeance.
-------
Why the term capacivity is used is possibly a problem with translation. If
one used literal word for word translation of technical texts, strange
results occur. That is more likely the case. Having compared side by side
English, German and French versions of the same material, the literal
translation can lead to garbage.


Quote:
----------
And a /science/ dictionary calls it magnetic permittivity: http://
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relative%20permittivity.
----------
I tried your reference above and google indicated that it did not match
anything.

punctuation
--
Not mine- I copied your reference
---

Quote:
Oh dear, why not go back to abvolts, abamps and statvolts etc.? Give us a
break.

My complaints are because the terms are a confuse as they are. Don't
you see they make it hard for everyone to learn E and M? As for the
metric, the one I made from the ground-up is much better than any of
these engineers could think of. Shh.

---------
Bullfeathers. When you substitute a hard to measure item for an easily
measured item and a second derivative for a first derivative, you are not
making improvements.
------

Quote:
The terms emf, mmf do include unfortunately the word "force" I agree with
you there- these are anachronisms which have stuck but any sophomore
knows
what they refer to so, in the absense of any more convenient terms such
as
potential difference, we use them. Field never did represent energy or
force- nothing wrong with that. Actually electric potential (difference)
is
defined in terms of work or energy. No BS involved in these terms.

I came up with better elèctric terms for voltage and the other partial
potentials, but they're a secret.
---
No Kidding- I suggest that is a good way to keep them.
----------

The field is a spatial plot of something, from maths, but definitions
of the forces' fields refer to the plot of force or strength. So they
should stick to the whole enchilada: Plot the force first, which is
the interaction's or force!'s field, then call any of its potential
shares under names other than the interaction's or force's field.

--------
Duke University's Artley "Fields and Configurations", Holt Rinehart, 1965
has, in the first line of the introduction.
" A field is said to exist in a region when and where certain effects may be
observed." He then gives examples such as thermal, magnetic, acoustic,
electric, gravity, and psychological. They are not confined to "force"
fields
Other sources concur, including my old PhD advisor.
-------
Quote:
------
C = Q/V;
-------
OK
-----
L|P =?= I/V
------
Nonsense If you mean L/P by L|P then L/P =N^2 which is unitless and only
reflects the reality that one could have 1A in N turns or N Amps in 1 turn
which is equivalent.

| means or. It was a test of your analògy.
-------
L=I or V is meaningless. Hardly a test.


Quote:
L = Vt/I = Zt-
-------
Are you trying to say v(t) =L(di(t)/dt)? and rewriting it avoiding the
calculus? Then all of sudden bringing in the idea of
impedance -incorrectly.

I didn't put that - there. Okay, I will use lowercase for a variabil
or increment:

L = Vt/i = zt|xt; x = z when r = 0
------
Is this expected to mean anything.? As expressed, it is gibberish and the
best translation that I can get, implies that it is wrong. Define your
variables as you seem to be trying to mix phasor and time variables
together- which is garbage.
----

Quote:
Yep, it's not useful because it's wrong. Current is not a fundamental
property whereas charge is, even if the retarded [Francish] scientists
behind the SI believe that the ampère (A) goes there. It is the trend
that is the magnetic analòg to charge, proportional to h or Et, not
magnetic flux or lines or current or permeance or any of that shit.
------
While current is not the fundamental property, the choice of the ampere as
the base unit is reasonable. The rest of your statement is gibberish.

It's not, and it's not. What'shisname, Mike?, used to spam the
newsgroups sayan that mass is not fundamental but dependent on force,
which be fundamental. This is the same trash.
---------
There is no attempt to do the equivalent. Sometimes it is easier to work
with charge and other times it is easier to consider current. It is not a
big deal if the base MKS unit reflects what is most useful as we all know
the relationship between charge and current.

Quote:
Voltage is, however, proportional to partial charge. The analusis
still needs the magnetic likewise.
-----------
Are you trying to make a point hete? if so you have failed.

