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PM
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:53 pm
Guest
mainframetech wrote:
Quote:
PM wrote:

This kind of thing gets wide publicity and can severely damage trust in
the medical profession. But it does so because everyone expects
highest ethical and scientific standards of doctors -- in surveys they
always comes in within the top two or three most trusted professions.

I suspect doctors were more trustworthy than most other occupations
at one time just because people trusted them more in a very important
area to them, and the doctors got into the business for more altruistic
reasons. But over time I believe doctors have allowed themselves to
become more like the rest of us.
Somehow the same standards are not expected of others who offer medical
treatments to seriously ill people. Why is that? And how does the
unsatisfactory behaviour of some doctors justify routinely abysmal
standards of ethical and scientific behaviour in a massive alternative
cancer industry?
I certainly agree with you that alternate medicine companies are no
different than normal drug companies in their singleminded pursuit of
the dollar. I hope we can all agree that a corporation has NO other
purpose than to show a profit for the investors. Any action on their
part serves only that goal.

This matter is widely misrepresented. I was involved in it, performing
endoscopies on ulcer patients at the time. It was very easy to show
that the germ was present in most ulcer patients, which was what the
Nobel prize winner showed. That was never in doubt.
I am not angry at any doctor for following the current rituals and
knowledge, particularly because there is too much to keep track of and
research for their patients. When they split up into specialties it
may have helped a little a long time ago, but now it's all getting away
from the poor medic that is trying to keep people healthy in the midst
of a blitz of information, some of which may conflict with others.<No
way to be able to keep up with promising treatments. It must be much
easier to see a disease and prescribe the current pill for it and on to
the next patient banging at the door. This overload of the physician
is one of the reasons I recommend people take a hand in their own
health decisions, including researching what physicians have to say.

It wasn't like that in this instance. Doctors like myself were *very
interested* in the proposition and closely following the literature. I
started doing biopsies on my own patients looking for the bug
immediately after the first ever paper was published. But it was a
few years before I started advising its use to GPs, for the reasons
mentioned. We had to await longer term studies that took time to set
up and reach publication.

The ordinary doctor mostly doesn't rely on the primary literature, he
expects others to do that for him. A network of specialists (like
myself) and various professional organisations keep up with the
literature and offer opinion and advice that he is expected to keep up
with. Sometimes we have to say --" the evidence is not yet in, stick
to present treatments for now."


Quote:

I understand that the pathologist who found the drug now alleges that
he encountered unwarranted medical skepticism But is it any wonder
that those of us entrusted with the direct care of patients waited
until there were enough longer term clinical studies (and with simpler
and safer treatment programs) to prove that long term ulcer healing
could be achieved by treating the germ? All this took time, but as
soon as the right data was available everyone came on board.

Alleges? If he speaks out against his treatment by the medical
community he is only alleging?

I am not sure what "treatment" you are talking about. His papers were
published and immediately widely discussed. As stated, even this
humble surgeon was able to quickly confirm his basic claim. I can
understand that as a pathologist with little awareness of the clinical
ramifications that I have mentioned, he might have been a bit miffed
at the slowness of incorporation of treating the germ into routine
practice. ( Incidentally, that was despite considerable efforts from
the drug companies selling the initially-used antibiotics. )

Quote:
The sound I hear about the medical
community is that it doesn't allege, just always states facts. Smile

Can I have an example of that? In my experience medical discussions
are littered with "the evidence suggests -- " and on the available
evidence " and most doctors accept that ALL scientific knowledge is
tentative to some degree or other. You are far more likely to find
rigid belief on skimpy evidence outside of the mainstream.


Quote:
As to waiting for better studies, or for everyone to get together and
have a consensus, fine for ulcers. But there are people that come to
these boards that don't have the time to wait for consensus, they need
a possible treatment now. They've often already been through the
medical community, and if still dissatisfied, are looking for
alternatives.


I wholly agree. Yet should what desperately ill people are prepared
to try be allowed to become the marketing yardstick for a massive
alternattve cancer industry, , * and even defended on that basis* ?
The sick patient has no ethical or scientific responsibilies to
consider and mostly has nothing upon which to judge the relative
methods of alternative treatments, (for the very same reason that it is
all about marleting not science.).

I explain the medical position on this on my web site with regard to
cancer treatments ---

"As an aside, cancer sufferers might reasonably ask: "why be so strict
with the evidence, when many of us are mortally ill? Why not use
anything that might help?" Part of the answer is that once one method
was accepted on dubious evidence, it would be impossible to resist all
the others. They can all marshal about the same levels of public
support and anecdote. The mainstream would soon be encumbered with the
same frustrating uncertainties and toss-a-coin choices that afflict the
alternative scene. Cancer sufferers would be justifiably clamouring
for often expensive and complex regimes. No health care system could
cope.

Note a regrettable clash of perspectives. The cancer sufferer can
afford to give "alternatives" considerable benefit of the doubt, when
acting at their own expense and risk.. Doctors, on the other hand,
must be reasonably sure something works before endorsing it for routine
medical care. "

End quote

Quote:
I know this all sounds a bit off the wall, but I would suggest
doubting and researching almost any diagnosis you get from a doctor,
starting with a second opinion, then books and then the internet. In
my own experience, I might well have been in a bad way right now,
possibly dead, if I had believed the first 2 doctors I spoke with about
a particular physical problem.

Even doctors making mistakes does not elevate poor behaviour in others.

"poor behavior" is a matter of opinion. How people react when a doctor makes a bad diagnosis may depend on what was going on at the time, and what the perceived intent of the doctor was, as well as a number of other factors. Doctors are human and as well as making mistakes, may be doing things for personal reasons, or just plain not care about patients and only be looking for the bucks.
Actually, Doctors or people in general may both be acting with poor
behavior, and may look just the same to a third party onlooker.


The problem arises when the overgeneralisations come in. "I was
harmed by a bad doctor" becomes the reason to despise a whole
profession.

Regards

Peter Moran

www.cancerwatcher.com
madiba
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:25 am
Guest
mainframetech <choughton@insidefsi.net> wrote:

Quote:
Madiba,
For questions like the cure for the pneumonia, I suggest going back
to the original producers of the info.
It was just a comment on the situation in the 3rd world actually. The

cure for malaria being several times cheaper than a (non-malarial)
antibiotic.

Quote:
But if you want to keep up with
something that I believe needs to be looked into and is used by a few
people now, it's easy enough to search on 'Artemisinin' and convince
yourself one way or the other. My original intent here was to present
enough info for folks to go look up Artemisinin as a possible cancer
treatment that is safe, painless and cheap, since the average person
can get it here.
Safe, painless and cheap doesnt automatically mean it will work,

unfortunately.

Quote:
For anecdotal evidence, for those that find that useful, just add
the phrase 'my cancer' to a google search on Artemisinin. While these
stories are not evidence that most doctors will listen to, I believe
they have some value for the average person.
.. :-/

So 'average' people should be satisfied with anecdotal evidence and
don't need proof from peer-review journals, huh?
Wake up and smell the roses guy.
--
madiba
mainframetech
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:44 am
Guest
Peter,
Quote:
The problem arises when the overgeneralisations come in. "I was
harmed by a bad doctor" becomes the reason to despise a whole
profession.

I'm heartened that we are sounding more in agreement than at the
start of our forum debacle here. I'm minded to relate a joke that I
recently heard; It is 99% of lawyers that give the other 1% a bad
name. Forgive me, I'm just kidding and don't mean the same of doctors.


Quote:
But it was a few years before I started advising its use to GPs, for the reasons
mentioned. We had to await longer term studies that took time to set
up and reach publication.

I have no axe to grind with physicians that do their best for their
patients, but I recognize how difficult it would be to keep up with
what is going on in medicine and care for patients at the same time.
My own primary care physician is running around like a chicken with its
head cut off trying to see all his patients each day, and has no time
just to sit and browse the journals or even the internet for novel
cures that may or may not apply to his cases.
I mentioned Artemisinin to him and gave him some of the backup
info, and he had to admit later that he had not had the time to check
it out. Personally, I think he had been trained to look straight ahead
where told, and not take any shortcuts which can sometimes lead to
career disaster. This was after I had proven something efficacious to
him in another disease that he didn't know about. There is a community
that calls themselves scientists and many other job categories that
have aligned with them, that build every conclusion and fact learned,
on empirical evidence usually gained at cost in time and great effort.
This community has made a number of mistakes and erroneous
prognostications, sometimes at great cost to others. Yes, I know they
have also done great good too using these tools. But that does not
mean that a humble villager in a third world country doesn't have the
cure for some horrible disease that modern medicine has been battling
for years. Of course, the villager doesn't know all the scientific
rigamarole for presenting his discovery or knowledge, so it is usually
cast aside by the powers that be who are comfortable in their methods
and aware that the villager didn't do any peer-reviewed publishing, or
officially sanctioned studies or trials and therefor has nothing to
offer. Of course, in the case of Artemisinin working so well in
killing malaria, and costing much less than the patented drugs, and
having no real side effects to humans, they would have been wrong for
not listening, and then quickly going through some rigamarole to get
his knowledge into the mainstream to aid sufferers. "Quickly" is
something we can do sometimes when we happen to get the right person in
the right position who will cut through the red tape that so many
bureaucrats hug to their breast, and get on with alleviating suffering
and death. The Gates Foundation showed itself to be in that category.
This is a different group of people I'm talking about that does things
in a different way than the 'scientific community', but they don't
necessarily accept just anything that sounds good. They just don't
have need for or have time for the empirical method. They will make
mistakes too, but also have successes.

From my point of view, we need to be tolerant of others that act in a
reasonably sane way and not attempt to shut them down because they
arrive at solutions in a different way. I give credit to the chinese
when they put local 'native' healers into hospitals with the
scientifically trained doctors. Both groups said they had learned
things from the other.

Chris

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/Artemisinin.cfm
 
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