Each charge comes with a fundamental magnetic property, that is not
current. It depends on its nonlinear momenta from quantum mekanics.
----------
Agreed that a moving charge is the basis of the magnetic field. So??? Since
we don't have a handle on the charge magnitude or velocity, all we can do is
use what we can observe. Physics is based on the observable.
-------

Quote:
their gap in dimensional grasp? Permittivity and permeability should
not be related by a velocity if they're supposed to be analògs. I
think that's the Francs' fault also. What if permittance is also
related to permeance by a velocity?
---------
First of all, permittivity and permeability are mathematically analogous
because one can write equations in the same form for both electrostatic
and
magnetostatic situations. Whether they are related or not is not of
concern
as the two "static" situations are independent.
The velocity relationship doesn't destroy any analogies.

Velocity, however, isn't acceleration.
----
Who said it was? Again a non-sequitor response.
--------

Quote:
Inductors must induce. Capacitors must capace. The point is the
component must identify with its behavred without other components,
such as the wire and supply in the circuit. When the inductor is
disconnected, it chokes itself. It depends on a capacitor to live.

C = q/V = rq/kQ
L = Vtt/q = kQtt/qr

t/q I could accept as analògic, but not tt/q.
---------------
Only one point that is correct appears in all the above blather.
That is with regard to behaviour.
we can write i(t) =C(dv/dt) (corresponding to q(t)=Cv(t)), and
v(t)=L(di/dt) corresponding to v(t)=L d(dq/dt)/dt as two different
i(t)-v(t) relationships -which appears to be what you are awkwardly and
questionably trying to say. Use of current (which is easily measurable)
as
a variable is simpler and more practical than using q which is not so
easily measured.

You can only know current if you already know voltage or impedance, or
impedance and power. You can only know the former two if you know
force. And as we already found out the divisibility of that force, we
should ground our metes on charge and its associat trend.
-----------
Bullshit- and I am being polite.
----

Quote:
we can also write i(t) =Gv(t) as another relationship
Any real device has all three of these properties but can be represented
by
a combination of ideal elements.
However, to return to a magnetic element only the analog of i(t)=Gv(t)
exists in the magnetic circuit and even there it isn't generally of much
use.
I did not say that there is an analog between C and L. although one can
look
at C=(epsilon)A/l and inductance is (mu*N^2)A/l which is of the same
form. The behaviour in an electric circuit is not a direct analog but is a
dual analog (see duality in electric circuits) as indicated above.

They're of the same form because they're a factor apart in velocity;
that is how C and L are similar, but they aren't the pair I was
a'looking for.
--------
The form has nothing to do with velocity. It has a lot to do with observed
relationships.
Note that one can have an analog electrical and mechanical systems which are
not related but follow similar relationships.
----------

Quote:
-ity is proportional to spatial dimensions. -ance is the bare
property.
---------
Permittivity, resistivity, conductivity, permeability are not spatial
related terms. Permeance, resistance and conductance depend on spatial
dimensions. you have it backwards.

resistivity: O·m·m/m
resistance: O
-------
No resistivity is expressed for a unit volume . resistance and other ances
depend on the actual physical dimensions.

Resistivity is for a material for any size; that's why the product is
there. Resistance is for a material of one size; that's what the bare
property is.
-------
True so the size counts in resistance but not in resistivity- that is what I
was trying to tell you. The bare property of the material is resistivity
while resistance is dependent on resistivity (size independent) and the
material dimensions.
-----------

Quote:
It's magnetic instead of thèrmic. I straihtend out the dumb Francish
spelling of réservoir, or simply tank.
-----------
And simply made things unclear. That is not what I call straightening out
some thing.

One cannot -ing anything. The world is unclear, which isn't the same
as not clear.

Quote:
Never mind, I found a good leed:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Reluctance#Applications.
-------
One of which I had mentioned before. Saturable reactors. In effect, you
have
now finally realised that what you were looking for is what I suggested
was
what you wanted to consider.
Now you will have to find some good texts on electromagnetic energy
conversion. Is your math up to it? If it is at the level that you are
using
above- it isn't.
Anyhow, I think this thread has pretty well had it.

I know and wit calculus, vectors and matrices, already. But I don't
agree with its writing. I don't agree with the dot product for
vectors either.
-------
Oh goodie, you have reached sophomore math. Beowolf, in his knowledge of
science, would applaud you. No-one else will.
You seem to want to live in your own world, communicating with your navel.
So be it.

Just out of curiosity, what, of anything that works well and fits observed
reality, do you agree with?

There is no point in continuing this thread.

Goodbye.

--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
 
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